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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / June 2007

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Increase brake performance

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Ulf - 28 May 2007 20:07 GMT
I was at a race track this weekend for the first time with my '97 Camaro
Z28 (completely stock) and realized that my brakes need upgrading. In
short, trying to pass a Porsche 911 at the end of a long straight before
a tight 180-turn, going about 110 - 120 mph I lost almost all braking
power and went off the track almost taking the 911 with me. Anyway, it
appeared, looking at the brakes, that the pads melted. I've always heard
that boiling brake fluid is the thing to worry about, but since my DOT
5.1 fluid isn't more than one or two years old I figured I was alright.

Fortunately, both me and my Camaro survived the excursion into the leca
pellets without a scratch, but it was embarrassing that they had to
red-flag the session to get me out so I have no plans of doing it again.
Riding as a passenger in both a BMW M6 and a Mini Cooper S, driven by
professional drivers, it is clear that my brakes are one step behind
both, even the Mini's.

So, what are my options? Is replacing the pads enough to get the brakes
to survive hard track driving?

Ulf
clifto - 29 May 2007 05:58 GMT
> I was at a race track this weekend for the first time with my '97 Camaro
> Z28 (completely stock) and realized that my brakes need upgrading. In
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> So, what are my options? Is replacing the pads enough to get the brakes
> to survive hard track driving?

1. Change the fluid anyway.
2. What kind of pads melted?
3. You might consider changing the rotors, to eliminate corroded cooling
surfaces.
4. I'm guessing it takes a whole lot of heat to melt pads (even without
knowing what material they're made of, I'm still guessing that). I'd
check the calipers and flex hoses for even the slightest signs of damage.

Signature

We can't possibly imprison 300 million Americans for not paying their
taxes, so let's grant all of them amnesty NOW!

HLS@nospam.nix - 29 May 2007 12:16 GMT
> > So, what are my options? Is replacing the pads enough to get the brakes
> > to survive hard track driving?

Definitely, go with a better pad material.  I have had discs glow red, but
never
have I melted a pad.

Do you have four wheel disc brakes on this car?  If not, and if you want to
continue
racing in sports car type competitions, I might consider retrofitting them.
I am not
a big believer in crossdrilled and slotted discs for most purposes, but
might put
some serious study into them for racing.

I have boiled brake fluid before.  It is not a pleasant experience, so I
would suggest
you not only upgrade your brake fluid, but that you also look into ducting a
better
flow of cool air to the rotor area, if your race class allows you to do it.
Such a
modification has to be done carefully.  You will become rather unpopular if
you
start dropping pieces of dryer duct on the track.
frederick - 29 May 2007 21:18 GMT
> I was at a race track this weekend for the first time with my '97 Camaro
> Z28 (completely stock) and realized that my brakes need upgrading. In
> short, trying to pass a Porsche 911 at the end of a long straight before
> a tight 180-turn, going about 110 - 120 mph I lost almost all braking
> power and went off the track almost taking the 911 with me.
Is overtaking a car - that probably has a higher top speed and almost
certainly has vastly superior brakes - at the end of a long straight
before a 180 deg turn a good idea?
Steve W. - 29 May 2007 22:10 GMT
>> I was at a race track this weekend for the first time with my '97
>> Camaro Z28 (completely stock) and realized that my brakes need
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> certainly has vastly superior brakes - at the end of a long straight
> before a 180 deg turn a good idea?

Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
could just try the same thing again and wipe out both cars...

Signature

Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York
NRA Member
Pacifism - The theory that if they'd fed
Jeffrey Dahmer enough human flesh,
he'd have become a vegan.

HLS@nospam.nix - 30 May 2007 00:42 GMT
> Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
> could just try the same thing again and wipe out both cars...

Steve is right on track.  You can always try to improve your ride, but until
you KNOW your ride and drive with intelligence, you will still come up
lacking.
frederick - 30 May 2007 10:10 GMT
>> Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
>> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you KNOW your ride and drive with intelligence, you will still come up
> lacking.

