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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2007what's better about higher priced rotors?
so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: * $19.50 USD RAYBESTOS {Professional Grade, vented) * $45.00 USD WAGNER (no details) * $48.00 USD RAYBESTOS (vented, originally equipped and supplied in noise dampening iron) * $87.00 USD RAYBESTOS {Brute Stop} Front;Left (obviously dedicated left and right side) * $110.00 USD ACDELCO FRT DURASTOP PERFORMANCE LEFT HAND (also dedicated left / right side). and there are a few others scattered in-between. so what am i getting "extra", say, between the $48 unit and $19.50 unit from Raybestos ??? it would seem "smart" to go with the $19 unit and change the rotors out every time it's time to change the pads (?). regards, michael > so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), > which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: > * $19.50 USD RAYBESTOS {Professional Grade, vented) > * $45.00 USD WAGNER (no details) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > from Raybestos ??? it would seem "smart" to go with the $19 unit and > change the rotors out every time it's time to change the pads (?). Tolerances, material, and where they are made. My guess is the $19 rotors are made-in-china with questionable grade steel and wider tolerances. > > so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), > > which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > My guess is the $19 rotors are made-in-china with questionable grade > steel and wider tolerances. Actually, that is somewhere between completely wrong and partially wrong. None of the discs are likely to be made of steel. If they were they would cost more and steel performs poorly at the temperatures that brake disc normally need to perform compared to iron. The difference between the $19 dollar discs and $48 may be similar to the difference between low sodium and regular foods at the super market where they charge double for not adding salt. They charge what they calculate people are willing to pay. The $48 ones are billed as "noise dampening iron" which pretty much guarantees that they are less wear resistant than the $19 dollar ones. I would expect that if asked the wholesale supplier would reveal that they sell mostly the $19 ones and mostly what you are getting with the more expensive brands is the extra cost of sitting on the shelf longer. -jim >> My guess is the $19 rotors are made-in-china with questionable grade >> steel and wider tolerances. > Actually, that is somewhere between completely wrong and partially > wrong. None of the discs are likely to be made of steel. If they were [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > they sell mostly the $19 ones and mostly what you are getting with the > more expensive brands is the extra cost of sitting on the shelf longer. Yes, I brain farted and typed the wrong word. However the meaning is obvious, the material from china is of questionable quality. Of course this being rec.autos.tech..... Anyway, a questionable grade of grey cast iron. (not just iron, as iron is an element) There are different grades and it does matter. Processing and percentage of various other elements in addition to iron change hardness and other properties. Cost is proportional to labor, the process controls on the material, the casting process, and the machining process. With a supplier in china the major challenges are keeping processing constant and avoiding unauthorized material substitutions and contamination. Sure, it's less important if the Si content of the brake rotor material is off vs. having something in the pet food that kills your dog, but from a manufacturing POV it's the same sort of issue. BTW, this being rec.autos.tech, there are grades of steel that can hold up to the temperature (as we are talking what, less than 600 degrees C?), but there are other issues like cost. > >> My guess is the $19 rotors are made-in-china with questionable grade > >> steel and wider tolerances. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > and percentage of various other elements in addition to iron change > hardness and other properties. Gray iron is generally not the best iron for rotors. It does have good properties for noise dampening. The $48 rotors are probably gray iron and the $19 are probably not. Unless you are mainly concerned with keeping your brakes from squeaking the cheaper ones are probably a better deal. -jim > Cost is proportional to labor, the process controls on the material, the > casting process, and the machining process. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > up to the temperature (as we are talking what, less than 600 degrees C?), > but there are other issues like cost. >> >> My guess is the $19 rotors are made-in-china with questionable grade >> >> steel and wider tolerances. