Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2007
how are engine blocks made?
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lethaldriver@gmail.com - 31 Jul 2007 14:52 GMT What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and crankcases? How are these parts made?
How about pistons, crankshaft, con rods?
In the past (and maybe even up to now for a very few people), it seems that some people are able to make their own engines and so they have the choice to put as much cylinders as they want.
Just interested and curious.
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 31 Jul 2007 15:09 GMT On Jul 31, 8:52 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote:
> What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and > crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Just interested and curious. It is called "casting". Molten metal is poured into molds. A century ago there were many small founderies who would do custom casting for anyone with patterns. Then it became a very specialized business and the small custom casting shops almost died out. I understand new technology is making for at least a limited return of the small, custom foundery.
Also a century ago many small shops had their own internal foundery. There are still amateur machinists who do their own foundery work. For more about home founderies, visit and inquire at rec.crafts.metalworking, another usenet/google group.
frederick - 01 Aug 2007 04:51 GMT > On Jul 31, 8:52 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote: >> What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > For more about home founderies, visit and inquire at > rec.crafts.metalworking, another usenet/google group. Heres a small shop in New Zealand that has made "new" Ferrari Monza Engines: http://autorestorations.co.nz/our-work/Classic-cars/Car-Parts/Ferrari-Monza-Engi nes.htm IIRC, those two engines were built from one engine with a shattered block, that (alloy) block repaired, another cast, including casting and making new heads etc. Their clients tend to be wealthy <g> (I believe those engines cost well into six figures - each) Rare cars are shipped from all over the world for full restoration.
Scott Dorsey - 31 Jul 2007 15:40 GMT >What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and >crankcases? It is a mixture of casting and machining.
>How are these parts made? Mostly by sand casting. A form made out of metal, plastic, or even wood is covered with sand, then the form is removed and molten metal poured into place. This gives you a piece of metal with a rough outline of the final part.
Then the higher precision stuff is done to drill, mill, and bore out the various parts that need to be done to very precise dimensions.
After the machining operations are completed, the metal is reheated and then cooled down in a controlled way to harden it.
>How about pistons, crankshaft, con rods? Some more precise pieces are made either by machining them directly out of metal billets, or by lost wax casting. But almost everything you see will have been sandcast and then machined to final dimensions.
>In the past (and maybe even up to now for a very few people), it seems >that some people are able to make their own engines and so they have >the choice to put as much cylinders as they want. Sure, you can do this in a well-equipped home shop. You'd need a furnace, an engine lathe, and a vertical mill. I know folks who make small steam engines and model airplane engines using small bench lathes and tabletop mills.
Now, here is a question for everyone else... in the early 1970s, I was given a book which MIGHT have been published by Popular Science or by Chiltons, which consisted of a number of short articles. One of them was on overboring the hemi engine and was called the "Hyper Hemi" and at least one of them was either written by Don Garlits or about some engine that Garlits built. But what was MOST interesting was that it had a whole article with photos showing the process of rebuilding an engine... all of the machining operations and then some furnace work. What the hell WAS this book and where can I get a copy of it? --scott
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Pete C. - 31 Jul 2007 16:28 GMT > >What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and > >crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > of metal billets, or by lost wax casting. But almost everything you > see will have been sandcast and then machined to final dimensions. Don't forget the many forged parts in this category.
> >In the past (and maybe even up to now for a very few people), it seems > >that some people are able to make their own engines and so they have [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > -- > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." John S. - 31 Jul 2007 16:15 GMT On Jul 31, 9:52 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote:
> What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and > crankcases? > How are these parts made? > > How about pistons, crankshaft, con rods? Casting, forging, drilling, milling, heat treating are the basic proceesses used.
> In the past (and maybe even up to now for a very few people), it seems > that some people are able to make their own engines and so they have > the choice to put as much cylinders as they want. It would be possible to construct a complete engine from raw materials, but it would be prohibitively expensive. It is not unusual for a smaller car manufacturer to purchase entire components such as an engine or transmission from another company. For example Volvo has at times purchased entire engines from other car makers while also building engines directly.
> Just interested and curious. lethaldriver@gmail.com - 31 Jul 2007 16:38 GMT Perhaps anyone here knows someone who does manufacture custom made engine blocks/crankcases?
