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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2007

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Battery on Concrete / Water-Witching same?

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Gene Gardner - 07 Aug 2007 19:33 GMT
I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor, was still propagating
the idea that "storing a battery on concrete" would contribute to its discharge.
With my considerable background in electronics, I have never heard a credible explanation for this.
Does anyone have one? It seems to me more like Water-Witching and Religion.....more Faith than Fact.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 07 Aug 2007 20:09 GMT
I believe that is an old fairy tale which dates way on back to old style
batteries, for whatever reasons, about storing a battey on concrete.I
don't see how it would have any effect at all on modern day
batteries.The main thing is to keep the battery charged up properly and
in my opinion, use the battery once in a while.
cuhulin
Ad absurdum per aspera - 07 Aug 2007 20:40 GMT
I've heard this on and off for years, and have never really been able
to figure out the physics of it either.  Some discussions in  urban-
folklore circles make me classify it as "ascribing false causality" to
a battery's natural loss of charge at a fractional percentage while
just sitting there -- exacerbated by any acid that leaked over the
case (batteries used to be leakier, especially up top, than they are
now).  Some people say that trapped moisture under the battery might
also help in the completion of a circuit.

(Even modern batteries leak a bit, as anyone can testify who has found
hidden corrosion under the battery tray in a car that's been in
service, with typical (lack of) maintenance, for several years or
more.)

It may have had even more of a basis in fact in olden times when a
battery involved a "battery jar" in a wooden case, but that was
donkey's years ago and probably has little to do with relatively
modern rubber or plastic cased batteries.
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/www_2001/content/faqs/tech_talk/maintenance/f
aq_tech_maint.htm


As someone points out in one such discussion at
http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000695;p=1
there is also some likelihood that the battery was put on the floor
because it was unsatisfactory in some way in the first place,
whereupon it failed to get better with age.  See also
http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-13.htm -- in particular the
statement that "Lead-acid batteries must always be stored in a charged
state. {...} Prolonged storage below the critical voltage causes
sulfation, a condition that is difficult to reverse."  In other words,
the concrete isn't the killer of the battery, just its tombstone.

Those sites also have quite a bit of information on the care and
feeding of costly batteries that most people probably don't know, as
does
http://www.batteryfaq.org/

I might add that if a battery is  leaking a lot, it can uglify the
concrete (or pretty much whatever else you set it on), but a seriously
leaking battery needs secondary containment pending proper disposal
anyway.

Cheers,
--Joe
Mike Romain - 07 Aug 2007 21:01 GMT
> I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor, was still propagating
>  the idea that "storing a battery on concrete" would contribute to its discharge.
> With my considerable background in electronics, I have never heard a credible explanation for this.
> Does anyone have one? It seems to me more like Water-Witching and Religion.....more Faith than Fact.

Sure it is a fact and does happen.  Batteries get a thin layer of acid
on them as they charge and discharge which comes from the vents or even
splashes from moving.  That is why you can burn holes in pants by
picking up a battery.

This layer, although thin will allow some current to flow over the
battery to the concrete floor which will discharge a battery over time
like a winter storage and leave a stain on the floor.

I tried an experiment with my electric boat batteries and left a couple
on concrete for a winter, the rest were on plywood.  The concrete ones
drained down, the plywood ones held.

And 'water witching' works really well!  I have found well sources and
can even find a blocked sewer pipe under a concrete floor or trace out
sewer pipes with running water in them!   Saves a lot of digging when
hooking up a new toilet or fixing trouble.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Patok - 07 Aug 2007 22:15 GMT
> And 'water witching' works really well!  I have found well sources and
> can even find a blocked sewer pipe under a concrete floor or trace out
> sewer pipes with running water in them!   Saves a lot of digging when
> hooking up a new toilet or fixing trouble.

    Well, Mike, you're in for a treat then! Just prove to James Randi
that you can really do it, and the $1,000,000 is yours!
    Apropos, how exactly do you do it? What appliance do you use?
(Stick(s), wood, metal, shape?)
cuhulin@webtv.net - 07 Aug 2007 23:04 GMT
The Aboriginals in Australia know how to find water in the desert with a
long straw.I guess they do anyway, I saw it on one of those Crocodile
Dundee movies.Get two Coca Cola bottles (or similar bottles) and cut two
pieces of coat hanger and bend them at a right angle, put the wires in
the bottles and walk around and see if you can find any water.
cuhulin
Mike Romain - 07 Aug 2007 23:34 GMT
>> And 'water witching' works really well!  I have found well sources and
>> can even find a blocked sewer pipe under a concrete floor or trace out
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>     Apropos, how exactly do you do it? What appliance do you use?
> (Stick(s), wood, metal, shape?)

