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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2007

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probably a dumb question, but I have to ask....

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BSAKing@hotmail.com - 02 Jul 2007 12:06 GMT
I have an older car that sits a lot of the winter and I just fire it
up occasionally, then drive it in the summer.

The other day, I drove home, parked and then it would not start. The
engine would not even turn over. Then I stuck the key in again and it
almost threw the engine out of the car turning over. I have had this
happen numerous times and it has always been the battery - one cell
goes bad and those are exactly the symptoms.

I took the battery in and it checked out ok, but I suspect it still
may die again. I go thru one every 2-3 years sitting this way. It's
under lifetime warrantee as long as I own the car, so I don't really
care.

Now - I am cleaning up connections, etc just as a precaution since I
dont want to get stuck somewhere and I have heard that a starter can
develop a 'flat spot' from sitting too long.

My question is - is this actually a possibility (a starter developing
a flat spot), or a misnomer, or an old garage hoax....???
jim - 02 Jul 2007 12:38 GMT
> Now - I am cleaning up connections, etc just as a precaution since I
> dont want to get stuck somewhere and I have heard that a starter can
> develop a 'flat spot' from sitting too long.

I think what you may be remembering is an old saying about tires not
starters. It wouldn't hurt to remove the starter and disassemble, clean
and lube the bushings. The lubrication will dry out given enough time.
Other than that, electrical connections are the most likely thing to
deteriorate with time.

-jim

> My question is - is this actually a possibility (a starter developing
> a flat spot), or a misnomer, or an old garage hoax....???
Steve B. - 02 Jul 2007 13:14 GMT
>My question is - is this actually a possibility (a starter developing
>a flat spot), or a misnomer, or an old garage hoax....???

I normally hear the term flat spots used more for tires, but a starter
can develop a dead spot.  

Two common things I see that could be happening to you (outside of a
battery issue)

The starter solenoid could be failing or the circuit feeding it.

The starter itself can get a dead spot or have worn brushes.  You have
carbon brushes in the body of the starter that are held against the
commutator by spring pressure.  Here is a picture of a commutator
http://www.btinternet.com/~roland.czerny/commutator.jpg  Each of those
pieces of copper is an individual circuit.  If one fails the starter
will be a bit weaker but you would probably never notice when it was
spinning.  If one fails and the starter happens to stop so that the
brush is against only that one circuit then the starter won't spin
next time you crank.    I don't think this is your problem though as
you normally have to do something to cause the starter to move a
little before it will work again.

In this case I would do two things.  First go through and clean all
the connections up good including those on the neutral safety switch
if it is an automatic.  Second get a cheap digital volt meter so you
can check the voltage next time it doesn't start.

             Steve B.
BSAKing@hotmail.com - 02 Jul 2007 13:58 GMT
> On Mon, 02 Jul 2007 04:06:09 -0700, "BSAK...@hotmail.com"
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>               Steve B.

Yes - thanks - your replies make perfect sense. As I say - I usually
have battery issues, but it is not a new car and I expect other things
(namely connections, solenoids, etc) to deteriorate with time.

Thanks for the clarification about the starter dead spot... versus....
flat spot.

Could you direct me to the neutral safety switch location you mention
so I can clean it up properly as well?

regards.
Steve - 02 Jul 2007 19:12 GMT
> Could you direct me to the neutral safety switch location you mention
> so I can clean it up properly as well?

Not without a make and model more specific than "an older car." :-)
BSAKing@hotmail.com - 02 Jul 2007 19:51 GMT
> > Could you direct me to the neutral safety switch location you mention
> > so I can clean it up properly as well?
>
> Not without a make and model more specific than "an older car." :-)

Obviously! My apologies - I got confused between forums.

The patient in question is a 1976 corvette stingray L-48 350 (ex)
smogger with auto. I suspect it may be enclosed in the center console,
but am not sure and have no idea what to look for.

regards.
boxing@sasktel.net - 03 Jul 2007 05:42 GMT
it might be the ignition switch or any of the other things. not all
the way in park, the solenoid, a dead spot on the starter, a loose
battery connection.
Proctologically Violated©® - 02 Jul 2007 14:43 GMT
Trickle charge the battery, as well.
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>I have an older car that sits a lot of the winter and I just fire it
> up occasionally, then drive it in the summer.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> My question is - is this actually a possibility (a starter developing
> a flat spot), or a misnomer, or an old garage hoax....???
Steve - 02 Jul 2007 19:11 GMT
> I have an older car that sits a lot of the winter and I just fire it
> up occasionally, then drive it in the summer.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> happen numerous times and it has always been the battery - one cell
> goes bad and those are exactly the symptoms.

But a battery with a bad cell won't (usually) recover like that.

> I took the battery in and it checked out ok, but I suspect it still
> may die again. I go thru one every 2-3 years sitting this way. It's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Now - I am cleaning up connections, etc just as a precaution since I
> dont want to get stuck somewhere

That's MY number one guess- bad connection at a battery terminal.

 and I have heard that a starter can
> develop a 'flat spot' from sitting too long.
>
> My question is - is this actually a possibility (a starter developing
> a flat spot), or a misnomer, or an old garage hoax....???

A starter can have one winding on the armature burn out so that if one
of the brushes happens to land on EXACTLY that one element in the
commutator, the starter won't run. But it has nothing to do with
sitting. And also, MOST starters from the last 50 years or so have 4
brushes so that it would take TWO dead windings at EXACTLY the right
orientation relative to each other to make the starter completely
inoperative. One dead winding would only make it weak in that particular
spot. Short story- I don't think you have a starter problem.
 
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