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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2007

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Why no fire?

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derek sollows - 01 Jul 2007 22:35 GMT
My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
through the wire - suggesting no High Voltage.
At the suggestion of a mechanic neighbour I scraped the coil to ground
the can - but no effect.

Ideas anyone?
Mike Romain - 01 Jul 2007 22:50 GMT
> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ideas anyone?

Distributor ground?  An easy check with a booster cable from the battery
negative to the distributor case or stalk.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
derek sollows - 01 Jul 2007 23:41 GMT
>> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

didn't try that  - - going to the garage right now!

Thanks - all ideas appreciated
derek sollows - 02 Jul 2007 00:00 GMT
>> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)

Darn -- no joy

Happy Canada Day , eh?
MasterBlaster - 02 Jul 2007 01:01 GMT
> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ideas anyone?

When did English cars switch from positive to negative ground? Not that (Lucas)
English (Lucas) cars (Lucas) have (Lucas) electrical (Lucas) problems.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 02 Jul 2007 01:07 GMT
I once put some new points in a 1971 Chevrolet van I used to own.The
engine wouldn't start up.I cleaned the points with some rubbing alcohol
and then the engine started up and ran fine.
cuhulin
Don Bruder - 02 Jul 2007 02:03 GMT
> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ideas anyone?

Erm, first, there shouldn't be any spark at the points in the first
place - points are in the low-voltage side of the circuit. Having them
open (and thus, having the magnetic field in the coil collapse) is what
causes the spark over on the high-side.

My first try would be putting a meter set to read resistance or
continuity on the primary side of the coil - Check for (relatively) low
resistance or just plain continuity. Second try would be doing the same
for the secondary - If either says "no juice getting through, boss", the
coil is crap (despite being new). Take it back and tell 'em you want one
that works. Both show a complete circuit? OK, now it's time to set up a
spark plug on the end of a cable, nicely grounded, with the other end of
the cable plugged directly into the secondary post of the coil. Now
jumper straight from the battery to the primary side - just "tap" the
jumper to the primary terminal while observing the spark plug gap. Got
spark? If yes, then the problem is someplace else. If no, then the coil
is crap. Take it back and demand they replace it with a working unit.

Next thing I'd do is check the continuity of the points - Hook a jumper
from battery to one side of a meter set to read volts, the other side of
the meter to the usual "input" terminal of the points, and the other
side of the points to ground. Now crank the engine. Meter should jump
(to about battery voltage) and drop (to close-enough to zero) as the
points close and open, respectively. Doesn't happen? You've got
something hosed in the wiring to the points.

Next step, assuming those pan out:
Disconnect the wire between the points and coil. Attach it to one side
of your meter, set to read volts. Other side of your meter goes to
ground. Everything else wired "as normal". Crank engine. Meter jumps up
and down as points close and open? All is well. Otherwise, you've got
troubles in the wiring feeding the points. Perhaps in the harness
between the ignition switch and the points, perhaps in the switch
itself, perhaps elsewhere, but regardless of where it is, you've got a
problem.

Give it a go and let us know how things work out.

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
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sdlomi2 - 02 Jul 2007 02:22 GMT
> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ideas anyone?
   Did it do the same before the new points and condensor?  Sure 12vdc is
reaching points?  (1)No voltage to points, yielding no spark  (2)12vdc
getting to BOTH sides of the points, yielding no difference in potential
between contacts, resulting in no spark (3) #2 can be caused by points being
shorted: both contacts grounded to each other  (4) I'd try new condensor &
assure it is bolted tight AND new points.  Check continuity between the 2
contacts when NO voltage is applied.
   When checking for spark, first ensure points are 'broken', and use a
screwdriver to intermittently touch both contacts while watching for spark.
If all else fails, remove dist. and test with 12vdc applied on workbench.
When all this has been done, your problem should become apparent--else get a
pro to do this same bench test.
   Hope this helps,   s
Scott Dorsey - 02 Jul 2007 13:46 GMT
>My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Ideas anyone?

Is there voltage on either side of the coil primary?
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Don Bruder - 02 Jul 2007 16:28 GMT
> >My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> >into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Is there voltage on either side of the coil primary?
> --scott

Only a meaningful question if/when the points are closed.

With points open, there should be no voltage at the primary - on either
the hot or ground side.

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

Steve - 02 Jul 2007 18:59 GMT
>>>My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>>>into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> With points open, there should be no voltage at the primary - on either
> the hot or ground side.

Au Contraire. With the points open, a voltmeter should show full voltage
at BOTH the hot and ground sides of the primary. The points GROUND the
ground side of the primary when they close.
Don Bruder - 02 Jul 2007 20:00 GMT
> >>>My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> >>>into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> at BOTH the hot and ground sides of the primary. The points GROUND the
> ground side of the primary when they close.

With one exception, my experience has been that the circuit is battery
--> ignition switch --> points --> coil --> ground. Of course, it should
work just as well with points between coil and ground, but as noted,
will definitely change the meter reading!