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> and percentage of various other elements in addition to iron change >> hardness and other properties. > Gray iron is generally not the best iron for rotors. It does have good > properties for noise dampening. The $48 rotors are probably gray iron > and the $19 are probably not. Unless you are mainly concerned with > keeping your brakes from squeaking the cheaper ones are probably a > better deal. 'grey cast iron' is a very generic description, it covers a wide range of grades. Certainly some are quite poor for a brake rotor while others can be quite good. While there are likely brake rotors from other generic classes of 'cast iron', odds are most are probably one grade or another of 'grey cast iron'. Quality comes from attention to detail. The odds of finding that in a bargin basement part from china, especially with a casting and machining operation are probably quite slim. googling around it appears that noise dampening iron is a reference to a higher carbon content. How that relates to wear is hard to say without knowing the details of the processing. > > Gray iron is generally not the best iron for rotors. It does have good > > properties for noise dampening. The $48 rotors are probably gray iron [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > grades. Certainly some are quite poor for a brake rotor while others can > be quite good. Gray iron is not the best choice for rotors it is used for drum brakes. Back when asbestos was used in brakes it was almost never used for rotors. But the removal of asbestos often has resulted in brake noise (squeaks) and gray iron rotors are a remedy for that. -Jim > While there are likely brake rotors from other generic classes of 'cast > iron', odds are most are probably one grade or another of 'grey cast iron'. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > higher carbon content. How that relates to wear is hard to say without > knowing the details of the processing. > Gray iron is not the best choice for rotors it is used for drum brakes. > Back when asbestos was used in brakes it was almost never used for > rotors. But the removal of asbestos often has resulted in brake noise > (squeaks) and gray iron rotors are a remedy for that. It's obvious you're not getting it or just not reading it. terms like grey cast iron, white cast iron, etc are extremely generic terms. There are various grades of cast iron within each grouping. Not to mention special names used by various manufacturers. There is a wide degree of materials that are covered by each term. The Bosch automotive handbook reads: "Gray cast iron brake disks with bilaterally acting calipers have proven to be the most satisfactory layout." Now, since you disagree, what is 'better'? > > Gray iron is not the best choice for rotors it is used for drum brakes. > > Back when asbestos was used in brakes it was almost never used for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > names used by various manufacturers. There is a wide degree of materials > that are covered by each term. Yes you are right most people can't tell the difference between gray iron and ductile iron. White iron is not very machinable so it's unlikely you will ever see any of that in a brake rotor. > The Bosch automotive handbook reads: > "Gray cast iron brake disks with bilaterally acting calipers have proven > to be the most satisfactory layout." Given that many ( most? ) cars don't have that particular configuration we can assume that opinion isn't the definitive word on the subject. > Now, since you disagree, what is 'better'? Better in what way? Where I live corrosion from road salt is the main thing that shortens the life of brake rotors. If you want corrosion resistance then stainless steel is better. But it won't be better in price or in the ability to bring the vehicle to a stop. At any rate that wasn't the question. The biggest advantage of gray iron is its ability to dampen noise and vibration. So when you see one set of rotors advertised as being made of "noise dampening iron" you can be certain that one is gray iron. That property alone would seem to make it the perfect material for brakes. The problem is that it is not as tough or strong as steel or ductile iron. So there is a greater danger of catastrophic failure. I suspect that property is what is given the most consideration by manufacturers. -jim >> It's obvious you're not getting it or just not reading it. terms like grey >> cast iron, white cast iron, etc are extremely generic terms. There are >> various grades of cast iron within each grouping. Not to mention special >> names used by various manufacturers. There is a wide degree of materials >> that are covered by each term. > Yes you are right most people can't tell the difference between gray > iron and ductile iron. White iron is not very machinable so it's > unlikely you will ever see any of that in a brake rotor. But it's not just those three, there are countless grades within each generic catagory. Given general practices in China, I would suspect that process controls and material substitutions would result in very poor parts. One could get a 'grey cast iron' rotor made of a low grade that is suspect of even meeting those requirements that performs poorly but that doesn't mean all