Been doing it since I was a kid.  I use a Y stick of either willow or
alder and they will dive at water strong enough to peel off the bark in
my hands if I try to hold them up if there is a good water source.

My dad was a skeptic too until I traced the house sewer pipes and he
compared my chalk marks to the blueprints.

I know lots of others too, why is someone offering money for a well
finder?  They are common in rural areas of Canada.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile...
Canadian Off Road Trips Photos:  Non members can still view!
Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Don Bruder - 08 Aug 2007 03:45 GMT
> >> And 'water witching' works really well!  I have found well sources and
> >> can even find a blocked sewer pipe under a concrete floor or trace out
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I know lots of others too, why is someone offering money for a well
> finder?  They are common in rural areas of Canada.

Hey, Mike?
He's serious. The guy is offering a million bucks in your choice of cash
or negotiable instruments for anybody who, under controlled conditions,
can successfully demonstrate (meaning "do better than random chance")
dowsing, or any other "paranormal" ability. The offer has been up and
standing for at least 5 years that I'm aware of. And nobody - not
dowsers, not psychics, not *ANYBODY* who has attempted to claim it has
gotten past the "weed out the nutcases" prelims.

If you're so sure that you can do it, a million bucks is waiting for you
anytime you want to go talk to the guy.

But I'm betting that, much like the several hundred previous dowsers who
have unsuccessfully tried to claim the cash, you'll have some excuse for
why "it just isn't working for me today"...

(No, Mike, I'm NOT trying to be a dick - but James has seen all the
crackpots, with more coming continuously. And he's heard all the
excuses. And to date, not a single dowser has even come close to a 50%
success rate at "finding" water when they make the attempt. Despite
incredibly simple conditions...)

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

Mike Romain - 08 Aug 2007 17:26 GMT
>>>> And 'water witching' works really well!  I have found well sources and
>>>> can even find a blocked sewer pipe under a concrete floor or trace out
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> success rate at "finding" water when they make the attempt. Despite
> incredibly simple conditions...)

Interesting.  I never thought it was a big mystery.

I read some of the website and it would seem if you can prove something,
he has 10K to give, not a million.  Well a million is supposedly stashed
someplace for show anyway.

You are right though, he only attracts crackpots or nutcases from what I
have read so far.

Still, I could sure use the 10K.....

I think it's time to raid the neighbour's willow tree for some branches
and see if my 'skills' are better than random.

Mike
cuhulin@webtv.net - 08 Aug 2007 17:37 GMT
I might find me a willow tree and snag a few branches and try it out
too.I sort of think water witching is for real.I have a battery stored
on a wooden shelf in my shed in my back yard because I don't want to
trip on it if I put it on the floor.Sometimes I stub my toe on my
bathroom door when I go to my bathroom, that hurts.
cuhulin
Don Bruder - 08 Aug 2007 20:32 GMT
> >>>> And 'water witching' works really well!  I have found well sources and
> >>>> can even find a blocked sewer pipe under a concrete floor or trace out
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> Mike

If I recall rightly, the 10K is the "OK, you've proven it, here's 10
grand to prove I'm not bullshitting, and I'll get back with you in a few
days once I liquidate the rest of the million" check, with the rest of
it in the form of negotiable instruments tucked away in a lockdown in (I
believe) New York.

Signature

Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

Ad absurdum per aspera - 09 Aug 2007 02:30 GMT
See

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html (the $1M challenge and how to
take your turn -- note that, apparently, no one has gotten past the
preliminary stage for a serious run at the money)

http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/index.html (some basics on
dowsing aka water witching, which is a venerable and widespread
paranormal claim, for the obvious reason that almost any society would
benefit from it, if only it worked).

I would expect things to start with much negotiation about how to do a
controlled test, eliminating cues  *other than*  paranormal powers
supposedly invested in either the claimant or the dowsing instrument
-- i.e., what one might call the Bombeck Effect (as in Erma Bombeck,
who of course wrote "The grass is always greener over the septic
tank").

Cheers,
--Joe
Marsh Monster - 08 Aug 2007 07:41 GMT
> Been doing it since I was a kid.  I use a Y stick of either willow or
> alder and they will dive at water strong enough to peel off the bark in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Mike
=========
=========

Well.....I .....CAN"T do it....and i've tried!!!!
.
but....................
.
I ...HAVE seen it done on TWO occasions....
both times to find pipes.  Once to locate a
standard undergound water line by grandfather,
and the other by a man that used it to locate
old sewer lines.  First time when i was a kid...
the second i was in my mid 20's on Fripp Island
South Carolina during the building of a golf course.
.
    If Mike says he can do it.....i don't doubt it
a bit......his description of what he uses
mirrors what I saw and what i've heard from
older family members over the years.
.
     As to the 1 million dollor challenge......
one would have to question what the conditions
were, as far as "controlled test" goes......aye?
In order for the devine'n rod to work....it has to
cross over a deviation in the earths magnetic
field.  (fact,not fiction)
So if the guy stick'n up the 1 million dollors has
eliminated that ONE criteria...then NO ONE is
going to be able to pass his "controlled test".
.
    As for any of you that don't subscribe to the
validity of the skill......well....you yung'ns believe
what you want.....my old arse still believes what
i've seen!!!

as a last note.....anyone that is adamant about
disproving that it works...please explain to me
how a compass works to find electrical wires in
a wall????