But I've only seen it that way personally once - on a Ferguson TO-30
tractor from about 1949, which had been rewired (poorly) by someone in
the process of converting it from a 6 volt positive ground system to a
12 volt negative ground setup. I assumed that the points being on the
ground side of the coil was a (mostly harmless) screwup on the part of
the person who did the conversion/rewiring, since I'd never seen things
set up that way before, and the rest of the rewiring job was so
hideously bad. (I'll never understand why that tractor's entire
electrical system didn't simply go up in smoke the first time somebody
hit the switch...)

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

cuhulin@webtv.net - 02 Jul 2007 21:32 GMT
www.devilfinder.com    1968 Lotus Ignition System

Well, I don't know, you might find something there.Or go to an Autozone
or similar auto parts store and see if they have a Haynes and or a
Chilton's manual book for your car.
cuhulin
Steve - 02 Jul 2007 22:08 GMT
>>>>>My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>>>>>into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> With one exception, my experience has been that the circuit is battery
> --> ignition switch --> points --> coil --> ground.

I've NEVER seen that setup on any American car, nor any of the (few)
foreign cars with points I've ever worked on, though I'm sure it has
been done occasionally. For starters, doing it that requires TWO wires
to the distributor plus fully insulated point contacts on both sides.
Its much more complicated and harder to manufacture than simply
grounding the non-moving breaker point contact in the distributor and
running a single wire from the coil "-" terminal to the distributor.
Steve B. - 02 Jul 2007 22:33 GMT
>With one exception, my experience has been that the circuit is battery
>--> ignition switch --> points --> coil --> ground. Of course, it should
>work just as well with points between coil and ground, but as noted,
>will definitely change the meter reading!

I think memory might be playing a trick on you.    I've owned quite a
few American cars with points and a few foreign ones with points. None
of these cars were wired the way you describe above.  They have all
been battery -> ignition switch ->  voltage dropping device
(resistance wire or block) ->  coil  -> points

               Steve B.
dahpater - 03 Jul 2007 00:50 GMT
> >With one exception, my experience has been that the circuit is battery
> >--> ignition switch --> points --> coil --> ground. Of course, it should
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>                 Steve B.

http://www.procarcare.com/icarumba/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/icar_resourcecent
er_encyclopedia_ignition.asp

cuhulin@webtv.net - 03 Jul 2007 01:08 GMT
Many years ago, the contact points were screwed on to the two pieces
that holds the contact points.Replaceable contact points were sold in
stores.If the old contact points were burnt out, you simply removed the
old contact points and replaced them with new contact points.
cuhulin
Scott Dorsey - 02 Jul 2007 19:11 GMT
>> >My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>> >into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>With points open, there should be no voltage at the primary - on either
>the hot or ground side.

No, other way around.  The hot wire from the ignition switch goes to
one wire on the coil primary.  The other wire on the coil primary goes
to the points, which short to ground.

SO, with the points open, you should measure 12V on both sides of the
coil primary.  And if you short the second side of the coil primary
(the wire that goes to the distributor) to ground, you should get a nice
fat spark off the secondary.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

clifto - 03 Jul 2007 04:40 GMT
>>With points open, there should be no voltage at the primary - on either
>>the hot or ground side.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (the wire that goes to the distributor) to ground, you should get a nice
> fat spark off the secondary.

I have to agree. I've never seen a set of points that had provisions
for insulating the body of the point set from ground.

Signature

                         Happy Birthday, Canada!
                       July 1, 1867 - July 1, 2007
   In honor of Canada's birthday, all Canadians are directed to spend Sunday
                         in their birthday suits.

HLS@nospam.nix - 02 Jul 2007 16:22 GMT
> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ideas anyone?

Im going to be very fundamental here and hope it doesnt offend you.

Kettering systems, as yours appears to be, are dead simple to work on.  Your
ignition
switch allows 12v to the coil and points, both in Start and Run position.
Note that
the coil has a + and - terminal, usually.  These are not interchangeable,
but if hooked
up backwards, they will run after a fashion...usually.

The coil causes a spark when the points OPEN, not when they close.  Just
wanted
to be very clear on this.

In the ignition key Start position, full voltage (and therefore current) is
available to
saturate the coil field and allow a hotter spark.

In Run, the current is limited so that the ignition components will hold up
longer.
(Sometimes this resistor fails, and the car will try to start, but cannot
run when the
key is moved from Start to Run)

I have seen bad condensors right out of the box.  Shorted, or out of
capacitance spec.
I have also seen new points that shorted to ground because they were
improperly
assembled or installed.  Be sure those two components are in good shape and
that
the points gap (when the distributor cam follower is on the top of the
distributor
cam lobe) is accurately adjusted. (resistance to ground should be
essentially infinite
when the points are open, and essentially zero when closed)

As others have mentioned, one side of the points/condensor is grounded. The
other
side should measure ca 12V when the key is in Start or Run position.

If all is in order, then start looking at the coil.

