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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2007Question About Slotting The Struts In Order to Get Wheels Aligned
The service center tells me that the wheel alignment on my 95 Cutlass cannot be accomplished without slotting the struts. This is the first time I've heard of this practice. Is it an accepatable method for getting a car back in alignment? From what I was told, it is somewhat common. I was going to go ahead and have this done, but I've begun wondering if a car that requires its struts to be slotted in order to acheive alignment may have bigger issues than just an alignment issue. Any information or recommendations would be appreciated. > The service center tells me that the wheel alignment on my 95 Cutlass > cannot be accomplished without slotting the struts. This is the first [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Any information or recommendations would be appreciated. My '01 Cavalier needed the strut slots elongated to get the thing into line. The technician says that they often don't have enough slot length. He also said, IIRC, that the aftermarket struts have longer slots so that they can be aligned properly. Sounds to me like GM struts don't have long enough slots, so they just align them as close as the slot allows and kick them out of the factory. Dan Dan_Thomas_nospam@yahoo.com wrote in article <1185842873.344934.120290@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>... > > The service center tells me that the wheel alignment on my 95 Cutlass > > cannot be accomplished without slotting the struts. This is the first [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > they just align them as close as the slot allows and kick them out of > the factory. The engineers cannot foresee exactly what will happen to their designs once they hit the streets. Take the Chevy Vega...... The front end alignment adjustments were quite adequate on new Vegas. One-or-two-year-old, low-mileage Vegas could be aligned quickly with the eccentrics on the lower control arms. After they had been on the street for a while, however, the forward frame rails (stamped metal) twisted, and the whole front end sagged - to the point that you could NOT get enough camber adjustment from them. The twisted rails brought the upper control arm mounts inward - creating excess negative camber. The camber adjjustment was on the lower control arm, and at max, it could not compensate for the dis-located upper control arm mounts. We had to resort to pulling (twisting) the frame rail back into position - thus moving the upper control arm mount back outwards - in order to get enough adjustment to set the camber within specification. I did so mnany that I had developed a block and chaimn that I would run up through the shock tower and tie down to the rack. I would then jack the frame rail and watch it twist back into position. Some customers paid extra for me to fashion up a cross brace that went from tower-to-tower in the engine compartment. I have no doubt that your '01 Cavalier and the OP's '95 Cutlass are suffering from similar, unpredictable chassis movement. Some would say that twisting is only to be expected from stamped metal unibody setups - a statement with which I would find it difficult to disagree - but, most of the time engineering makes some sort of allowances for this. In some cases, such as the Vega, not enough allowance is made. ======= ======= . The service center tells me that the wheel alignment on my 95 Cutlass cannot be accomplished without slotting the struts. This is the first time I've heard of this practice. . Is it an accepatable method for getting a car back in alignment? <<snip dribble>>. ======== ======== Yes ~:~ MarshMonster ~takes a toke......man.....some of these cerification questions are easy as sht~ ~:~ Thanks for the answers. I was told all four struts need to be slotted, so I was concerned the car's frame should be worked on and not the struts. If it still have the original struts in it, then I would replace them first. Unless the car ahs really low miles, or something. >The service center tells me that the wheel alignment on my 95 Cutlass >cannot be accomplished without slotting the struts. This is the first [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Any information or recommendations would be appreciated. This only has an effect on camber -- by far the least important of the wheel alignment angles. If the original struts were not slotted and camber is radically wrong then something is bent. Don www.donsautomotive.com I am going to have a shop that specializes in frames/alignments give me an opinion on the condition of the frame, and if necessary, slot the struts. They have not seen the car yet, but the person I spoke with said slotting the struts is sometimes necesary and not indicative of a bent undercarriage. I can't see an automaker selling a car with parts that do not permit the cars wheels to be aligned. To me the fact that slotting is required to achieve alignment would mean that something is bent/ damaged, causing the suspension to be out of calibration range. But I don't fix cars everyday, so that may not be the case in real life. . >I am going to have a shop that specializes in frames/alignments give >me an opinion on the condition of the frame, and if necessary, slot [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >damaged, causing the suspension to be out of calibration range. But I >don't fix cars everyday, so that may not be the case in real life. Everything is bent. Life is like that. Some things are bent a tiny little bit and you don't have to worry about them. Some things are bent a whole lot and are