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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2007

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3rd transmission for Explorer, what's the deal?

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runderwo@mail.win.org - 25 Jul 2007 21:13 GMT
My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the torque
convertor and transmission failed. They were replaced under warranty
after much harassment of the dealer.  Now, the flex plate cracked and
ate the torque converter and transmission.  Estimates from two
different establishments were 2K for replacement.  I believe the flex
plate cracking is the result of the dealer not paying attention to
detail when installing the new transmission.  The truck is now 1 year
out of warranty.  Does he have a snowball's chance in hell of getting
the dealer to cough up the repair?  What would you guys do?
hls - 26 Jul 2007 00:02 GMT
<runderwo@mail.win.org> wrote in message   Does he have a snowball's chance
in hell of getting
> the dealer to cough up the repair?  What would you guys do?

Yeah, about that.. You can try to see if Turd Motor Company will goodwill
this.
Sometimes they do. They seem to be better about it than GM, but not
worldclass.
Marsh Monster - 26 Jul 2007 03:57 GMT
=======
=======
> Yeah, about that.. You can try to see if Turd Motor Company will goodwill
> this.
> Sometimes they do. They seem to be better about it than GM, but not
> worldclass.

========
========
thts fk'n funny....

i don't care who you are

THAT WAS FK'N FUNNY!!!!!!!

rotflmao

~:~
marshmonster
~:~
C. E. White - 26 Jul 2007 12:29 GMT
> My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the torque
> convertor and transmission failed. They were replaced under warranty
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> getting
> the dealer to cough up the repair?  What would you guys do?

How does a cracked flex plate eat the transmission and torque
converter?

Ed
Steve - 26 Jul 2007 18:12 GMT
>>My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the torque
>>convertor and transmission failed. They were replaced under warranty
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Ed

Sarcastic answer: "very effectively." :-)

Real answer: it lets the TC "wobble" which chews up the input shaft and
bushings on the transmission, and (when it gets bad enough) chews up the
stator and turbine inside the convertor.
Scott Dorsey - 26 Jul 2007 18:33 GMT
>> How does a cracked flex plate eat the transmission and torque
>> converter?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>bushings on the transmission, and (when it gets bad enough) chews up the
>stator and turbine inside the convertor.

Right, but when this is happening it is VERY obvious that something is
horribly wrong.

Drivers who continue driving the vehicle when it clear that something
is horribly wrong with it, who do not check the vehicle when it is
clear that something is not right, are as responsible for the failure
as the damaged plate.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

C. E. White - 27 Jul 2007 13:33 GMT
>>>My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the
>>>torque
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> and bushings on the transmission, and (when it gets bad enough)
> chews up the stator and turbine inside the converter.

It seems to me that the cracked flex plate was a symptom, rather than
the cause. I'd guess the transmission was improperly aligned when
replaced.

Ed
Steve - 27 Jul 2007 16:03 GMT
>>>>My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the
>>>>torque
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Ed

OK... but how the hell do you DO that? I guess the block or transmission
case could actually have a casting face out of alignment, but I can't
imagine an error that gross getting past QC at Kia, let alone Ford.
N8N - 27 Jul 2007 20:28 GMT
> >>><runde...@mail.win.org> wrote in message
> >>>news:1185394400.539999.84420@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> case could actually have a casting face out of alignment, but I can't
> imagine an error that gross getting past QC at Kia, let alone Ford.

Another possiblity would be excessive crankshaft endplay.  Got bit by
that one on an old Dart, and didn't figure it out until it ate the
second trans (I paid someone to replace it the first time.)  This was
a supposedly "fresh rebuilt" engine, well guess what, wasn't rebuilt
too well now was it!

nate
Marsh Monster - 28 Jul 2007 04:16 GMT
======
======
On Jul 27, 10:03?am, Steve <n...@spam.thanks> asks and
comments about misalignment on install with:

OK... but how the hell do you DO that?

I guess the block or transmission
case could actually have a casting face out of alignment, but I can't
imagine an error that gross getting past QC at Kia, let alone Ford.-
Hide quoted text -

========
========

You need to extract the information given in the original
post, use knowledge based on hands on experience, and
formulate a good, solid, found, GUESS as to what "most
likely" has occured with this customers vehicle.

The truck was 8...EIGHT......8.......years OLD when his
brother bought it 3 years ago.