~~
00
L
O

~:~
marsh
~takes a sip of his crownroyal....pours one fer mike....
and wonders if mike has ever "smelled" rain come'n~~
~:~
Mike Romain - 08 Aug 2007 15:29 GMT
> ~:~
> marsh
> ~takes a sip of his crownroyal....pours one fer mike....
> and wonders if mike has ever "smelled" rain come'n~~
> ~:~

LOL!  Is that supposed to be another weird trick that I am not supposed
to be able to do either?  I also watch the leaves on trees and when they
all flip their bottoms up, rain is usually on the way.

Mike
Steve W. - 08 Aug 2007 22:49 GMT
>> ~:~
>> marsh
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Mike

You Too? I can generally come withing 5 minutes of timing rain here by
the smell in the air. I have seen dowsing done as well one person I know
can put his hand on someones shoulder and walk with them and find water.
He usually hits the depth as well.

Signature

Steve W.

C. E. White - 10 Aug 2007 14:07 GMT
> You Too? I can generally come withing 5 minutes of timing rain here
> by the smell in the air. I have seen dowsing done as well one person
> I know can put his hand on someones shoulder and walk with them and
> find water. He usually hits the depth as well.

Where I have a small farm, I can do this. I don't need a anything. In
fact, I can just throw a rock out at random. Drill down 30 feet where
the rock hits and I guarantee you'll find water. Of course you can
drill almost anywhere around here and find water. The trick is finding
good water. But even that is not too hard.

Ed
Ashton Crusher - 08 Aug 2007 06:39 GMT
If you really believe you have the ability to water witch why don't
you go here...

http://www.randi.org/research/index.html

and make yourself $1,000,000 richer.  So far not a single person has
ever been able to find water when put to the test.  Randi did a very
well laid out real world test of several who claimed they could and
none were able to find water.

Lots of info about it on his dowsing page
http://www.randi.org/library/dowsing/index.html



>> I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor, was still propagating
>>  the idea that "storing a battery on concrete" would contribute to its discharge.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
>(More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Mike Romain - 08 Aug 2007 15:59 GMT
Thanks for the links, I am going to look into this, but it seems almost
like an internet scam.

Mike

> If you really believe you have the ability to water witch why don't
> you go here...
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
>> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Ashton Crusher - 09 Aug 2007 08:03 GMT
>Thanks for the links, I am going to look into this, but it seems almost
>like an internet scam.
>
>Mike

No, it's legit.  Randi's been around for years, has several best
seller type books and has exposed numerous frauds over the years.  I'm
sure some water witchers are frauds but I think most really believe
they can do it.  I tried the bent coat hanger wires years ago and I
discovered I could find water!!  Without consciously trying it seemed
like whenever I waved them over water, like the faucet in a sink, they
would swing and cross.  Yet EVERY controlled test where proper double
blind procedures is followed proves that it doesn't work.  So I am as
susceptible to fooling myself as anyone else.  But I'm willing to
accept that it is just that I'm fooling myself.

>> If you really believe you have the ability to water witch why don't
>> you go here...
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>>> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
>>> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
Ashton Crusher - 21 Aug 2007 06:11 GMT
Here's a link to a youtube video of some people taking a quick test of
their dowsing abilities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYGeuPcKdko

>Thanks for the links, I am going to look into this, but it seems almost
>like an internet scam.
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>>> Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590
>>> (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page)
tnom@mucks.net - 07 Aug 2007 21:39 GMT
>I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor, was still propagating
> the idea that "storing a battery on concrete" would contribute to its discharge.
>With my considerable background in electronics, I have never heard a credible explanation for this.
>Does anyone have one? It seems to me more like Water-Witching and Religion.....more Faith than Fact.

It's not a myth.What happens is this. Concrete by it's nature and
size/weight deadens vibration. It also maintains a more constant
temperature than other surfaces.

Those two factors lead to a battery that will over time allow
stratification of the chemicals of the battery much more readily
than a battery that gets moved around from time to time. This
stratification harms the battery.
hls - 08 Aug 2007 01:41 GMT
<tnom@mucks.net> wrote in message > It's not a myth.What happens is this.
Concrete by it's nature and
> size/weight deadens vibration. It also maintains a more constant
> temperature than other surfaces.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> than a battery that gets moved around from time to time. This
> stratification harms the battery.