Very interesting stuff but I'm not sure if it's doable for a person with my knowledge. I guess, I'm better off leaving those tasks to the pros.
Are there special machines which can build engine blocks from billets? Can you refer me to any website which has information related to building an engine block?
It's cool that some people can combine two engine blocks into one. like two straight fours to make one V8 block just like what PowerTec did with two Hayabusa engines.
> On Jul 31, 9:52 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > Just interested and curious. Steve - 31 Jul 2007 18:16 GMT > Are there special machines which can build engine blocks from billets? > Can you refer me to any website which has information related to > building an engine block? Engine blocks aren't usually things that are practical to make from billet material because a) its difficult (or impossible) to create the cooling passages, and b) its a waste of material and time.
Scott Dorsey - 31 Jul 2007 18:42 GMT >Perhaps anyone here knows someone who does manufacture custom made >engine blocks/crankcases? Sure, we have a bunch of shops in this area which mostly cater to the NASCAR guys.
>Very interesting stuff but I'm not sure if it's doable for a person >with my knowledge. >I guess, I'm better off leaving those tasks to the pros. So go to your local community college and look for an introductory machine shop class. Learn how to operate a mill and a lathe. It's a very useful and handy skill to have, even if you never build a complete engine yourself.
>Are there special machines which can build engine blocks from billets? Lathes, drill presses, boring machines, and mills will do this. There are computer controlled machining systems as well, but those are not only expensive but also often inconvenient for one-off jobs. And not as much fun.
>Can you refer me to any website which has information related to >building an engine block? Probably not. The web is overrated. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
hls - 31 Jul 2007 20:45 GMT > Perhaps anyone here knows someone who does manufacture custom made > engine blocks/crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Can you refer me to any website which has information related to > building an engine block? As already answered, it is not feasible to make engines from billets, but it could probably be done.
A small company, many years ago, did some pioneering work in making engine blocks from welded steel plate. It was an interesting project, and they made some very light engines that were capable of high power output. Evidently they never swept the market with this technology.
I believe the company was called T and T, or maybe TnT.
Pete C. - 31 Jul 2007 20:57 GMT > > Perhaps anyone here knows someone who does manufacture custom made > > engine blocks/crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I believe the company was called T and T, or maybe TnT. It is done. One example I've heard of is the engine used in a Tatra military 8x8 truck which I believe is a 12 cyl multi fuel air cooled diesel that is fabricated from plate stock (incorrectly called "billet") and has roller bearings on the crankshaft.
Pete C.
Scott Dorsey - 08 Aug 2007 15:47 GMT >> As already answered, it is not feasible to make engines from billets, >> but it could probably be done. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >diesel that is fabricated from plate stock (incorrectly called "billet") >and has roller bearings on the crankshaft. Building engines from welded plate stock is very different than milling them out of a single billet of metal. It's an interesting idea, though. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
John S. - 31 Jul 2007 21:02 GMT > <lethaldri...@gmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I believe the company was called T and T, or maybe TnT. The late 1940's Crosley cars used a welded steel engine.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 31 Jul 2007 21:02 GMT Many years ago, Croaley cars (circa 1939 - 1952) engines blocks were made of welded steel plates. www.crosleycars.com
Jasper Engines rebuilding company supplied at least one engine for a NASCAR car. www.jasperengines.com cuhulin
cuhulin@webtv.net - 31 Jul 2007 21:17 GMT Crosley (Powell Crosley) was famous for a lot of products.Autos and radio and tv sets and home appliances and products for World War Two. www.ggw.org/~cac cuhulin
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 01 Aug 2007 18:36 GMT On Jul 31, 10:38 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote:
> Perhaps anyone here knows someone who does manufacture custom made > engine blocks/crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > > > Just interested and curious. There are a number of places that produce blocks of SB Chevies and other engines used in race cars. Donovan is one that comes immediately to mind, but there are a number of others. Usually these guys cast in aluminum blocks that the factory casts in cast iron.
There are even companies making aluminum blocks of Ford Model A!