The "DEALER"........"replaced" it under warranty 2 times.

The transmission is "ONE" year out of warranty.

The customer has owned the vehicle 3 years.

The first TWO...2...units were warrantied 2 years ago.

The the owner had the truck for ONE...year, and it was
under warranty, now he's had it for 3 years, and it's ONE
year out of warranty.

HYPOTHESIS....BASED ON THE INFO...AND ......
hands on experience....

The truck was purchased from a non-OEM used car lot.
The OP never stated the EIGHT year old truck came from
an OEM Dealership.

Used car lots hardly ever GIVE extended warranties,
and most don't even offer them on a contract basis,
there in lies the reason for only a one year warranty.
And.....he's fk'n lucky they give him that.  My GUESS
would be that he still owed a chunk of change at a
"Buy Here Pay Here" used car lot.....or they wouldn't
have fixed it the first 2 times.

Used car lots tend to take the trannies out themselves to
save money, then install a USED unit or get some low-ball
shade tree butcher shop to "overhaul" (lmao) it for around
$300 or $400.  (patch it)

The entire transmission job was "most likely" performed
by inferior techs......which has led to the current failure.

AND YES......it IS entirely possible, and MOST probable
that the current failure is directly the result of not pay'n
attention to detail on the INSTALLATION...of the unit.

....................

now......to answer YOUR QUESTION........

The transmission can be misaligned on reinstall by several
factors, namely not checking that the flywheel spacer is in
good shape.  They are WELL KNOWN for cracking and going
bad.  The convertor hub on the exterior, front, uses this to
center the convertor and keep it from wobbl'n about.
(tearing up front seals and stator bushings, and pumps)
 The convertor pilot is intended to fit snug into the spacer...
absolute minimal clearance.

 The transmission can be misaligned if the yard bird that yanked
it out....yanked out the alignment pins in the back of the engine
along
with the tranny.
Because they were cankered into the aluminum case, and when
the OTHER unit was reinstalled, the alignment pins were gone,
he didn't notice it because he didn't know what to look for, and
after all......he's a yardbird....and he's gonna be at another
used car lot in 6 months working under a lean to.......so why
does he care.

The crankshaft may have longitudinal play in it.
(was kinds wonder'n why none of thunk'd of that one)
This is gonna act like a comode plunger on the front pump
section of the tranny you know.

Someone "may have" installed a rear main seal in this thing
AFTER the yard bird did his thing........and the crank bolts]
may have been overtightened.......which WILL cause the flywheel
to crack......Not to mention the fact that if they used a freek'n
prybar to pop it off the crank cuz it wuz stuck on there from
the years of baked on enamel.....i mean oil......they cudda
wopped that sucker make'n it out of balance.  Again, a yard bird
reinstall failure.
Keep in mind......the OP ......NOT ONCE...stated that ANY
repairs have been made to the vehicle since the first tranny
episode.......and he has YET to do a repost to address ANY
of you guys questions and concerns.  so fk him

any whooo.......

I have SEVERAL more ways to misalign a transmission......

but my fangers get'n a bit tired, and i'm kinda antsy to gits
on over to the Dodge Truck NG and see if I've started any
fights since yesterday......

~~
oo
L
O

~:~
MarshMonster
~sips his crownroyal.....and wonders how many of you know
there are TWO bolts on that unit that help align it to the case~
~:~
===========
===========
julia.albath@gmail.com - 20 Aug 2007 17:59 GMT
Hey guys,

Thanks for all the replies.

He bought it from a Ford used car lot.  The warranty was through a
third party warranty company.  He had to fight tooth and nail to get
them to replace the 1st dead transmission, they kept telling him the
transmission failure is due to abusive driving habits (of course,
without any proof that he drove abusively).

He later told me it started making a "heinous" noise the same day the
transmission failed.  That detail was omitted at first.

He decided not to press the issue with Ford and traded it in for a new
truck.

So, it sounds like even if installation error caused the problem, his
mistake was to keep driving it when a "heinous" noise was present.
That is likely what turned a duff flex plate, from whatever cause,
into a catastrophe.

So the catastrophe was preventable if he had simply stopped driving
and had it towed.

