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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2007Do I need to check backlash after replacing the diff bearing?
I have an annoying noise from the rear axle of my '97 Camaro, which I suspect is one of my differential bearings that needs replacement. At the same time I'll get new thrust washers for my side gears, which will hopefully get rid of the annoying play in the drive axles. Anyway, after replacing these do I have to check the backlash and all that stuff? I assume it's not necessary, but I want to be sure. Thanks, Ulf > I have an annoying noise from the rear axle of my '97 Camaro, which I > suspect is one of my differential bearings that needs replacement. At [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, > Ulf Backlash and side bearing preload. The factory shims that are in there now are cast iron, they'll break if you try to reinstall them. Service shims are steel and you'll need an assortment to choose from. aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article <nonelson-E84F7E.18191317052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... > The factory shims that are in there now are cast iron, they'll > break if you try to reinstall them. .....only if you try to install them with a hammer and without using the correct housing spreader. If you spread the center section correctly, they will drop right in......just like at the factory. > aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article > <nonelson-E84F7E.18191317052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If you spread the center section correctly, they will drop right > in......just like at the factory. Nice to know, but unfortunately I don't have a "housing spreader", is that thing really necessary? > Ulf asdf@asdf.com wrote in article <464dcd3d$0$24593$8404b019@news.wineasy.se>... > > aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article > > <nonelson-E84F7E.18191317052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Nice to know, but unfortunately I don't have a "housing spreader", is > that thing really necessary? Some people would say "no", but I bought one because I was doing a number of Spicer-type rears, and I DO believe they are necessary - especially if you are setting up a new set of gears. You must often install and remove the shims several times to get things right. > asdf@asdf.com wrote in article > <464dcd3d$0$24593$8404b019@news.wineasy.se>... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You must often install and remove the shims several times to get things > right. I assumed that wasn't necessary since I'm not replacing the gears. Anyway, I've removed the differential case from the car and the differential bearings look alright, the problem appears to be the thrust washers on the side gears. I can move both spider gears about 5mm / .2" left and right which I assume is too much play. This would be why there's play in the drive axles and the noise I've been hearing on left turns would be the left brake disc touching the holder of the caliper. Unfortunately, I don't have any new thrust washers, so I'm at a dead end. There doesn't appear to be any point of replacing the bearing either if it's good. The question remains whether I should try to put everything back together or just walk in with the diff to the mechanic. Assuming I'm not able to get both shims in place, could I drive carefully with only one or will that put too much stress on the pinion gear/bearing? Thanks, Ulf > > You must often install and remove the shims several times to get things > > right. > > I assumed that wasn't necessary since I'm not replacing the gears. But you were replacing the bearings, the preload on new bearings is different than the preload on used bearings not to mention any production differences between the different bearings themselves. > Anyway, I've removed the differential case from the car and the > differential bearings look alright, the problem appears to be the thrust [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > end. There doesn't appear to be any point of replacing the bearing > either if it's good. Makes sense, the F body rear axle isn't all that robust. > The question remains whether I should try to put everything back > together or just walk in with the diff to the mechanic. Assuming I'm not > able to get both shims in place, could I drive carefully with only one > or will that put too much stress on the pinion gear/bearing? Couple of things... Did the differential slip out easily or did you need to use a pry bar to get it loose? Did you mark the bearing caps WRT orientation, i.e., left and right, top vs. bottom? Did you mark the outer races WRT orientation? Did you mark the side shims WRT which side they came from? Did you measure the ring gear to pinion backlash before you disassembled? No, you can't drive at all with just one side shim in place. aarcuda69062 skrev: >>> You must often install and remove the shims several times to get things >>> right. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is different than the preload on used bearings not to mention any > production differences between the different bearings themselves. No, I skipped replacing the bearings, they looked fine. > >> Anyway, I've removed the differential case from the car and the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Did the differential slip out easily or did you need to use a pry > bar to get it loose? Pry bar. > Did you mark the bearing caps WRT orientation, i.e., left and > right, top vs. bottom? L & R on everything. Not T & B, is that important? > Did you mark the outer races WRT orientation? See above. > Did you mark the side shims WRT which side they came from? Yes, see above. > Did you measure the ring gear to pinion backlash before you > disassembled? No, I don't have the tools. > No, you can't drive at all with just one side shim in place. Well, I got everything back