Steve - 31 Jul 2007 18:13 GMT > On Jul 31, 9:52 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Casting, forging, drilling, milling, heat treating are the basic > proceesses used. Add powdered metal fusion for lots of modern connecting rods.
z - 02 Aug 2007 16:55 GMT > On Jul 31, 9:52 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Crosleys used to have an engine block welded up out of sheet metal. How cool is that?
Scott Dorsey - 02 Aug 2007 18:50 GMT >Crosleys used to have an engine block welded up out of sheet metal. >How cool is that? Not cool at all when differential expansion causes the thing to delaminate.
The Soviets had a bunch of tractor engines made this way, and I have seen a small 2-cycle engine from Homelite built this way as well. It's a cute idea for someone with limited manufacturing facilities. --scott
 Signature "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
athertonracing.com - 31 Jul 2007 16:28 GMT Casting, machining, forging. It simply depends on what your goals for the parts are; durability, strenght, lightweight, high performance.
All these are considerations, hope this helps!
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B.B. - 01 Aug 2007 16:10 GMT > What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and > crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Just interested and curious. One example. http://www.dmdaustralia.com.au/block.html
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Don Bruder - 01 Aug 2007 17:07 GMT In article <DoNotSpamthegoat4-F6374B.10100501082007@ia.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
> > What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and > > crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > One example. > http://www.dmdaustralia.com.au/block.html Wasn't there once a car powered by a "laminated block" engine? You know, a stack of (relatively) thin sheets - each maybe an eight to a quarter inch thick, having cutouts in the right places to make the cylinders and various fluid passages, stacked up, then bonded together, much like a "Master" lock?
I seem to recall reading something along those lines somewhere, but it was long enough ago that I've forgotten if it was something that actually went into production, or if it was just one of those one-off things magazines such as Popular Science/Popular Mechanics seemed to enjoy going all googly-eyed over as "the wave of the future".
 Signature Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist, or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow" somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
RHZ - 01 Aug 2007 17:57 GMT > In article > <DoNotSpamthegoat4-F6374B.10100501082007@ia.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > things magazines such as Popular Science/Popular Mechanics seemed to > enjoy going all googly-eyed over as "the wave of the future". Wasn't that Crosley?
Don Bruder - 01 Aug 2007 20:13 GMT > > In article > > <DoNotSpamthegoat4-F6374B.10100501082007@ia.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > Wasn't that Crosley? Could be...
Like I said, it's been so long since I read about it that all I can remember about it is the concept - I can't recall where I read it, or if it ever got made.
 Signature Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist, or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow" somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
Dan_Thomas_nospam@yahoo.com - 01 Aug 2007 20:47 GMT > In article > <DoNotSpamthegoat4-F6374B.10100501082...@ia.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > things magazines such as Popular Science/Popular Mechanics seemed to > enjoy going all googly-eyed over as "the wave of the future". Wow. I could see things getting ugly in that engine as the various levels of cylinder wall heat at different rates and the plates start to shift. The rings would not like that at all.
Dan
Nate Nagel - 02 Aug 2007 00:53 GMT >>In article >><DoNotSpamthegoat4-F6374B.10100501082...@ia.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Dan There was the original "Cobra" engine - no, not the Carroll Shelby-tuned Ford V-8, I'm talking about the Crosley engine that was made from brazed-together sheet metal. (CoBra = Copper Brazed, get it?)
http://www.ggw.org/~cac/Mighty_Tin.html
nate
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hls - 02 Aug 2007 01:59 GMT "Nate Nagel" <njnagel@roosters.net> wrote in message
> There was the original "Cobra" engine - no, not the Carroll Shelby-tuned > Ford V-8, I'm talking about the Crosley engine that was made from > brazed-together sheet metal. (CoBra = Copper Brazed, get it?) Exactly.. The TNT engine mentioned earllier was also integrated by flowing copper over the surfaces...at least, the plate welded heads were done this way.
Don Bruder - 02 Aug 2007 02:00 GMT > > In article > > <DoNotSpamthegoat4-F6374B.10100501082...@ia.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>, [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Dan Well, I can see where that would be a problem if the "raw edges"of the plates made up the cylinder walls. But then, the next thing that crosses my mind is "What's so hard about slipping a cast iron (or whatever metal you care to use that can do the job) sleeve into deliberately over-bored (Or "over-stamped", if you prefer) cylinders?"
