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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / June 200712 volt car heater/defroster that works?
HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went and they did the bypass thing as I couldn't afford the heater core replacement, whew, like $700. So, I have been checking into this alternative but most reviewers say they are a hunk of junk. Finally, if there is a cheaper alternative please redirect me. Thanks for listening and assisting, psongman It depends on your needs, which mostly depends on where you live. Depending on the cars electrical system I'd say you can't reliably pull more than 200 watts for any length of time, and that is while cruising. 200 watts isn't going to produce a lot of heat. A hair dryer is around 1000 watts or so, which is five times as much, and that too may be low depending on climate. > HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt > heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went and > they did the bypass thing as I couldn't afford the heater core > replacement, whew, like $700. So, I have been checking into this > alternative but most reviewers say they are a hunk of junk. Well, the current is the problem. The ones I've seen are around 300 watts, which at 12v is 25 amps. You can't really draw much more than that without a wire direct to the battery, but then you have another problem. I don't know how big your alternator is, but 60 amps would be a good wild guess, and it has to run everything else too. So if you try to draw 50 amps for a couple of those little heaters, you're going to have a problem. (I don't know where you live, but you'd need more than two of them around here.) > Finally, if there is a cheaper alternative please redirect me. You could fix it yourself. Heater cores are cheap. It's expensive to pay someone to do it because in some cars it's a real pain and takes a long time. Buy a Haynes or Chilton's manual first. Or, if the leak is small, you could try some radiator stop leak. I've found Alumaseal and Bars Leaks to work best. -Dan > HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt > heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > if there is a cheaper alternative please redirect me. Thanks for > listening and assisting, psongman I don't know about car electric heaters from experience, but the current draw and energy expenditure for one to actually be effective would be very high. It would likely need a transformer and hard wiring. I really responded to ask what year Escort. If this is an old Escort up to about 1990, the heater core is very easy to replace. You would be wise to do it yourself. Even if it took a weekend, the time would be well spent. The core is available at chain stores for about $40. If you have a newer Ford/Mazda Escort, then I think that the evaporator has to be moved and the A/C system discharged to get to the heater core. This would be beyond a DIYer's ability, mainly due to opening the A/C system. I have done the older style and it is a piece of cake. Toyota MDT in MO >I don't know about car electric heaters from experience, but the >current draw and energy expenditure for one to actually be effective >would be very high. It would likely need a transformer and hard >wiring. Transforming DC? Nice trick. On Jun 19, 8:24 pm, h...@weersy.com wrote: > >I don't know about car electric heaters from experience, but the > >current draw and energy expenditure for one to actually be effective > >would be very high. It would likely need a transformer and hard > >wiring. > > Transforming DC? Nice trick. DC to DC, y'know, with a rectifier. Would a transformer *not* be used? I thought so. Toyota MDT in MO AC to dc uses a transformer/rectifier, at least in the old days. :) Now it seems they can dispense with the transformer, judging from how lite battery chargers are these days--solid-state magic? DC to AC uses a solid state inverter. In the old days, a mechanical inverter. DC to dc proly uses some combination. Wasn't even possible, practically speaking, until relatively recently.  Signature------ Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message: Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican. Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way* to Materially Improve Your Family's Life. The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive! entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, all d'numbuhs > On Jun 19, 8:24 pm, h...@weersy.com wrote: >> >I don't know about car electric heaters from experience, but the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO On Jun 20, 7:50 am, "Proctologically Violated??" <entropic3.14de...