grey cast iron is bad for brake rotors. >> The Bosch automotive handbook reads: >> "Gray cast iron brake disks with bilaterally acting calipers have proven >> to be the most satisfactory layout." > Given that many ( most? ) cars don't have that particular configuration > we can assume that opinion isn't the definitive word on the subject. You were saying what was better, I just brought up another source that has a differing opinion. >> Now, since you disagree, what is 'better'? > Better in what way? You're the one making the claim... up to you. > Where I live corrosion from road salt is the main > thing that shortens the life of brake rotors. If you want corrosion [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > of catastrophic failure. I suspect that property is what is given the > most consideration by manufacturers. There are various grades of each and there is considerable overlap in the ranges. The specific grade and manufacturing processes is what it all comes down to. Noise dampening iron seems to refer to carbon content. For instance, Brembo uses a high carbon content for noise reduction. > > Yes you are right most people can't tell the difference between gray > > iron and ductile iron. White iron is not very machinable so it's > > unlikely you will ever see any of that in a brake rotor. > > But it's not just those three, there are countless grades within each > generic catagory. The grades within the categories are based on the mechanical properties of the iron. It's relatively easy to determine the grades if you are willing to do destructive testing. After you have determined the grade of a batch of castings there are non-destructive tests that can be used to determine if the quality is maintained through out. The metal casting industry didn't just crawl out from under a cabbage leaf yesterday they have had this sort of stuff worked out for along time. >Given general practices in China, I would suspect that > process controls and material substitutions would result in very poor > parts. One could get a 'grey cast iron' rotor made of a low grade that is > suspect of even meeting those requirements that performs poorly but that > doesn't mean all grey cast iron is bad for brake rotors. I don't know why process control would be any different for a Chinese foundry than an American. If any thing they may be more quality conscious. Considering the cost of shipping something so heavy from China if they get a batch of castings rejected they are going to be out a lot more than when it happens to an American foundry. > >> The Bosch automotive handbook reads: > >> "Gray cast iron brake disks with bilaterally acting calipers have proven [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You were saying what was better, I just brought up another source that > has a differing opinion. I merely said that the rotors you see in parts stores are most often not gray iron. I made the mistake of expanding on that and offering a possible reason. From that you conclude I have something against gray iron? > >> Now, since you disagree, what is 'better'? > > > Better in what way? > > You're the one making the claim... up to you. I didn't claim anything. I simply observed what it is the market place finds better and why. > > Where I live corrosion from road salt is the main > > thing that shortens the life of brake rotors. If you want corrosion [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Noise dampening iron seems to refer to carbon content. For instance, > Brembo uses a high carbon content for noise reduction. Well, that may be how you and the marketing people at Brembo understand it. But if they are pushing noise reduction you can be sure it is gray iron. And if a company is not advertising a particular rotor is good for noise reduction then it probably isn't (unless their marketing people are just dimwits). -jim >> But it's not just those three, there are countless grades within each >> generic catagory. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > industry didn't just crawl out from under a cabbage leaf yesterday they > have had this sort of stuff worked out for along time. Thank you captain obvious. >>Given general practices in China, I would suspect that >> process controls and material substitutions would result in very poor >> parts. One could get a 'grey cast iron' rotor made of a low grade that is >> suspect of even meeting those requirements that performs poorly but that >> doesn't mean all grey cast iron is bad for brake rotors. > I don't know why process control would be any different for a Chinese > foundry than an American. If any thing they may be more quality > conscious. Considering the cost of shipping something so heavy from > China if they get a batch of castings rejected they are going to be out > a lot more than when it happens to an American foundry. The culture in china is entirely different. They don't know and/or just don't care for the most part. >> >> The Bosch automotive handbook reads: >> >> "Gray cast iron brake disks with bilaterally acting calipers have proven [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> You