Sorry to be crude, but my comment to this is "horseshit!"
jim - 08 Aug 2007 02:59 GMT
> >I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor, was still propagating
> > the idea that "storing a battery on concrete" would contribute to its discharge.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> size/weight deadens vibration. It also maintains a more constant
> temperature than other surfaces.

I think the location of the concrete is the major factor. Uninsulated
concrete in an unheated garage is always cold and damp. The reason the
concrete is  cold is because the ground is cold and the warmer air will
condense moisture. If you set a battery on the concrete the battery will
also be cold and damp. It's gets damp because moisture condenses on cold
objects. If you set the battery on a surface that is insulated from the
cold concrete the battery will stay closer to air temperature and have
less condensation.
    On the other hand if you put the battery on concrete that is insulated
in a heated building then the problem of condensation is not present. If
the battery stays nice and dry it won't lose its charge as fast.

> Those two factors lead to a battery that will over time allow
> stratification of the chemicals of the battery much more readily
> than a battery that gets moved around from time to time. This
> stratification harms the battery.

So your theory is you put it on the floor then you forget about it? Put
the battery on a workbench and you are always moving it to get it out of
your way.

-jim
Scott Buchanan - 08 Aug 2007 05:23 GMT
My understanding of this practice stems from long ago when batteries were
made in glass jars. The fear was that if you set it on concrete you could
break the glass thus destroying the battery.

I personally store a couple of batteries on concrete and don't see any more
discharge in them than in cars that do not get driven much. Not scientific,
I know.

Any battery not in use needs to be charge every couple of months or so. I
charge my riding mower battery once a month in the off season. The original
battery lasted 13 years. My neighbor who does not charge his has to replace
his every couple of years. To get a full charge you need to take it to about
15.25 volts. I like to use a 1 amp charger for this.

> I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor, was still propagating
>  the idea that "storing a battery on concrete" would contribute to its discharge.
> With my considerable background in electronics, I have never heard a credible explanation for this.
> Does anyone have one? It seems to me more like Water-Witching and Religion.....more Faith than Fact.
CraigFL - 08 Aug 2007 12:38 GMT
OK... here's the explanation I've always heard....

The generation of electricity in a lead acid cell is an exothermic
reaction -- i.e. it generates(gives off) heat(and electricity) during
the chemical reaction. In theory, the battery comes to a steady state
where heat is generated(internally) and lost(thru the plastic case) at
the same rate. This means the "charge" is being lost even if the
battery is just sitting and not being used. Now, if you suck away heat
faster from the battery, you're sucking away charge faster. A concrete
floor or slab is almost the ultimate heat sink. You could put a lot of
heat into it without significantly raising the temperature. So the
battery heat is efficiently taken away quickly by sitting on the
concrete reducing the charge.

While the theory says this is true, I believe the actual effect to be
very small compared to many other factors including the air
temperature, the cell manufacturing tolerances and chemical tolerances.
I really don't think you could take two batteries, put one on a piece of
insulation and one directly on the concrete and expect any one to last
longer than the other every time...

Signature

CraigFL

http://www.automotiveforums.com

Mike - 09 Aug 2007 14:58 GMT
> I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor,
> was still propagating
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Does anyone have one? It seems to me more like Water-Witching and
> Religion.....more Faith than Fact.

http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq14.htm#concrete
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 01 Sep 2007 19:35 GMT
> I was surprised that my "factory" manual that came with a 2002 boat/motor, was still propagating
>  the idea that "storing a battery on concrete" would contribute to its discharge.
> With my considerable background in electronics, I have never heard a credible explanation for this.
> Does anyone have one? It seems to me more like Water-Witching and Religion.....more Faith than Fact.

Its a thermal effect. A concrete slab on grade is often cooler than the
surrounding ambient. Placing a battery on this surface cools the bottom
of the battery. The bottom half of the plates, being cooler than the
top, generate a slightly lower voltage. The top half of the plates 'see'
this as if its a battery with a lower charge connected in parallel. The
top half of the plates discharge in an attempt to recharge the bottom
half.

Since this circuit cannot be 100% efficient, net stored energy is lost.

Signature

Paul Hovnanian    paul@hovnanian.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The blinking cursor writes; and having writ, blinks on.

cuhulin@webtv.net - 01 Sep 2007 20:06 GMT
Hoover Dam, after all these years, is still cooling off.
cuhulin
cuhulin@webtv.net - 01 Sep 2007 20:07 GMT
Massive amounts of concrete generate bouque heat.
cuhulin
Steve B. - 02 Sep 2007 04:06 GMT
>Massive amounts of concrete generate bouque heat.
>cuhulin

Chickens have wings and lay eggs.

           Steve B.
 
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