@optonline2.718.net> wrote: > AC to dc uses a transformer/rectifier, at least in the old days. :) > Now it seems they can dispense with the transformer, judging from how lite [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Yeah, I felt a response coming when I typed transformer instead of inverter, but it seemed adequate at the time given the OP doesn't know *why* a 12V heater won't work well. Anyway, the commercially available ones I am aware of that would pass high amperage at 120 volts AC are still big and heavy. They appear to be conventional DC to DC converters with a transformer. Many smaller ones have appeared, but with very low wattage limitations from what I've seen. Toyota MDT in MO >Yeah, I felt a response coming when I typed transformer instead of >inverter, but it seemed adequate at the time given the OP doesn't know [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to DC converters with a transformer. Many smaller ones have appeared, >but with very low wattage limitations from what I've seen. Also, of course, the problem is getting power out of the battery. Cranking the voltage up with an inverter doesn't help you do that. If you want 1200 watts, you either need to get 100 amps at 12V, or 10 amps at 120V... and if you use an inverter to get those 10 amps at 120V it will require at least 100 amps at 12V into it. There is no free lunch. You do not get power for free, and sadly it takes a whole lot of power to make heat. This makes you really appreciate just how good the power density of gasoline really is. You get a whole lot of heat out of a little gasoline. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >Yeah, I felt a response coming when I typed transformer instead of > >inverter, but it seemed adequate at the time given the OP doesn't know [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > and if you use an inverter to get those 10 amps at 120V it will require > at least 100 amps at 12V into it. Certainly more if you factor inefficiency losses in the process. > There is no free lunch. You do not get power for free, and sadly it > takes a whole lot of power to make heat. This makes you really appreciate > just how good the power density of gasoline really is. You get a whole lot > of heat out of a little gasoline. Not to mention *free* heat, as the various powerplants in use today don't use their generated heat very effectively. Shed heat might as well go to some *good* use like cabin heating, besides just soaking into the condenser and atmosphere. Toyota MDT in MO >> Also, of course, the problem is getting power out of the battery. Cranking >> the voltage up with an inverter doesn't help you do that. If you want [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Certainly more if you factor inefficiency losses in the process. Yes, but the GOOD news is that all the losses come out as heat, which is what you want in the end anyway. >> There is no free lunch. You do not get power for free, and sadly it >> takes a whole lot of power to make heat. This makes you really appreciate [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >well go to some *good* use like cabin heating, besides just soaking >into the condenser and atmosphere. Precisely! If only VW could have figured out how to deliver it properly.... --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." In NYC, Con Ed generation plants sell their waste steam, which is still perty high pressure for waste steam, to various building for heat. They charge a fortune for it, as well. Signature------ Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message: Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican. Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way* to Materially Improve Your Family's Life. The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive! entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, all d'numbuhs >>> Also, of course, the problem is getting power out of the battery. >>> Cranking [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > properly.... > --scott In article <Yn9ei.5$_Y7.4@newsfe12.lga>, >AC to dc uses a transformer/rectifier, at least in the old days. :) They still do. >Now it seems they can dispense with the transformer, judging from how lite >battery chargers are these days--solid-state magic? What they do is rectify the AC, then use a solid-state inverter running at a very high frequency. The high frequency means the transformer is very tiny and very inexpensive. >DC to AC uses a solid state inverter. In the old days, a mechanical >inverter. Yes. >DC to dc proly uses some combination. Wasn't even possible, practically >speaking, until relatively recently. Back in the old days, you'd either do it with motor-generator sets or with a mechanical inverter driving a transformer driving a rectifier stack (as seen in most old car radios to get the high voltage for the tube plates.) The economics are totally different than they were when I was a kid. Used to be transformers were cheap and switching electronics were expensive. Now switching electronics are cheap and transformers are expensive. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >On Jun 19, 8:24 pm, h...@weersy.com wrote: >> >I don't know about car electric heaters from experience, but the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >I thought so. Think not. A DC to Dc converter electronically creates an alternating current that then can be converted to a higher voltage through a transformer. Then it can be rectified back into a higher voltage DC. Why would anyone want to do this? The process is inefficient. On Jun 21, 3:36 am, t...