I would have guessed that part of this is hoping or at least assuming
that the other guy might also "know his ride".
That would make it reasonably intelligent to assume that overtaking a
Porsche at the end of a long straight with a hairpin coming up in a
"stock" (= standard unmodified) Z28 Camaro is a dumb move.
But please try to convince me otherwise.
HLS@nospam.nix - 30 May 2007 19:29 GMT
> I would have guessed that part of this is hoping or at least assuming
> that the other guy might also "know his ride".
> That would make it reasonably intelligent to assume that overtaking a
> Porsche at the end of a long straight with a hairpin coming up in a
> "stock" (= standard unmodified) Z28 Camaro is a dumb move.
> But please try to convince me otherwise.

We are now all three on the same page...Anyone who knew his ride would
not try that with a Camaro.  You are taking a knife to a gunfight.
Ray - 30 May 2007 15:26 GMT
>> Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
>> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> you KNOW your ride and drive with intelligence, you will still come up
> lacking.

ok, all of you hotshots that actually drive on a road course on a
regular basis, hands up.  The rest of you... shut up. :)
HLS@nospam.nix - 30 May 2007 19:34 GMT
> >> Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
> >> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> ok, all of you hotshots that actually drive on a road course on a
> regular basis, hands up.  The rest of you... shut up. :)

Does running Beltway 8 in Houston qualify??  Competitors there regularly run
in excess of 90MPH. ;>)
dye - 01 Jun 2007 23:20 GMT
>>> Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
>>> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>ok, all of you hotshots that actually drive on a road course on a
>regular basis, hands up.  The rest of you... shut up. :)

I roadrace an AS camaro (SCCA), and have both '94 and '98 street Z28s
at one of the worst tracks, brake-wise, in the U.S.: Blackhawk
Farms Raceway.

It sounds like what you experienced was brake fade (ie. solid pedal,
pressing down hard, but vastly reduced braking force).  If you had
a soft pedal, or it dropped to the floor, you were experiencing
fluid boiling (exactly the same symptoms as air in the line).

Fade is caused by overheated brake pads.  The material that
the friction material together becomes so hot that it begins
to boil.  The gasses come out at the surface of the pad, and
get between the pad/rotor contact area, greatly reducing the
friction between the two.

In the old days, you would be told to use cross-drilled rotors.
This gives the gasses emerging from the pad surface somewhere
to go.  These days, pads are available that work at much higher
temperatures, so cross-drilled or slotted rotors are mostly
for "show".  Performace Friction Z pads will probably be
a good track/street setup.  Porterfield, and Hawk Brake are
two other manufacturers who make race and street/race pads
that will work on your car.

If you are really serious about this addictive sport, I would
look at the www.fbody.org website.  There is probably a "how
to" to upgrade your single piston, cast iron caliper setup
to the 12" dual-pistion aluminum PBR calipers (this is what
I use on the race car...and is essentially what was the
seceret "1LE" option package on third-generation F-bodies
(camaros/firebirds).

Getting some 3-4" aluminum, flexible dryer ductwork and cobbling
up cooling air to your rotors is another cheap way to keep the
brake temps down.

Next time out, though....try to work on that "red mist" in your
eyes and pay more attention to how your brake pedal feels...
and remember, if you can't afford to push it off a cliff,
don't take it to the track...

--Ken

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Ken R. Dye                               an optimist is a guy             |
Chicago, Illinois                        that has never had               |
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8746   much experience                  |
dye1146 at sbcglobal dot net                                 archy        |

Ulf - 04 Jun 2007 18:43 GMT
>>>> Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
>>>> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> get between the pad/rotor contact area, greatly reducing the
> friction between the two.

Yes, that's exactly what happened.

> In the old days, you would be told to use cross-drilled rotors.
> This gives the gasses emerging from the pad surface somewhere
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> two other manufacturers who make race and street/race pads
> that will work on your car.

How much difference do steel braided brake lines make compared to the
stock rubber lines? Do they really give you more feel?