After all, it's proven technology in lawn mower engines... CI sleeve in Al block is right on the edge of being universal anymore.
 Signature Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist, or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow" somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
cuhulin@webtv.net - 02 Aug 2007 02:32 GMT www.devilfinder.com Laminated Engine Blocks
At that devilfinder search, there are some sites about laminated steel.If you scroll way on down, there is an article about, Ford using laminated steel to reduce noise - Metals in Motion
I have never heard or read of laminated engine blocks before.But, replaceable steel/iron cylinders are old hat for a lot of older engines. cuhulin
disston - 02 Aug 2007 16:07 GMT Carol Shelby is currentlly manufacturing the 427 FE of Nascar and Cobra fame. All or most all of the new parts fit the old engines. So you can get new heads for your old engine or a complete engine. These new items are also made of aluminium or aluminium is an option, I forget. I'll try to dig up the flyers I have around but you can find this on the web.
The FE stands for Ford Edsel. Was originally designed for the Edsel cars which flopped. The engines saw much service in many sizes, 390, 428, etc. in both large cars and trucks. Chris Craft boat manufacturers even had an option for them in the mid sixties.
disston 1995 Ford Crown vic 1967 "Commander" w/ twin 427 FE's
disston - 03 Aug 2007 16:38 GMT > Carol Shelby is currentlly manufacturing the 427 FE of Nascar and > Cobra fame. All or most all of the new parts fit the old engines. So [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 1995 Ford Crown vic > 1967 "Commander" w/ twin 427 FE's I would like to add, the boat is for sale. It's around Annapolis, Md. And it's cheap. for details contact me off list. disston
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 08 Aug 2007 00:57 GMT > What do you call the process to make parts such engine blocks and > crankcases? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Just interested and curious. These folks (http://vri.etec.wwu.edu/) have done some interesting development with various vehicle technologies. Their web page search function appears to be broken, but when I went on a tour there, they were working on a composite carbon fiber engine block. Cylinder sleeves, bearings and such were machined from steel and the block was built up around these components using wrapped carbon fiber. Quite interesting, even though most of the technology was lost on me (I'm an EE and was paying more attention to their hybrid drive train technologies).
 Signature Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ I have a truly marvellous sig which this margin is too narrow to contain.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 08 Aug 2007 01:48 GMT www.devilfinder.com Smokey Yunick Ceramic Engine
I used to read Smokey Yunick's (Best Damn Garage in Town) articles in Popular Science magazine.He also used to have aome articles in Circle magazine, I think it was Circle magazine.At one time, he was working on developing a ceramic engine. cuhulin
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 08 Aug 2007 14:44 GMT On Aug 7, 7:48 pm, cuhu...@webtv.net wrote:
> www.devilfinder.com Smokey Yunick Ceramic Engine > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > developing a ceramic engine. > cuhulin Many auto companies have worked on ceramic engines. On a car engine, the fuel energy splits three ways. About a third is useful work delivered to the wheels, about a third goes out the exhaust as temperature and pressure of exhaust gas, and about a third goes out the cooling system. If we could eliminate the cooling system the result is what is called an adiabatic engine, and would almost double efficiency.
After a lot of work overcoming brittleness of ceramic they found the big stumbling block is OIL! Any petroleum oil cokes onto the cylinder walls, and so far silicones have just not worked.
BTW, the resulting engine MUST be a diesel. For a spark ignition engine the mixture would light off as soon as intake valve opens and mixture meets multi--thousand degree cylinder walls and head surfaces.
C. E. White - 08 Aug 2007 15:05 GMT > Many auto companies have worked on ceramic engines. On a car > engine, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > double > efficiency. You would get nowhere near double the efficiency. The efficiency of almost any heat engine is related to the difference between the maximum temperature of the working fluid and the temperature of the heat sink. The adiabatic engine would have a higher maximum working temperature (at least in theory), which would improve efficiency, but you aren't going to double the efficiency. You'll end up with a hotter exhaust...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine
Ed
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 21 Aug 2007 01:24 GMT > > Many auto companies have worked on ceramic engines. On a car > > engine, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_engine And possibly NOx emission problems as well.
 Signature Paul Hovnanian paul@hovnanian.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Marching to a different kettle of fish.
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