@mucks.net wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jun 2007 05:19:53 -0700, Comboverfish > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Why would anyone want to do this? The process is inefficient. It IS inefficient for a motor + resistance load esp. in a 12v system... but I don't understand your other point. You agree that a DC to DC inverter uses a transformer, then disagree that a DC to DC inverter uses a transformer. Let's rephrase the statement for those who didn't read/get the whole gist of the post back when it meant something: "Many DC to DC converters use a transformer, among other devices, to achieve their goal." To this I again say "I think so". I went off tangent a few posts back and wrote 'dc to dc' which in of itself would not make sense for a high voltage heater/fan. The original intent was to show the silly and bulky nature of what would be required to create heat electrically vs just replacing the heater core. Again, I should have typed 'inverter'. Next we can go over the alternate methods to step up DC voltage to either AC or DC without the use of a transformer. That'll serve the OP well, I'm sure. Toyota MDT in MO >It IS inefficient for a motor + resistance load esp. in a 12v >system... but I don't understand your other point. You agree that a >DC to DC inverter uses a transformer, then disagree that a DC to DC >inverter uses a transformer. Yes a DC to DC converter does use a transformer and rectifier, but it would be incorrect to say that DC to DC conversion involves rectifying and transforming without mentioning the most important and relevant part of the process. That part is to first make an AC signal. >>On Jun 19, 8:24 pm, h...@weersy.com wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Why would anyone want to do this? The process is inefficient. Actually, its not all that inefficient. But it depends on what the final goal is- if you are trying to operate devices that by design require higher than 12 volts (24 or 48 volt radio amplifiers, etc) then it makes sense. But just to run current through a resistor to make heat? No need in that case. >HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt >heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. No. Think about it. If you have a 20 amp circuit at 12V, you can draw 240 watts. That's not very much heat. Compare with a couple kilowatts from a conventional heater. >The heater core went >and they did the bypass thing as I couldn't afford the heater core >replacement, whew, like $700. So, I have been checking into this >alternative but most reviewers say they are a hunk of junk. Finally, >if there is a cheaper alternative please redirect me. Thanks for >listening and assisting, psongman Replacing the heater core on an Escort isn't actually very bad if you don't care what the dashboard looks like afterward. You can cut into it with a saw and get to the core without too much fuss. Most of that $700 is involved in taking the thing apart and putting it together so it doesn't look like sh.t. But if you don't mind it looking like sh.t, you should be able to do it for a lot less. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt > heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > if there is a cheaper alternative please redirect me. Thanks for > listening and assisting, psongman The old Escorts are pretty easy to fix. You should be able to get a new copper core for less than $50. If this is just a work car I would be tempted to stick a core on the air vent, either inside the car or on the air intake. Or just lay it on the floor with a little 12v fan blowing on it. >> HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt >> heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > air intake. Or just lay it on the floor with a little 12v fan blowing > on it. My thought, as well. Also could wire in a second battery, just for 12 V heater(s). When it's low, flip a switch to let the alternator charge it, or have a sep. charger at home. They also make 12 V electric blankets, which can help quite a bit. Esp. if the Wife puts you out. :) Signature------ Mr. P.V.'d (formerly Droll Troll), Yonkers, NY Stop Corruption in Congress & Send the Ultimate Message: Absolutely Vote, but NOT for a Democrat or a Republican. Ending Corruption in Congress is the *Single Best Way* to Materially Improve Your Family's Life. The Solution is so simple--and inexpensive! entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, all d'numbuhs Haha, I love the blanket thingie if thrown out by wife or girl friend in my case...will get one and put it in the back for the winter. Well, I have asked around, the install of the heater core is a b......, from what I've been told. I can see where it would be difficult to put everything back after you took it off, like instrument panel-wise, esp. from my olden days of working on my bike, no, not cycle, the pedalling kind, hehe! I think that perhaps there is some workaround. Since it is bypassed now, couldn't some kind of heater core be attached somewhere else and the hot air sent in. I'll bet a 12 volt hair dryer would work better from some of my feedback about those 12 portable heaters. How can they sell that junk if it doesn't work? If I attempted that with one of my songs, I would have no returning clientele....seems strange that someone wouldn't just design a 12v''er that would heat and defrost an older car. Oh well, keep the cards and letters coming in, psongman On Jun 19, 10:14 pm, "Proctologically Violated??" <entropic3.14de...