were saying what was better, I just brought up another source that >> has a differing opinion. > I merely said that the rotors you see in parts stores are most often not > gray iron. I made the mistake of expanding on that and offering a > possible reason. From that you conclude I have something against gray > iron? No. I want to say: A) what they are and why it's better. goose, gander, all that sort of thing. >> >> Now, since you disagree, what is 'better'? >> >> > Better in what way? >> >> You're the one making the claim... up to you. > I didn't claim anything. I simply observed what it is the market place > finds better and why. Read your own words back to yourself. >> > Where I live corrosion from road salt is the main >> > thing that shortens the life of brake rotors. If you want corrosion [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> > of catastrophic failure. I suspect that property is what is given the >> > most consideration by manufacturers. >> There are various grades of each and there is considerable overlap in the >> ranges. The specific grade and manufacturing processes is what it all >> comes down to. >> Noise dampening iron seems to refer to carbon content. For instance, >> Brembo uses a high carbon content for noise reduction. > Well, that may be how you and the marketing people at Brembo understand > it. But if they are pushing noise reduction you can be sure it is gray > iron. And if a company is not advertising a particular rotor is good for > noise reduction then it probably isn't (unless their marketing people > are just dimwits). You know that exactly how? You cut up rotors and examine the microstructure? > You know that exactly how? You cut up rotors and examine the microstructure? Well no, but I did that once back in a different life. Determining whether something is made of gray iron is pretty simple. Hit it with something hard (like a screw driver handle) if it goes thud its gray iron. If it rings (like a bell) it is not. The vibration damping properties of gray iron is quite obvious. -jim >>> Yes you are right most people can't tell the difference between gray >>> iron and ductile iron. White iron is not very machinable so it's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > industry didn't just crawl out from under a cabbage leaf yesterday they > have had this sort of stuff worked out for along time. Uh huh... I'm sure you can do all this testing in a parts store or over the internet while you're trying to determine if you should buy the $19 rotor, the $49 rotor, or the $99 rotor. Ray >Uh huh... I'm sure you can do all this testing in a parts store or over >the internet while you're trying to determine if you should buy the $19 >rotor, the $49 rotor, or the $99 rotor. Most of the time you don't care. Tap it on the parts counter and see if it goes clang or it goes thunk. That tells you most of what you want to know. Look at the surface. Does it look nice and clean or does it look like the Three Stooges got their hands on a turret lathe? --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >> Uh huh... I'm sure you can do all this testing in a parts store or over >> the internet while you're trying to determine if you should buy the $19 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > like the Three Stooges got their hands on a turret lathe? > --scott I don't even do that - I just buy the cheap stuff usually unless I NEED it for heavy duty/hi perf type application. For those, I go with brand name parts only, and only brand names that I trust. an example -> after bending/breaking two balljoints on my dirt track camaro, I only use Moog balljoints. Ray >> Uh huh... I'm sure you can do all this testing in a parts store or over >> the internet while you're trying to determine if you should buy the $19 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > it goes clang or it goes thunk. That tells you most of what you want to > know. So thunk is the gray iron and clang isn't. Which is good and which is bad? >>> Uh huh... I'm sure you can do all this testing in a parts store or over >>> the internet while you're trying to determine if you should buy the $19 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > So thunk is the gray iron and clang isn't. Which is good and which is bad? This was a serious question. I'm not a metallurgist and I don't play one on TV. SignaturePostulate a group whose intent is to destroy the United States from within via anarchy and bankruptcy. The actions of the United States Congress are completely consistent with the actions one would predict from such a group. > > So thunk is the gray iron and clang isn't. Which is good and which is bad? > > This was a serious question. I'm not a metallurgist and I don't play one > on TV. It may not matter. You may not have a choice when you are sitting at the parts counter. The properties have already been discussed in the thread. Gray iron is not as strong as ductile iron, which is generally not as strong as steel. Other than strength Gray iron makes an excellent rotor and it's biggest plus is it is very