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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2007Diesel in a gas engine
I recently pumped 10 gallons of diesel into my truck which has a 14 gallon tank. It had 4 gallons of gas at the time. The fault lies with the distributor who accidently filled the store's unleaded tank with diesel. A large number of customers were affected. Anyway, I was able to drive my truck about 100 miles making it home in the middle of the night. The next morning, my truck wouldn't start. Thinking the problem was with the fuel pump, I began removing it. On my truck, the fuel pump extends into the crankcase. After removing the top of the crankcase, I found two rocker arms completely broken off from where they were supposed to be attached. I don't know engine terminology so I dont know the name of the part that they are supposed to be attached to. The point is something happened when I drove my truck home that night. I heard some clanking noises as I drove and should have stopped but I wanted to get home since it was late at night and I live out in the middle of nowhere. I've asked a few mechanics if the damage I found was a result of the diesel. Some have said "no" and some have said "yes". What do you alll think? Did the diesel cause the damage to the rocker arms or is it pure coincidence that they broke the night I put diesel in my tank? My truck is a 4 cylinder engine. It has 323,000 plus miles on it. Any comments or questions would be appreciated. pablocruisey3k@hotmail.com schrieb: > I've asked a few mechanics if the damage I found was a result of the > diesel. Some have said "no" and some have said "yes". What do you alll > think? Would think it was in result of this wrong fuel. > Did the diesel cause the damage to the rocker arms or is it pure > coincidence that they broke the night I put diesel in my tank? With an very hard extending combustion. Regards, Ralf > pablocruisey3k@hotmail.com schrieb: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Would think it was in result of this wrong fuel. I'd LOVE to know how incorrect fuel could break rocker arms! I think its pure coincidence. Diesel might effectively lower octane and cause detonation, but that wouldn't break rocker arms. Hole pistons, blow head gaskets, pound bearings, yes, but not ROCKER arms. > With an very hard extending combustion. Which (if it happens at all, and that's highly doubtful) affects rocker arms exactly how??????? > I'd LOVE to know how incorrect fuel could break rocker arms! I think > its pure coincidence. Diesel might effectively lower octane and cause > detonation, but that wouldn't break rocker arms. Hole pistons, blow head > gaskets, pound bearings, yes, but not ROCKER arms. That's where things aren't making sense. Suppose that the rocker arms were broken before the diesel hit the tank; then he drove to the gas station on either two or three of his four cylinders, because with two rocker arms broken, two valves weren't working. And he drove 100 miles on diesel fuel. I'm starting to wonder if we haven't been trolled.  SignatureBoycott KFC http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/10/nkfc110.xml > And he drove 100 miles on diesel fuel. I'm starting to wonder if we > haven't been trolled. There are lots of ways he might have had a mixture of mostly gasoline and only a little diesel. And the rocker arms could have been worn out such that the strange mixture was their last straw. The amount of gas vs diesel in the gas station tank might have been miscalculated. One fuel might be lighter than the other, such that the gasoline might have been closer to being dispensed. He might have also misestimated how much gas was in his truck tank when he added diesel. >>And he drove 100 miles on diesel fuel. I'm starting to wonder if we >>haven't been trolled. > > There are lots of ways he might have had a mixture of mostly gasoline and > only a little diesel. And the rocker arms could have been worn out such > that the strange mixture was their last straw. Except that rocker arms don't see any change in mechanical loading that depends on the combustion process! Methinks maybe he's trying to scam the gas station to fix an engine he broke some other way.... >> And he drove 100 miles on diesel fuel. I'm starting to wonder if we >> haven't been trolled. > > There are lots of ways he might have had a mixture of mostly gasoline and > only a little diesel. It's possible, except in his words, "I recently pumped 10 gallons of diesel into my truck which has a 14 gallon tank." > And the rocker arms could have been worn out such > that the strange mixture was their last straw. That's a possibility. > The amount of gas vs diesel in the gas station tank might have been > miscalculated. One fuel might be lighter than the other, such that the > gasoline might have been closer to being dispensed. He might have also > misestimated how much gas was in his truck tank when he added diesel. I'd guess he got the 10-gallon figure from the pump. SignatureBoycott KFC http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/10/nkfc110.xml I have to agree with clifto here! I smell fish... but, the poster DID SAY that the vehicle has over 300K + on it's clock. And at a 10:5 ratio of diesel/gas most gasoline powered vehicles WILL run (but like the timing is retarded) because it takes a longer time for oil to burn than gasoline. This poster should have/ would have known that something was wrong within the first 5 miles of travel. IMO. But wait, the poster states that it was diesel fuel? DO WE really know this? I mean, after all, the real problem was pumping the wrong TYPE of FUEL in the vehicle, and if it was truly an HONEST mistake by the fuel distributor, could it ALSO have been kerosine, heating oil, jet fuel, methanol,gosh-dang ANY combustible mixture? Space-Shuttle fuel? LOL I see two sides to this story, but I feel that denotation is out of the picture (for now, but , I am open for any discussion) . With diesels engine pushing 20:1 compressions ratios and gasoline engines at about 9:1, you can all forget about denotation. Starting fluid shouldn't be used for a diesel (unless you're a pro). It can cause tremendous damage to a diesel engine. Broken rocker arms from diesel fuel?... the name 'Pablocruise" from the poster? The "I had to dive 100 miles" story...??? IN the middle of the night? Come-on! 'I thought the problem was in my fuel-pump, so I started to remove it (story) Come-on guys! I smell a fishy troll! > I see two sides to this story, but I feel that denotation is out of the > picture (for now, but , I am open for any discussion) . > With diesels engine pushing 20:1 compressions ratios and gasoline > engines at about 9:1, you can all forget about denotation. Actually, diesel DOES increase detonation in gasoline engines. So does any oil in the combustion mix, which is why an old oil-burning engine that actually is down on compression may knock worse than a higher compression engine with tightly sealing rings. Oils, including diesel, actually have a very low octane rating meaning that they will ignite easily under higher temperature and pressure. Even though a gasoline engine has lower compression than a diesel engine, the fact that it starts out its compression stroke with the cylinder already loaded with a fuel/air charge means that it is subject to detonation when any easily-ignited contaminant (like diesel or engine oil) is present in the fuel. The high octane (harder to self-ignite) characteristic of automotive gasoline is actually one of the ways that gasoline damages a diesel engine- because it resists self-ignition it won't "light" at the start of the injection stroke but waits until a fairly large slug is injected then goes "bang" all at once. Diesel, on the other hand, lights off immediately and burns as a flame on the tip of the injector instead of a "bang". And never leave greasy/oil soaked/gasoline soaked rags in an enclosed space on a warm/hot day.They can self ignite and burst into flames.It is a good idea not to leave them laying around on cool/cold days too. cuhulin >I recently pumped 10 gallons of diesel into my truck which has a 14 >gallon tank. It had 4 gallons of gas at the time. The fault lies with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Anyway, I was able to drive my truck about 100 miles making it home in >the middle of the night. Wow, I am _very_ surprised you made it that far. >The next morning, my truck wouldn't start. Thinking the problem was >with the fuel pump, I began removing it. On my truck, the fuel pump [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >diesel. Some have said "no" and some have said "yes". What do you alll >think? Well, as I said, I am surprised the engine ran at all. But if it did run, it was probably pinging like hell. I am not sure if or how the severe predetonation would have damaged the rocker arms, but it sure would have made me pull over and investigate. >Did the diesel cause the damage to the rocker arms or is it pure >coincidence that they broke the night I put diesel in my tank? For all I know, they could have been previously broken and you only just now discovered the problem, coincidentally. >My truck is a 4 cylinder engine. It has 323,000 plus miles on it. Unfortunately I don't think you'll get much from legal action, then. Just replace the rocker arms, drain the tank, and put in fresh gas. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >>Did the diesel cause the damage to the rocker arms or is it pure >>coincidence that they broke the night I put diesel in my tank? > > For all I know, they could have been previously broken and you only just > now discovered the problem, coincidentally. I'm thinking that one or two of his four cylinders wouldn't be firing very well with rocker arms that didn't work the valve(s). I would think he'd have noticed the effects before he got the tankful of diesel, no? SignatureBoycott KFC http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/10/nkfc110.xml Gasoline engines will not run on diesel fuel, (diesel fuel is basically kerosene and oil mix,with some additives thrown in at the refinerys.Big 50/55 barrell of kerosene,throw in 5 gallons of oil,mix it up,you have diesel fuel for bulldozers,stuff like that.Jet fuel is basically kerosene too) Diesel engines will not run on gasoline.Diesel engines will run on dead cats though. cuhulin > Gasoline engines will not run on diesel fuel, (diesel fuel is basically > kerosene and oil mix,with some additives thrown in at the refinerys.Big [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > will run on dead cats though. > cuhulin Diesel engines will run on gas. It'll burn valves, knock injectors loose, shred fuel pumps, and all kinds of other cool sh.t, but the engines will run until shut off or destroyed. Last one I saw was a Cummins 5.9 with #5 injector bouncing up and down when it came into the shop. Many gas engines will run on diesel, especially mixed with gas, but will knock very badly. The OP should pull his spark plugs. SignatureB.B. --I am not a goat! thegoat4 at airmail dot net Well,they won't run for long.I think. cuhulin > Many gas engines will run on diesel, especially mixed with gas, Especially if already warmed up. The main reason diesel won't burn in a gas engine in the first place is that it won't vaporize enough, but with the engine already hot and with a little gasoline in the mix, it will run. Not WELL... but it will run. ---- Original Message ---- From: "B.B." <DoNotSpamthegoat4@airmail.net.com.org.gov.tw.ch.ru> Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 5:10 AM Subject: Re: Diesel in a gas engine >> Gasoline engines will not run on diesel fuel, (diesel fuel is >> basically kerosene and oil mix,with some additives thrown in at the >> refinerys.Big 50/55 barrell of kerosene,throw in 5 gallons of >> oil,mix it up,you have diesel fuel for bulldozers,stuff like >> that.Jet fuel is basically kerosene too) Diesel engines will not run >> on gasoline.Diesel engines will run on dead cats though. Dead cats? What, you boil them up and decant the liquid into the fuel tank? ;-) I know what you mean really! >> cuhulin > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > will knock very badly. > The OP should pull his spark plugs. Judging from the fiasco in the UK a couple of months ago when contaminated petrol (gasoline) was accidentally sold in many garages around the country because of a cock-up at a fuel-distribution depot, I'd say that modern petrol engines will not run for very long on diesel. The contaminant was eventually found to be silicon which is normally added as an anti-foaming agent to diesel but which should never ever be added to petrol because it coats one of the exhaust-gas sensors and prevents it working, causing the car to enter a fail-safe get-you-home mode, requiring costly work to replace the sensor. At one stage garages were inundated with knackered cars and were running out of supplied of lambda sensors. Fortunately most of the drivers have now been compensated and the garages are presumably submitting a huge damages claim against the fuel depot! Fortunately I escaped - because my car runs on diesel ;-) > I recently pumped 10 gallons of diesel into my truck which has a 14 > gallon tank. It had 4 gallons of gas at the time. The fault lies with [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Any comments or questions would be appreciated. This story sounds fishy. Your vehicle would not run on a 10:4 diesel:gas ratio. Modern vehicles use fuel pumps in tanks. Older ones are driven by an eccentric on the crank or cam - no engine disassembly required. You could not tell that your 4 cyl vehicle was running on 3 cylinders? On May 13, 5:48 am, pablocruise...@hotmail.com wrote: > I recently pumped 10 gallons of diesel into my truck which has a 14 > gallon tank. It had 4 gallons of gas at the time. The fault lies with [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Any comments or questions would be appreciated. WELL FOR ONE THING DEISEL DOESNT HAVE ENOUGH OCTANE IN IT TO FIRE IT SHOULD HAVE JUST SHUT YOU DOWN AS SOON AS THE FUEL HIT YOU INJECTORS BUT IT COULD HAVE SOME BAD AFFECTS ON YOUR ENGINE UPTO AND INCLUDING ROD DAMMAGE On May 13, 8:12 pm, IRONMD...@gmail.com wrote: > On May 13, 5:48 am, pablocruise...@hotmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > BUT IT COULD HAVE SOME BAD AFFECTS ON YOUR ENGINE UPTO AND INCLUDING > ROD DAMMAGE But low octane means an increased tendency to fire. HIGHER octane is more resistant to combustion, to prevent detonation and preignition. |
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