@optonline2.718.net> wrote: > >> HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt > >> heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > entropic3.14decay at optonline2.718 dot net; remove pi and e to reply--ie, > all d'numbuhs > How can they sell that junk if it doesn't work? It works as well as it can be made to work, given the technical limitations, which I and a couple others have explained to you. > seems strange that someone wouldn't just design a 12v''er that would > heat and defrost an older car. Let me simplify my original answer a bit further: Short answer: It's not possible to get more than a fraction of the necessary heat from 12v in a car. Slightly longer answer: Anything's possible, but it would cost a lot more than you want to spend, and you're a long way from the knowledge necessary to do it yourself without really messing up your car. It's way past the impractical point, even for someone knowledgable enough to do it. -Dan > > HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt > > heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > air intake. Or just lay it on the floor with a little 12v fan blowing > on it. I'd think twice about such a set up... no doubt it would work, but say you were in an accident, or the core or hoses were damaged for any reason, you and/or your passengers could be seriously scalded. Also, even a small hole punched in the core by whatever rolling around on the floor would very quickly fog up the windows... the colder out out the faster. Erik No, this Escort is a 1995. You know we had the car inspected and the oil changed the day before but probably just a coincidence as it was hot when it happened. The car is getting old, like all vehicles they tend to begin unraveling. I have never had a heater core go on me before though. The engineers who designed it this way, denying easy access. Well, they should make them change one heater core, that would bring them back to the drawing boards. Why don't designers ask the regular driver and owner what they want and need in their vehicles, easier access to me, would be a given. Again, thanx for the assistance, psongman > > HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt > > heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > air intake. Or just lay it on the floor with a little 12v fan blowing > on it. > No, this Escort is a 1995. You know we had the car inspected and the > oil changed the day before but probably just a coincidence as it was [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and owner what they want and need in their vehicles, easier access to > me, would be a given. Again, thanx for the assistance, psongman It's a trade off. Heater cores rarely fail in new (10-15 year old) cars, so making it easy to get to is not high on the priority list when others issues are. The only true fix for your problem is to replace the heater core. Spend the bux and get it done the right way, or buy another car. As so many others have said in this thread, -any kind- of 12 volt heater simply won't put out enough heat to make a difference. If you're in a reallly cold area, you won't even feel the heat. Please consider what the heater core gas to do in sub-zero temperatures and how infrequently heater cores fail before making statements like: "The engineers who designed it this way, denying easy access. Well, they should make them change one heater core, that would bring them back to the drawing boards." Where else would you put the heater core so it would provide heat at minus 5 degrees and not take up precious room inside the very small car that you own. > On Jun 19, 11:51 pm, psongman <psong...@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > - Show quoted text - > Please consider what the heater core gas to do in sub-zero > temperatures and how infrequently heater cores fail before making [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > heater core so it would provide heat at minus 5 degrees and not take > up precious room inside the very small car that you own. I agree. A component that lasts 30+ years (provided you change the antifreeze at least once in a blue moon) can be buried deep and hard to access. Yes, its annoying when it does fail, but the alternative is to make other more likely to fail components harder to get to, give up passenger/cargo space, make the vehicle heavier, and make the vehicle more expensive. >I agree. A component that lasts 30+ years (provided you change the >antifreeze at least once in a blue moon) can be buried deep and hard to >access. Yes, its annoying when it does fail, but the alternative is to >make other more likely to fail components harder to get to, give up >passenger/cargo space, make the vehicle heavier, and make the vehicle >more expensive. How easy or hard it is to replace a heater core has little to no bearing on any of the reasons you list for making it hard to get to. The biggest bear in replacing the heater core is getting the plenum out of the car. They could easily design that plenum with an access panel that would allow you to get to the heater core and evaporator. They could also design an access cover in the floor pan to allow you to get to the fuel pump without having to pull the tank. They don't do so because those items aren't likely to fail under warranty. It isn't even likely that they will fail while the original owner has the car. It saves the manufacturer a few cents per car and those penny's add up when you make a gazillion cars. Steve B. > They could also design an access cover in the floor pan to allow you > to get to the fuel pump without having to pull the tank. I have an 87 Accord that has two circular access hatches trunk... one for the fuel pump, and the other for the fuel level sending unit. I actually had to do the fuel pump once, it was child's play. Only took a few minutes. Erik >> They could also design an access cover in the floor pan to allow you >> to get to the fuel pump without having to pull the tank. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Erik That is one of the reasons that Honda is doing well, and the big 3 are not. To a lot of people, details matter. > >> They could also design an access cover in the floor pan to allow you > >> to get to the fuel pump without having to pull the tank. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > That is one of the reasons that Honda is doing well, and the big 3 are > not. To a lot of people, details matter. That same Accord also has spare bulb holders molded into the inside plastic tail/brakelight access covers (but didn't come with spares installed). :( I've driven it since new, and have done 100% of the maintenance other than an alignment or two... it still has it's original starter, alternator, and even shock struts! It left me 'stranded' only once, and that was when the fuel pump failed. However, even that happened within easy walking distance of home. Best car I've ever owned... my only complaint is the paint has now lost it's 20 year battle with the Sun. Even so, it didn't start looking really skanky till 3 or 4 years ago. Erik >> I have an 87 Accord that has two circular access hatches trunk... one >> for the fuel pump, and the other for the fuel level sending unit. > That is one of the reasons that Honda is doing well, and the big 3 are > not. To a lot of people, details matter. Phooey- Chrysler LH cars have access panels over the fuel pump as well. AND most Chrysler engines aren't valve-smashers with timing belts like ALL Honduh engines are- now THAT is a dumb idea. >>> I have an 87 Accord that has two circular access hatches trunk... one >>> for the fuel pump, and the other for the fuel level sending unit. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > AND most Chrysler engines aren't valve-smashers with timing belts like > ALL Honduh engines are- now THAT is a dumb idea. Priced a junkyard 2.7 recently? > >>> I have an 87 Accord that has two circular access hatches trunk... one > >>> for the fuel pump, and the other for the fuel level sending unit. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Priced a junkyard 2.7 recently? Designing an engine to be 'non interference' in the event of a timing belt failure takes a big chunk out of it's efficiency potential. If you look, you'll notice most of today's engines are of the interference design. Here's a list of most of the engines out there right now... the ones footnoted with an asterisk are interference engines. Sorry about the long link, you may need to copy/past some to get it to work. The file it points to is a 2.7 MB pdf from the Gates website http://www.gates.com/downloads/download_common.cfm?file=TBR05.pdf&folder= brochure Erik >>>>>I have an 87 Accord that has two circular access hatches trunk... one >>>>>for the fuel pump, and the other for the fuel level sending unit. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > look, you'll notice most of today's engines are of the interference > design. But the GOOD ones aren't timed by a rubber band- Cadillac Northstar: chains, Chrysler 4.7 and Hemi: chains, even the otherwise mediocre Ford Modular has chains. Belts are fine for non-interference engines, not for valve-smashers. And yes, I know that the Chrysler "world engine" is a smasher. So is the 2nd-gen 3.5. Doesn't make it smart, but at least its not the WHOLE engine lineup like Honduh. > >I agree. A component that lasts 30+ years (provided you change the > >antifreeze at least once in a blue moon) can be buried deep and hard to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Steve B. It doesn't make sense to and I doubt that it is possible to make every part in the car easy to access. Why spend the money to provide great access for a part that rarely gets replaced. It would needlessly jack up the price of the car and complictate it's design. >>> I agree. A component that lasts 30+ years (provided you change the >>> antifreeze at least once in a blue moon) can be buried deep and hard to [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > access for a part that rarely gets replaced. It would needlessly > jack up the price of the car and complictate it's design. The "core" in heater core refers to the fact that it's actually the core of your car. They start with the heater CORE and build the rest of the car around it. Well, it sure seems that way. ;) Ray HI, I started a new thread about running some stop leak type additive just throught the heater core this fall, but I can't find it anywhere, wow, that is wierd. Anyone have any ideas where it could have gone? Thanks for helping, psongman > >>> I agree. A component that lasts 30+ years (provided you change the > >>> antifreeze at least once in a blue moon) can be buried deep and hard to [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I and others replied to it..... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 > HI, I started a new thread about running some stop leak type additive > just throught the heater core this fall, but I can't find it anywhere, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> - Show quoted text - >>I agree. A component that lasts 30+ years (provided you change the >>antifreeze at least once in a blue moon) can be buried deep and hard to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How easy or hard it is to replace a heater core has little to no > bearing on any of the reasons you list for making it hard to get to. I disagree. > They could easily design that plenum with an access > panel that would allow you to get to the heater core and evaporator. At the expense of a bigger plenum that eats into passenger space, makes the vehicle heavier, or makes it more expensive. Oh wait, I already said that... ;-) > They could also design an access cover in the floor pan to allow you > to get to the fuel pump without having to pull the tank. Chrysler LH cars already have that feature, and have had since their inception in 1993. >I disagree. and? >> They could easily design that plenum with an access >> panel that would allow you to get to the heater core and evaporator. > >At the expense of a bigger plenum that eats into passenger space, makes >the vehicle heavier, or makes it more expensive. Oh wait, I already said >that... ;-) and it is still just as wrong as it was the first time you said it. No inherent reason that the plenum has to be bigger to have a removable cover... nor more expensive and I think we can live with the extra ounce of plastic. > They could also design an access cover in the floor pan to allow you >> to get to the fuel pump without having to pull the tank. > >Chrysler LH cars already have that feature, and have had since their >inception in 1993. I'm glad they got something right. Steve B. >>I disagree. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > cover... nor more expensive and I think we can live with the extra > ounce of plastic. Go ahead. Design it, then if you think its so easy. What you're neglecting is maneuvering room. Just putting a trapdoor in a plenum doesn't gain you anything unless you provide room to get hands and tools in to release the part, and a clear path to maneuver the part out of the plenum. That means that you can't have other ducts, wires, and fittings in the way. Accomplishing all of that together makes it bigger, heavier, and more expensive. >Go ahead. Design it, then if you think its so easy. What you're >neglecting is maneuvering room. Just putting a trapdoor in a plenum [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >in the way. Accomplishing all of that together makes it bigger, heavier, >and more expensive. Oh now you are just trying to be silly. Of course you can have stuff in the way... You can't change the brake pads unless you take the tires off but you don't have the take the fenders off the car and drain the transmission fluid to change them. Pulling the dash off and removing a vent and some wires is no big deal compared to pulling an entire plenum out of the car and recovering the a/c refrigerant. Steve B. >>Go ahead. Design it, then if you think its so easy. What you're >>neglecting is maneuvering room. Just putting a trapdoor in a plenum [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Oh now you are just trying to be silly. No, I'm looking at the real-world cost/benefit trade of how you package a part that fails very rarely. > Of course you can have stuff > in the way... You can't change the brake pads unless you take the > tires off but you don't have the take the fenders off the car and > drain the transmission fluid to change them. Except on hondas and toyotas. To change front brake pads: Step one, remove left rear taillamp housing. Step two, reach in through hole and work your way to the front of the car..... :-p > Pulling the dash off and removing a vent and some wires is no big deal > compared to pulling an entire plenum out of the car and recovering the > a/c refrigerant. Actually, the big complaint with changing the cores (heater or AC evaporator) on the LH cars IS removing the dash- the exact thing you say should be so easy. All that trim and plastic-work takes forever to get apart without damaging it. Discharging and recharging the AC is trivial by comparison, and takes half the time. >> They could also design an access cover in the floor pan to allow you >>> to get to the fuel pump without having to pull the tank. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Steve B. FWIW, I have a 1990 Beretta and a 1990 Chev 1/2 Ton. Both are on the original fuel pumps. Ray > HI, I thought I would ask the knowing if there is a decent 12 volt > heater/defroster that I can get for my Escort. The heater core went [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > if there is a cheaper alternative please redirect me. Thanks for > listening and assisting, psongman new to this but where are you from? 700 is crazy. i work as a mechanic and thats a rip off. |
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