together. No housing spreader needed, just a rubber hammer. I'll let the pro's fix it, seems to be too much fiddling to get it right and I'm no perfectionist. At least I gave it a shot... :-) Thanks for the input everyone. Ulf > aarcuda69062 skrev: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > No, I skipped replacing the bearings, they looked fine. I realize that. My comments were regarding proper service procedure and avoiding pitfalls that usually result in early failure. <snip> > > Did you mark the bearing caps WRT orientation, i.e., left and > > right, top vs. bottom? > > L & R on everything. Not T & B, is that important? Yes. You can not flip the bearing caps because they are machined in place. if the bearing cap was originally installed like this ( [ ) and you re-installed it like this ( ] ), the bore will not be centered and the outer bearing race will be unevenly stressed. The same rules that apply to engine bearing caps apply to rear axle bearing caps if you get my drift. Hopefully in your case, the bearing caps will only fit in one direction... > > Did you mark the outer races WRT orientation? > > See above. good > > Did you mark the side shims WRT which side they came from? > > Yes, see above. good > > Did you measure the ring gear to pinion backlash before you > > disassembled? > > No, I don't have the tools. Any time you R & R a ring gear/differential assembly, you want to shoot for the same backlash as what it was before disassembly. > > No, you can't drive at all with just one side shim in place. > > Well, I got everything back together. No housing spreader needed, just a > rubber hammer. I'll let the pro's fix it, seems to be too much fiddling > to get it right and I'm no perfectionist. At least I gave it a shot... :-) Please inform the pros that you were in there if there's any question regarding whether the bearing caps were returned to their correct positions. > aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article > <nonelson-E84F7E.18191317052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > .....only if you try to install them with a hammer and without using the > correct housing spreader. Given the original posters question, did you think he would have one to use? > If you spread the center section correctly, they will drop right > in......just like at the factory. AFAIK, and I may be way wrong, the spreader isn't even part of current GM service procedure for the passenger car axles. I'd gladly defer to Ian since he does this every day in that particular setting... "aarcuda69062" <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:nonelson- > AFAIK, and I may be way wrong, the spreader isn't even part of > current GM service procedure for the passenger car axles. > I'd gladly defer to Ian since he does this every day in that > particular setting... Ian is an excellent source....Setting up rearends was something I always managed to dodge... it isnt rocket science, but I have great respect for the need to do it correctly. And I never had the tools to do it correctly, so -for the very few instances we had to deal with differential service - we sent them out. aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article <nonelson-2EA189.18321518052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... > > aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article > > <nonelson-E84F7E.18191317052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > one to use? > It's highly unlikely, but that doesn't change anything. If he tries to hammer the shims in without spreading the housing, he will likely break them. Also, if he doesn't have the tool, he might not be able to do the job........correctly, that is. I wouldn't expect him to be able to accurately bore an engine with a glaze-breaker, either. > > If you spread the center section correctly, they will drop right > > in......just like at the factory. > > AFAIK, and I may be way wrong, You are..... >the spreader isn't even part of > current GM service procedure for the passenger car axles. > I'd gladly defer to Ian since he does this every day in that > particular setting... Just have to read ANY GM, RWD service manual...........The housings STILL have the holes for the spreader, and while some may ignore the correct procedure, they are STILL used when assembling a rear axle correctly. I can't speak for the FWD transaxle differentials since I only work on RWD stuff. > > Given the original posters question, did you think he would have > > one to use? > > > > It's highly unlikely, but that doesn't change anything. It does if there are acceptable alternative methods. > If he tries to hammer the shims in without spreading the housing, he will > likely break them. I already stated that. > Also, if he doesn't have the tool, he might not be able to do the > job........correctly, that is. It can be done correctly if he uses the steel service shims that are available from GM and/or any number of aftermarket vendors. > I wouldn't expect him to be able to accurately bore an engine with a > glaze-breaker, either. I fail to see the similarity between a machining operation and an assembly operation. > > > If you spread the center section correctly, they will drop right > > > in......just like at the factory. > > > > AFAIK, and I may be way wrong, > > You are..... Not necessarily. > >the spreader isn't even part of > > current GM service procedure for the passenger car axles. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have the holes for the spreader, and while some may ignore the correct > procedure, they are STILL used when assembling a rear axle correctly. That may be true regarding the original assemble at the factory, but necessarily true at the dealership level and certainly not true if one reads the instructions supplied with just about any aftermarket gear set/differential assembly. If one calls and queries Randy's Ring & Pinion, they will actually tell you -not- to use a case spreader on any GM axle including a 12 bolt. > I can't speak for the FWD transaxle differentials since I only work on RWD > stuff. FWD is a whole different animal. aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article <nonelson-5B3F60.08501219052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... > > > Given the original posters question, did you think he would have > > > one to use? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It does if there are acceptable alternative methods. > Please outline the "alternative" method of applying the correct amount of side-carrier bearing pre-load without moving the housing away from the cup, then allowing it to create pressure against the cup when it is relaxed.....providing the pre-load. > > > Also, if he doesn't have the tool, he might not be able to do the > > job........correctly, that is. > > It can be done correctly if he uses the steel service shims that > are available from GM and/or any number of aftermarket vendors. Do these shims magically expand a certain amount for each thousandth of thickness to provide correct bearing pre-load? > > Just have to read ANY GM, RWD service manual...........The housings STILL > > have the holes for the spreader, and while some may ignore the correct [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > actually tell you -not- to use a case spreader on any GM axle > including a 12 bolt. They must have a lot of fun getting SOME of those 12-bolts apart without using a spreader. ****REMINDER TO SELF.......Continue to set up your own rear ends using correct, by-the-book, factory--and-manufacturer-prescribed methods - AND specialized tools including housing spreaders - just as you have on the dozens of 12-bolts and others that you have already set up for oval-track and drag racing over the last 40 -plus years....Avoid Randy's Ring & Pinion at all costs. And, when you need a laugh, call the guys at Richmond Gear and tell them about Randy's theories. > And, when you need a laugh, call the guys at Richmond Gear and tell them > about Randy's theories. http://www.richmondgear.com/ringandpinion.pdf Page 4. Careful who you name drop. aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article <nonelson-B32083.18055123052007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>... > > And, when you need a laugh, call the guys at Richmond Gear and tell them > > about Randy's theories. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Careful who you name drop. You know, it's kinda' strange how the guys in the shop and the guys in marketing who maintain collateral material - such as charts, manuals and websites - at larger companies never seem to communicate well with each other. > aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article > <nonelson-B32083.18055123052007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > websites - at larger companies never seem to communicate well with each > other. So, you call the guys at Richmond Gear often? > ****REMINDER TO SELF.......Continue to set up your own rear ends using > correct, by-the-book, factory--and-manufacturer-prescribed methods - AND > specialized tools including housing spreaders - just as you have on the > dozens of 12-bolts and others that you have already set up for oval-track Hobby stocks, eh? <yawn> Neil Nelson <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article <nonelson-E78E22.18075223052007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>... > > ****REMINDER TO SELF.......Continue to set up your own rear ends using > > correct, by-the-book, factory--and-manufacturer-prescribed methods - AND [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ><yawn> ....Yup.....and Street Stocks, and Sportsman, and Pro-Stocks. Unlike some snobbish people, I don't look down on the people who can only afford to race the lower classes. Instead, I work with them. Their money is as good - if not better - than some of the upper class racers. I've NEVER been stiffed by a Street-Stocker. I cannot say the same for Late Model/Pro-Stock racers - some of whom have owed me money for years now. > Neil Nelson <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article > <nonelson-E78E22.18075223052007@newsclstr03.news.prodigy.net>... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Unlike some snobbish people, I don't look down on the people who can only > afford to race the lower classes. Instead, I work with them. Speaking of snobbish, i suppose you look down your nose at the products sold by Mark Williams Enterprises also. > Their money is as good - if not better - than some of the upper class > racers. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I cannot say the same for Late Model/Pro-Stock racers - some of whom have > owed me money for years now. The last racer who didn't stiff me died in a plane crash years ago. aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in article <nonelson-5B3F60.08501219052007@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com>... > That may be true regarding the original assemble at the factory, > but necessarily true at the dealership level and certainly not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > actually tell you -not- to use a case spreader on any GM axle > including a 12 bolt. Just checked Randy's website..... It seems that they ONLY sell the DANA spreader - which doesn't fit other "corporate" rear axles..... How would you expect them to respond when customers ask why they don't have a spreader for a 12-bolt? "Aw, you need one, but we don't have it, so yiou'll have to go to one of our competitors" OR "Naw....You don't need a spreader for anything but a DANA - and we HAVE that one." Of course, if you call back with a problem, the pat answer will likely be, "Geez....we've never run into THAT before. You must have a mongrel or something." Thanks for the tipoff on how Randy's does business....... |
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