One way to really make things difficult on yourself is to compound
others' mistakes and your own bad luck with willful ignorance of the
obvious...
Ashton Crusher - 28 Jul 2007 08:16 GMT
>>>>>My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the
>>>>>torque
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>case could actually have a casting face out of alignment, but I can't
>imagine an error that gross getting past QC at Kia, let alone Ford.

I"m not sure about the 96 models but in the earlier models the pilot
bearing in the end of the crank (that the transmission main shaft
pilots into) is machined at the factory on the vehicle to ensure
proper alignment.  If the pilot bearing gets worn out and is replaced
in the field it can be difficult to get it "centered" with the
accuracy the factory is able to.  That can also lead to premature
failures of the transmission from what I have read in the past.
Marsh Monster - 28 Jul 2007 17:16 GMT
=====
=====

> I"m not sure about the 96 models but in the earlier models the pilot
> bearing in the end of the crank (that the transmission main shaft
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -
========
========

I agree.................you are not sure.

Let me assure you.........Ford AUTOMATIC.....trannies do NOT.....
have pilot bearings!!   yet....to date...as of now....none..not any..
not one.....ever....never.

you can now feel assured that your not sure what's sure to be
a sure thing........of that.....I asure you.

~:~
MarshMonster
~takes a toke..........mmmmmmm.......sure is good~
~:~
Ashton Crusher - 29 Jul 2007 00:22 GMT
>=====
>=====
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>~takes a toke..........mmmmmmm.......sure is good~
>~:~

LOL, you are right, I had a brain fart.  But the info as to the
alignment of some bearing being done at the factory is something I
read that was tied to these things giving problems later in the field
during rebuilds if the bearing had to be replaced.  I guess it could
have been for manual transmissions.
Marsh Monster - 28 Jul 2007 03:21 GMT
=========
=========

On Jul 26, 12:12?pm, Steve <n...@spam.thanks> anwers the quiz
question.......

How does a cracked flex plate eat the transmission and torque
converter?

<<with this reply>>

Sarcastic answer: "very effectively." :-)

Real answer: it lets the TC "wobble" which chews up the input shaft
and
bushings on the transmission, and (when it gets bad enough) chews up
the
stator and turbine inside the convertor.-

===========
===========

Correct Answer :
    The vibration causes the stators in the pump AND convertor to
go out.......fubar'n the rest of the tranny by dump'n debris
throughout
the system, AND....most likely causing a front pump seal failure
BEFORE
it gits that far along.

fact,not fiction

~:~
MarshMonster
~sips his mushroom tea....takes a toke......mmmmmmm......
good stuff~
~:~
Steve - 30 Jul 2007 16:32 GMT
> Correct Answer :
>      The vibration causes the stators in the pump AND convertor to
> go out.......

Gerotor pumps got stators? That's a new one on me (and the guys who
designed them....)

;-)
John S. - 26 Jul 2007 13:00 GMT
On Jul 25, 4:13 pm, "runde...@mail.win.org" <runde...@mail.win.org>
wrote:
> My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the torque
> convertor and transmission failed. They were replaced under warranty
> after much harassment of the dealer.  Now, the flex plate cracked and
> ate the torque converter and transmission.  

Sounds like the truck was run pretty hard for the past 12 years for
that much repeat damage to occur.

> Estimates from two
> different establishments were 2K for replacement.  

You have 3 choices:  1.  Pay up and get it repaired.  2.  Buy a
boneyard gearbox.  3.  Junk what is likely an otherwise wornout truck.

> I believe the flex
> plate cracking is the result of the dealer not paying attention to
> detail when installing the new transmission.

You are kidding right???  Which specific "details" was the mechanic
(not the dealer) not paying attention to that would cause that damage
to occur.  I think we have someone looking for a free ride.

>  The truck is now 1 year
> out of warranty.

The explanation of what has occured under that contract is that the
truck is out of warranty, the dealer is no longer responsible and the
owner is SOL.

> Does he have a snowball's chance in hell of getting
> the dealer to cough up the repair?  What would you guys do?

If I liked the truck I would pay up for the damage I am likely
responsible for.
Scott Dorsey - 26 Jul 2007 15:28 GMT
>My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the torque
>convertor and transmission failed. They were replaced under warranty
>after much harassment of the dealer.

What failed about them?  

>  Now, the flex plate cracked and
>ate the torque converter and transmission.  Estimates from two
>different establishments were 2K for replacement.  

That seems fair.