a major problem. The alignment guy's job is to know the difference between the two. Your local tire place has a kid who can put the car up on the machine, look at the numbers the computer spits out, and make the adjustments the computer tells him to make. He probably doesn't have a good idea of what he is doing or why, he just does what the computer tells him to do. He may even overlook problems that make the vehicle impossible to align, because the computer doesn't know and nobody ever told him to look for them. Unfortunately, there are few expert alignment guys out there these days. But if you have a shop that can do it, take it there. If they don't find anything wrong, well, then you have made a good investment because now you know there's nothing wrong. --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > I am going to have a shop that specializes in frames/alignments give > me an opinion on the condition of the frame, and if necessary, slot [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > . ======== ======== If the "AutoMaker" slots the struts..... then..... EVERY SINGLE ONE OF EM ......has to be aligned before they're shipped. Think about it. Then, when yer through crunchin the numbers on pay'n folks what you have to pay folks to do what folks would have to do cuz computers couldn't do it and how many folks it would take to do the job that a computer couldn't do, then.....go read Scott Dorseys reply to your post and think about how sh.t is made to bend,warp,sag, and droop after awhile. (man.....can i make a runon sentence or what) :) Guess i cudda jest said that the automakers save BILLIONS because they don't have to align them at the factory. anywhoooooo....... Read what Scott wrote very carefully cuz he hit the nail on the head........ and my "guess" would be that the spings, isolators and the bearing plates have wear causing the vehical to sag, which is causing the camber to be way off. which brings to mind another thing, if you have time, read the scathing i'm fixin to go give DON..... who told you in open forum for all the world to see for eternity...... (i do not quote....i copy and paster!!) This only has an effect on camber -- by far the least important of the wheel alignment angles. <end copy and paste of BAD information> In closing, SOMEONE.....should have mentioned that aftermarket replacement struts............ usually have the slots in em. :) ~:~ MarshMonster ~sips his mushroom tea........wonders if he shudda mentioned camber cams.........~ ~:~ ======== ======== <<concerning slotting struts to perform alighnments>> . This only has an effect on camber -- by far the least important of the wheel alignment angles. ?If the original struts were not slotted and camber is radically wrong then something is bent. ====== ====== So if ones pulling real bad to the left...... . you adjust the toe......?? . when that don't work...you look for something bent?? . If a vehicle comes in with radical (i love that word)... tire wear due to camber...and i'm sure YOU can differentiate camber wear from toe wear or wear due to worn struts or bad shocks or .......fk it.....anywhooo..... IF it came in with radical camber wear on the tires... you autmatically look for something bent?? . . You're incorrect in advising this customer that camber is least important alignment angle. You are also incorrect in advising this customer that something IS bent if the camber is RADICALLY wrong. You are NO alignment technician if you actually adhere to this train of thought. NOTHING......has to be bent for camber to radically off. (wrong..whatever) ever.....watched the alignment angle WHILE..... adjusting torsion bars??? in closeing...i ask...... please read slow cuz i don't type fast.. and read what i wrote, not what you think i wrote...cuz i took the time to read what you wrote........before i fell outta my chair> ~~ oo L O ~:~ MarshMonster ~takes a toke.......mmmmm......now.......that's some gooooood stuff~ ~:~ >======== >======== [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the > wheel alignment angles. ?If the original struts were not slotted Please observe stipulation "IF THE ORIGINAL STRUTS WERE NOT SLOTTED....." > and camber is radically wrong then something is bent. Correct. If the factory saw no need to provide camber adjustment and now it is way off, something is bent. Or, I should have included, ride height or other modifications have been made to the suspension. >====== >====== > >So if ones pulling real bad to the left...... >. >you adjust the toe......?? Rear toe or caster. Rotate or substitute tires to check for tire pull. >. >when that don't work...you look for something [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to worn struts or bad shocks or .......fk it.....anywhooo..... >IF it came in with radical camber wear on the tires... You won't see camber wear very often these days. >you autmatically look for something bent?? >. >. >You're incorrect in advising this customer that >camber is least important alignment angle. Toe error destroys tires rapidly -- as little as 1/8" error makes a difference in tire wear. Toe error also causes very disconcerting handlindg as the tires constantly battle deach other for dominance while pointed in didfferent directions. That's why ALL vehicles have adjustable toe on the front suspension, also on the rear unless solid axle. Caster causes pull. Some vehicles have caster adjustments, some do not. I have seen many a vehicle with significant camber error and no tire wear or apparent tire problems. It has been tradionally taught that camber causes pull towards the side with a more positive setting and that camber error can wear tires on one side. This was far more the case with bias ply tires than with today's radials. I have seen as much as a 4* camber error with no apparent problems. In fact I owned a vehicle with that condition (due to a collision) for quite some time. I kept looking for "camber wear" or expecting pull and it just didn't happen because caster and toe were good. Many vehicles have no camber adjustment provided at the factory. >You are also incorrect in advising this customer >that something IS bent if the camber is RADICALLY >wrong. If the camber is so far off as to require slotting struts where the factory did not provide camber adjustment something got bent. OK...or the suspension has been altered. Don www.donsautomotive.com >You are NO alignment technician if you actually >adhere to this train of thought. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >ever.....watched the alignment angle WHILE..... >adjusting torsion bars??? I certainly would agree that a radical deviation from stock ride height will affect camber. >in closeing...i ask...... >please read slow cuz i don't type fast.. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >gooooood stuff~ >~:~ ===== ===== > On Wed, 01 Aug 2007 17:15:55 -0700, Marsh Monster > [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > > - Show quoted text - I====== ====== Don.......let me start by saying........ that i jest LOVE that link you add to every post, that gits us to yer shop. with that said........ I'm a brake and frontend tech..... I made $1783.47.....this week..... I work for someone else........... and........ that's all i gotta say about that. ~~ oo L O ~:~ MarshMonster ~sips his crownroyal.....sure is glad he quit tranny work and went back to brake and frontend~ ~:~ Marsh Monster <MarshMonster2624@aol.com> wrote in article <1186187428.167046.316520@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com>... > ===== > ===== [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and........ > that's all i gotta say about that. Sounds like another "Set the toe, and let it go!" FEA tech....... ======== ========= marsh spat out: I'm a brake and frontend tech..... I made $1783.47.....this week..... I work for someone else........... . and........ that's all i gotta say about that. ======== ======== Symbol for his name...aka a.s terd Rick........ nos...@this.addy.com> wrote: . Sounds like another "Set the toe, and let it go!" FEA tech....... ======= ======= yep.......that was the point I was try'n to make allritey........ that i did 100 toe adjustments ina 40 hour week. MAN !!!.......I NEED A RAISE........... i'm average'n 2 1/2 alignments an HOUR!!! I'MA FK'N WORK'N MACHINE !!!!! you make me laugh......Assterdrick. however, i must say, great insight into your interperative comprehension skills. yep....definately a world class thunker there boys. ~:~ MARSHMONSTER ~scrapes a scab off his knuckles.....drops it in the fresh pot of boiling shrooms.......mmmm.......... flavuh~ ~:~ > ===== > ===== [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] > and........ > that's all i gotta say about that. I'm sorry, but was that supposed to be impressive? It kinda came off as childish. Toyota MDT in MO ==== ==== marsh spat out: I'm a brake and frontend tech..... I made $1783.47.....this week..... I work for someone else........... . and........ that's all i gotta say about that. ========= ========= Comboverfish spat back: ' I'm sorry, but was that supposed to be impressive? ?It kinda came off as childish. ========== ========== I'm sorry, but was that supposed to be impressive? It kinda came off as an inability to comprehend statements given in context. ~:~ MarshMonster ~takes a toke.......mmmmmmmm...........good stuff~ ~:~ Don <don@NO-SPAMdonsautomotive.com> wrote in article <i810b3dhs4gs4v1v57cmnn9feotm6v6vc1@4ax.com>... > >The service center tells me that the wheel alignment on my 95 Cutlass > >cannot be accomplished without slotting the struts. This is the first [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > wheel alignment angles. If the original struts were not slotted and > camber is radically wrong then something is bent. Toe is a tire wear angle Caster is a directional-control angle Camber is both a tire-wear AND directional-control angle. Camber is LEAST important?????? >Don <don@NO-SPAMdonsautomotive.com> wrote in article ><i810b3dhs4gs4v1v57cmnn9feotm6v6vc1@4ax.com>... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Toe is a tire wear angle And it is critical. If wrong, the tires are each trying to go in a different direction with disasterous results to stability and tire wear. That is why it is ALWAYS adjustable except on a solid rear axle. FWIW what some people would think is camber wear -- tire tread worn on one side is usually actually toe wear. What happens is the tire is effectively dragged sideways some percentage of its forward traveled distance and this pulls the sidewalls so the tire wears unevenly side-to-side. Obsolete text books which were written for bias ply tires still call this camber wear and show pictures of feathered tires for toe wear. You rarely see feathered (I am not referring to cupping) tires these days. >Caster is a directional-control angle >Camber is both a tire-wear AND directional-control angle. Correct. And it made a significant difference with bias ply tires. The effects are very subtle with radial tires. The flexible sidewalls of radial tires absorb the camber error and the tread patch is hardly affected. I have seen many a vehicle where the suspension was not fully repaired after a curb impact. If only the camber is off spec it's about impossible to tell. Don www.donsautomotive.com >Camber is LEAST important?????? |
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