You should look for the spark at the wire coming out of the coil, not yet at
the sparkplug.  If, for example, you have a bad rotor or distributor cap,
the
spark can short to ground and never get to the plug.

I am repeating some things others have already said, I am sure, but my point
(which I probably didnt make very well) is to understand how the system
works
and to go through it systematically.
derek sollows - 04 Jul 2007 21:24 GMT
>> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> works
> and to go through it systematically.

The responses received have been outstanding. My service manual does NOT
  show a resistance device between the ignition switch and the primary
(positive) side of the coil.  The wire travels direct from fuse panel to
  the tachometer where it is wrapped once around an induction post and
then direct to the positive primary connection of the coil.  There is a
wire from the negative primary post on the coil conducting 12 vdc to one
side (input side) of the points.

COULD THIS BE A PROBLEM?

It looks like my next move will be to replace the main coil wire since
so many other already operational components have been replaced without
noticeable effect.

I will report back -

Thanks for the several very knowledgeable responses.
Steve Austin - 04 Jul 2007 23:30 GMT
>>> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>>> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
> Thanks for the several very knowledgeable responses.

Some coils run on 12v with no ballast resister.
HLS@nospam.nix - 05 Jul 2007 00:14 GMT
> >>> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> >>> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
>
> Some coils run on 12v with no ballast resister.

This is true... Some start and run at the same current level.
The OP really needs a schematic so that he can trace the voltage and
current.
These systems are not complicated at all, but if you dont know how the
wiring
goes, it can have you scratching your sensitive body parts and wondering.
derek sollows - 07 Jul 2007 01:49 GMT
>>>> My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
>>>> into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
>
> Some coils run on 12v with no ballast resister.
Okay Guys : She's running!!!!!

I took a print of HLS's system review, grabbed 2 son's and an electrical
tester and guess what we found?

As before, everything tested fine right to the breaker points -  but
they were not conductive.  I dismantled the points - which were shiney
and new and in an absentminded sort of a way (I was watching the other 2
work) I scraped the contact surface with my knife.  There was a clear
coating on the points!!  I don't recall anything like this happening in
the old days  - but both surfaces were sealed with a very clear material.

Things move forward -- thanks to all who helped with this.

Now to do the other tasks to get her back on the road!

Oh, I'm sure you want to know this, - the sound is not your average Fast
And Furious "fart-can" sound.  This is a sound from the '60's. headers
thru a chrome Harley muffler .  a real RAP to it.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 07 Jul 2007 11:52 GMT
Like I mentioned before, I once installed some new points in a 1971
Chevrolet van I used to own and the engine wouldn't start up.I cleaned
the points with a rag and some rubbing alcohol and then the engine
started right up and ran just fine.It seems to me there should be some
sort of notice on the packages those new points are packaged in to clean
the points before installing.I guess that stuff on those new points are
suppose to keep them from rusting, or to keep them bright and shiny
looking.
cuhulin
hls - 08 Jul 2007 20:34 GMT
"derek sollows" <dsollows@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message news:468ee318$0$4322
> I took a print of HLS's system review, grabbed 2 son's and an electrical
> tester and guess what we found?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> the points!!  I don't recall anything like this happening in the old
> ays  - but both surfaces were sealed with a very clear material.

Im glad you got it firing.  Good on ya', and your two sons as well.  It is
really good that you and your boys work on cars together.  Nowadays,
most youngsters only know "key" and "gasoline".
MasterBlaster - 08 Jul 2007 23:27 GMT
"derek sollows" wrote

> As before, everything tested fine right to the breaker points -  but they
> were not conductive.  I dismantled the points - which were shiney and new
> and in an absentminded sort of a way (I was watching the other 2 work) I
> scraped the contact surface with my knife.  There was a clear coating on
> the points!!  I don't recall anything like this happening in the old
> ays  - but both surfaces were sealed with a very clear material.

Brand new points? Maybe they were shrink-wrapped onto the packaging card,
and when they were pulled out to be installed some of the plastic got left behind.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 10 Jul 2007 02:57 GMT
> > My 1968 Lotus (Ford 'Kent' engine)has a new coil, new condenser, 12vdc
> > into the breaker 'points' and WILL NOT spark either at the points or
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> available to
> saturate the coil field and allow a hotter spark.

And because the system voltage gets pulled down to 10V (or less) during
cranking. Leaving the current limiting resistor in circuit would result
in a weaker spark than during normal running.

> In Run, the current is limited so that the ignition components will hold up
> longer.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> other
> side should measure ca 12V when the key is in Start or Run position.

...when the points are open. If the distributor cam is betwen lobes or
the points are misadjusted or worn, they'll be closed and then the
voltage across the cap will be zero.


Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world,
those who understand binary and those who don't.

hls - 10 Jul 2007 12:55 GMT
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote in message
>> As others have mentioned, one side of the points/condensor is grounded.
>> The
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the points are misadjusted or worn, they'll be closed and then the
> voltage across the cap will be zero.

Absolutely correct, Paul. Thanks for mentioning it. It clarified what I had
tried to
say, and failed somewhat.
 
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