> If you are really serious about this addictive sport, I would
> look at the www.fbody.org website.  There is probably a "how
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> seceret "1LE" option package on third-generation F-bodies
> (camaros/firebirds).

You mean http://www.f-body.org/ :-) I think upgrading the brakes is a
bit over the top for me, reducing brake fade is enough for now.

> Getting some 3-4" aluminum, flexible dryer ductwork and cobbling
> up cooling air to your rotors is another cheap way to keep the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and remember, if you can't afford to push it off a cliff,
> don't take it to the track...

Yup, but next time I won't experience brake fade (hopefully..).

> --Ken

Ulf
dye - 10 Jun 2007 17:11 GMT
>>>>> Not IF you actually know how the car behaves. Sounds like the OP needs
>>>>> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>How much difference do steel braided brake lines make compared to the
>stock rubber lines? Do they really give you more feel?

If everything else is perfect, yes you will feel a very solid
pedal.  I forgot to mention in my last email the importance of
brake bleeding.  If you are getting the brakes hot enough
to experience fade, bleeding often with good fluid will help
with pedal feel, and lower the chances of fluid boiling.
If you bleed often enough, you can use a fluid like Ford
Heavy Duty, which a very high boiling point (but like
most standard fluids is pretty hygrosocpic, and as such
needs to be bled often).

>> Next time out, though....try to work on that "red mist" in your
>> eyes and pay more attention to how your brake pedal feels...
>> and remember, if you can't afford to push it off a cliff,
>> don't take it to the track...
>
>Yup, but next time I won't experience brake fade (hopefully..).

As your laptimes go down, you may re-visit this problem again!

--Ken
Signature

Ken R. Dye                               an optimist is a guy             |
Chicago, Illinois                        that has never had               |
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8746   much experience                  |
dye1146 at sbcglobal dot net                                 archy        |

Ulf - 30 May 2007 18:33 GMT
Steve W. skrev:
>>> I was at a race track this weekend for the first time with my '97
>>> Camaro Z28 (completely stock) and realized that my brakes need
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> to learn how to drive his car and find out the limits it has. Or he
> could just try the same thing again and wipe out both cars...

Thanks for the input, but all you guys apparently missed the first
sentence in my OP. This was the first time I drove my Camaro hard on a
track, and the first time I've experienced that much brake fade.

Now, I had been behind the 911 for a couple of laps, gaining on him on
the straights. Figuring if I could get on the inside of him before the
turn, he would let my by. Unfortunately, that's when my brakes decided
to quit and I just managed to dive to the left on him before going off.
Had the brakes worked, I would probably have passed him, and for the
record, I did pass a BMW E92 coupe, a C6, a E92 335i sedan, and a few
other cars so I wasn't exactly going slow. My "wide" driving style was
also commented on, among others a NSX driver who was behind me several laps.

With that said, all I want is brakes which hold up to track driving and
that I can trust.

Ulf
Ray - 30 May 2007 19:32 GMT
> With that said, all I want is brakes which hold up to track driving and
> that I can trust.
>
> Ulf

What % of racetrack/street time does the car see?
If it's full race, don't bother with any kind of street pad.
If it's mostly street, you won't be happy with race pads - you won't be
able to get them up to temp on the street.

On my dirt track Camaro, I run Taxi/HD style brake pads.
For a cheap upgrade, consider swapping in a 98-02 LS1 style braking
setup, it's apparently better than your 97's.
(I've done hotlaps in my 01 TA with the stock brakes and haven't had
them meltdown yet, but they're only good enough... not "GOOD ENOUGH")

My $.02 is to head over to a place like ls1tech or a place more F-body
specific to discuss brake pad formulations for a racetrack...

Ray
HLS@nospam.nix - 30 May 2007 19:33 GMT
> Thanks for the input, but all you guys apparently missed the first
> sentence in my OP. This was the first time I drove my Camaro hard on a
> track, and the first time I've experienced that much brake fade.

> Ulf

What I want to know is where they let you run like this?  From your post,
it did not appear that you were running with serious preparation of your
car, but maybe I assumed too much.
 
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