good for dampening vibration. -jim > >>> Yes you are right most people can't tell the difference between gray > >>> iron and ductile iron. White iron is not very machinable so it's [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the internet while you're trying to determine if you should buy the $19 > rotor, the $49 rotor, or the $99 rotor. Right. For all you know they are all identical and the only difference is the box and the price and they all could be from the same foundry in Kansas. -jim > The difference between the $19 dollar discs and $48 may be similar to > the difference between low sodium and regular foods at the super market > where they charge double for not adding salt. They charge what they > calculate people are willing to pay. The $48 ones are billed as "noise > dampening iron" which pretty much guarantees that they are less wear > resistant than the $19 dollar ones. For my cars, rotors not made in China are at least four times as expensive as those that are. Harder than hell to find, too. Only manufacturers I can identify are Bendix and BG. > so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), > which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > regards, michael I always go for the cheapest ones I can get and never have issues with them like the warping the expensive ones seem to have happen all the time. I only need to replace them if I messed up and missed changing a brake pad soon enough or I break something off road. I have been going this route since the 70's.... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), > which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > regards, michael It depends on the rotor. Some of the cheap ones are just fine. Others are made from questionable iron mixes and will have hard and soft spots across the surface depending on the mix. Hard to see just looking at them. The better ones are usually from places that actually test the iron and alloy it to the correct specs and then make the parts. They are usually much more uniform in quality between batches of parts as a result. The unidirectional types are cast from good iron AND the vent ribs are cast in a curved pattern that makes them more effective when rotated the correct direction. The lower end ones have straight ribs which will work but just like most parts they can be improved. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York > so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), > which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > and there are a few others scattered in-between. Joel Spolsky wrote a nice little article about this. It's not about brake rotors but about software pricing. But the principles apply anyway: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html In a nutshell, you make more money if you offer the same product at different prices. If you only offer it at one price, you miss out on making a greater profit from those who are willing to pay more, and don't sell at all to those who are only willing to pay less. If all you have to offer are $48 rotors, the guy who won't pay a cent over $19 will go somewhere else, and the guy who would otherwise shell out more than a hundred bucks will just give you $48 (or maybe even go somewhere else also, if he's convinced he must pay more than 100 bucks for rotors!) The market, quite simply, not only demands a product, but demands a pricing variety in that product. To meet that demand, you have to create pricing variety even where there isn't any underlying comparable variety in value. >> so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), >> which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > making a greater profit from those who are willing to pay more, and > don't sell at all to those who are only willing to pay less. I think the issue here isn't the fact it's the same product at multiple prices, but there are multiple products and multiple prices for the same application. We don't know if the $19 rotors are half cast iron, half ground up rocks... or are the $99 rotors in a different box. The $110 rotors are the best quality, or maybe $50 rotors with a crazy markup. It's also hard to evaluate a brake rotor in a parts store. Frankly, for my cars, I'll usually buy either the cheap parts and acknowledge the fact that it won't last as long, or if I need heavy duty or good quality parts I stick with certain brand names and don't worry about the price. Examples -> tires.... either the cheapest possible, or BFG. balljoints - the cheap ones last about 4-5 years in a street car, or 4-5 races in my race car. I buy cheap ones for the street, nothing but Moog for the race car. Ray > It's also hard to evaluate a brake rotor in a parts store. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ray It is impossible to evaluate a rotor in a parts store. We would HOPE (but I wouldnt bet on it) that there are agencies which quality approve this sort of part to keep dangerous materials or processes from coming into our market. I learned my lesson years ago on cheap tires. There might be cheap tires that are good, but the tires I am pretty sure are good all cost money. And I am willing to pay for quality in this arena. >> It's also hard to evaluate a brake rotor in a parts store. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I learned my lesson years ago on cheap tires. < snip > It'd be nice if rotors had stamped ratings much like tires. As it now stands, we pretty much have to trial and error to determine the good ones; means we have to guinea-pig our customers! I've found tire ratings are at least relative even tho' actual mileages might be exaggerated. In early '90's, cheap brake and tire stores sprung up around here. Used cars we sent to auctions would bring just as much with new cheap tires as with new better ones--unless maybe they were Michelins. Then, "Will they hold up for our nicer, retail cars"? Put a set on my pickup, one on wife's car. Partner did same with his car and his daughter's car. His daughter, sitting at a red light, tires with no more than a coupla thousand miles, & one blew out--on sidewall iirc(I always kinda thought she had hit sidewall on something Regardless, she immediately got new, better tires). His car needed new tires at approx. 8-10 k. He drove like a working fireman--accelerated and stopped fast. His car would wear flat spots "overnite". My vehicles would need new tires, tho' worn more evenly, after about 12-15K miles. Altho' tires were pretty they had ratings of like B,C,C. Size ~ 205-75-15 cost about $135, installed and balanced. Decent tires that would run about 35-40K for me cost about $180, installed & balanced, and had ratings ~A,B, B. That ended using el cheapos on cars we retailed: too much danger, not to mention poor mileage. Again, rotors desperately need reliable ratings. s >> so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), >> which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >create pricing variety even where there isn't any underlying >comparable variety in value. No way to be sure but I suspect that in many cases the only difference between the $19 rotor and the $48 rotor is the box they come in and the length of the warranty. well, i've certainly gotten an education from all of you that provided answers. some additional research i've done has provided me with the decision to go with a slightly higher priced rotor than the $20 unit. not the fact that higher priced means anything. be that as it may, i went with a Wagner ($45) for this go-round. the car (z-28) has 150k, so i figure it was time to retire the original rotors. one of my thoughts concerning this is that, with the option of purchasing a $20 rotor, i'd change the rotors out everytime i change pads - i would never expect to get 80/100/150 k miles out of a set of $20 rotors. the Z is my daily driver and i dont "dog" the car. i drive as sane as the next "ordinary" driver. dont get me rwong, i do occasionally get her up to speed out on the back roads. obviously, i want to match the proper components for this style of car, with "good value". i dont want to over-extend myself financially because i do not weekend-race this car and i dont push it to its absolute limit. as a point of contrast, i have a 90 Trooper with which i did a complete brake overhaul. i replaced everything: rotors, pads, calipers, master cylinder ... i used the $20 rotors on this vehicle because i *rarely* use it. mostly only to pick up stuff at the hardware store. (i cant remember the last time i started it up:) so with this vehicle, i figured the $20 rotors will be sufficient. but i have a concern on the Z28 because of its daily use. (the 64 Buick LeSabre convertible will not get the $20 drums :) thanks for all the input - i appreciate it! regards, michael > thanks for all the input - i appreciate it! > > regards, michael Normally, there is no reason to change rotors with each pad change. The last rotors I changed on one of my cars were on an 89 Regal and the change happened ca 1996. These rotors were eaten up by road salt. If the rotors are true, and you install them true, that is a good start. But you cant just have them machined, or take new ones out of a box, and install them, and be sure they will be "true". Read the Babcox site if you are not sure what I mean. NEVER, never, never let anyone use an impact wrench on your lugnuts. Even if they have torque stix and promise you it will be okay. I was burned on this twice at Discount Tire, and now I always torque my own lugnuts with my own torque wrench. No matter what anyone says, the use of an impact wrench CAN lead to distortion of the rotor. i thought i'd follow up and let y'all know what the eventual outcome of my rotor post, since the parts arrived today: if nothing else, i'm impressed with the packaging of the Monroe pads. inside the sturdy box, the pads are shrink-wrapped to a cardboard insert. the outside of the box has, "Printed in Canada" and "Made in Canada". the Wagner rotors came in the typical square box. the "Wagner Brake Products" sticker on the outside of the box claims, "Printed in China" and "Made in China". the rotor, wrapped in a plastic cover, looks EXACTLY like the $19 rotors i bought for