>I believe the flex
>plate cracking is the result of the dealer not paying attention to
>detail when installing the new transmission.  The truck is now 1 year
>out of warranty.  Does he have a snowball's chance in hell of getting
>the dealer to cough up the repair?  What would you guys do?

I seriously doubt poor installation contributed to the damage of the
flex plate, especially if it's been two years since the job.  I also
wonder how the damaged flex plate could "eat" the torque converter and
transmission.  Was he driving it for a long time with the flex plate
broken, and if so why?

How many miles are on this thing?
--scott

Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Steve - 26 Jul 2007 18:18 GMT
> I seriously doubt poor installation contributed to the damage of the
> flex plate, especially if it's been two years since the job.  I also
> wonder how the damaged flex plate could "eat" the torque converter and
> transmission.  Was he driving it for a long time with the flex plate
> broken, and if so why?

I agree- it likely wasn't installation error, because any mistake in
assembly of the engine to transmission would cause an IMMEDIATE failure.
A broken flex plate wouldn't cause an immediate failure, but the driver
would NOTICE it, or the flex plate itself would probably fail completely
before damaging anything else.

One thing I have had happen though is a rebuilt torque convertor with
the output shaft ever-so-slightly off-center (which is very possible,
given that they rebuild torque convertors by cutting them open and then
welding the halves back together). Over the course of about 50,000
miles, the slight wobble chewed up the input bushing on the
transmission. The eventual failure was that the input bushing spun in
the pump housing. No actual damage to the convertor, though, and the
shop might never have suspected the root cause and measured the runout
on the convertor shaft if it wasn't such an oddball failure mode- input
bushings wear out, but the rarely go so far as to spin in the case!
Marsh Monster - 28 Jul 2007 03:29 GMT
========
========
Scott Dorsey contributed to the thread with:
.
I seriously doubt poor installation contributed to the damage of the
flex plate, especially if it's been two years since the job. ?I also
wonder how the damaged flex plate could "eat" the torque converter
and
transmission. ?Was he driving it for a long time with the flex plate
broken, and if so why?
==========
==========
On Jul 26, 12:18 pm, Steve <n...@spam.thanks> replied:
.
I agree- it likely wasn't installation error, because any mistake in
assembly of the engine to transmission would cause an IMMEDIATE
failure.
A broken flex plate wouldn't cause an immediate failure, but the
driver
would NOTICE it, or the flex plate itself would probably fail
completely
before damaging anything else.

One thing I have had happen though is a rebuilt torque convertor with
the output shaft ever-so-slightly off-center (which is very possible,
given that they rebuild torque convertors by cutting them open and
then
welding the halves back together). Over the course of about 50,000
miles, the slight wobble chewed up the input bushing on the
transmission. The eventual failure was that the input bushing spun in
the pump housing. No actual damage to the convertor, though, and the
shop might never have suspected the root cause and measured the
runout
on the convertor shaft if it wasn't such an oddball failure mode-
input
bushings wear out, but the rarely go so far as to spin in the case!

===========
===========

I disagree........
It VERY likely "could" have been installer error.

has anyone bothered asking this dude .......
"has the rear main seal been replaced?"

No?......no one asked?

ok

hold on.......i'll scroll up to the office and git the customer,
ask a few impertant questuns........

if'n ya'll don't mind that the shop idiot take a stab at it
that is...

~:~
MarshMonster
~sips his crownroyal....wipes the cow dung off'n a shroom and
drops it in the glass..........mmmmmmm.......good stuff~
~:~
Marsh Monster - 28 Jul 2007 03:45 GMT
On Jul 25, 3:13?pm, "runde...@mail.win.org" <runde...@mail.win.org>
wrote:
> My brother bought a 96 Explorer 3 years ago.  2 years ago the torque
> convertor and transmission failed. They were replaced under warranty
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> out of warranty.  Does he have a snowball's chance in hell of getting
> the dealer to cough up the repair?  What would you guys do?

=========
=========

no chance in hell.

i would spit, cuss, stomp my feet, chunk a wrench,
slap my wife, and kick the car door in..........

then.....i would git over it and find me a GOOD
tranny tech if i wanted to fix it.

as a side note......
I agree with you that attention to detail was "most likely"
the cause of the whole damd mess.

~:~
MarshMonster
~takes a toke...........................blows a smoke ring......
mmmmmm........good stuff~
~:~
 
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