the '90 Trooper a few months ago. the casting and machining looks of high quality, the fins are symmetrical and very clean, with no casting side-effects in the fins. there are no stampings anywhere on the rotors. when i stand the rotor on its edge on a formica surface and tap the inner ring, the result is a "RING" that lasts for a few seconds. although i'll (we'll) never know the difference in metal content between this rotor and the Trooper's rotor, i will say the "workmanship" looks the same. regards, michael i thought i'd follow up and let y'all know what the eventual outcome of my rotor post, since the parts arrived today: if nothing else, i'm impressed with the packaging of the Monroe pads. inside the sturdy box, the pads are shrink-wrapped to a cardboard insert. the outside of the box has, "Printed in Canada" and "Made in Canada". the Wagner rotors came in the typical square box. the "Wagner Brake Products" sticker on the outside of the box claims, "Printed in China" and "Made in China". the rotor, wrapped in a plastic cover, looks EXACTLY like the $19 rotors i bought for the '90 Trooper a few months ago. the casting and machining looks of high quality, the fins are symmetrical and very clean, with no casting side-effects in the fins. there are no stampings anywhere on the rotors. when i stand the rotor on its edge on a formica surface and tap the inner ring, the result is a "RING" that lasts for a few seconds. although i'll (we'll) never know the difference in metal content between this rotor and the Trooper's rotor, i will say the "workmanship" looks the same. regards, michael >i thought i'd follow up and let y'all know what > the eventual outcome of my rotor post, since [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > regards, michael So, what is the bottom line here? Is there actually little or no difference in all these parts? Brembo rotors ar available for my car for $43 apiece. Is that a waste of money? It seems like the whole thing is quite a crapshoot, considering the very high importance of properly operating brakes. mg SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com [snipped] > So, what is the bottom line here? Is there actually little or no difference > in all these parts? Brembo rotors ar available for my car for $43 apiece. > Is that a waste of money? It seems like the whole thing is quite a > crapshoot, considering the very high importance of properly operating > brakes. i see Brembo rotors for my Z28 at tirerack.com for $43 USD, but who's to say that Brembo doesnt farm out manufacturing to their close neighbor, China? i mean, the Wagner's i bought have Made in China stamped on the "Wagner" stickers on the box. regards, michael > [snipped] >> So, what is the bottom line here? Is there actually little or no [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > regards, michael Wagner, Bendix, Raybestos all make solid brake products, but Brembo positions itself as a higher-quality supplier. A quick search shows nothing specific on their website about place of manufacture. They do claim tighter tolerances. ISO 9001, "special" cast iron, and various other manufacturing quality measures. So are you guaranteed getting a better product from them? It's an interesting question. It would be even more interesting if we were talking about parts that cost a lot of money. Rotors, at least, are relatively inexpensive. mg SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > [snipped] >> So, what is the bottom line here? Is there actually little or no difference [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > but who's to say that Brembo doesnt farm out manufacturing > to their close neighbor, China? Italy and China are no where near each other. And the brembo rotors I use are not made in china. I do not remember specifically however, but if it wasn't Italy it was some other first world nation. I should replace the rears in a few months or whenever the pads get worn down, those will stock replacements so I'll find out for that grade as well. > so i'm checking out prices for front rotors (1995 Z-28), > which range in price (at rockauto.com) from: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > regards, michael Reminds me of Tommy Boy Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting. Ted: I'm listening. Tommy: Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside. Ted: Yeah, makes a man feel good. Tommy: 'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter. Ted: What's your point? Tommy: The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times. Ted: But why do they put a guarantee on the box then? Tommy: Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of sh.t. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me. Ted: Hmm. Okay, I'll buy from you. Tom my: Well I... What? Many of the chain stores sell the same quality parts with different prices hoping you will feel better about your purchase. Ask to see some of the rotors and see if you can tell the difference in a $20 and $50 piece. Probly not. Happens a lot on brake pads. |
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