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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2007

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Engine Sounds by type

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phaeton - 14 Aug 2007 02:18 GMT
What is the general (or specific) reason why:

Almost all inline 4cylinders sound alike
Almost all boxer 4cylinders sound alike
V6s sound like V6s, but inline 6s sound like inline 6s
And of course, nothing has the 'trademark V8 sound' like a V8..

(seemingly regardless of manufacturer, fuel type, or displacement
size)

Thanks.

-ph
BobG - 14 Aug 2007 02:37 GMT
Do all V twin motorcycle engines go 'potato-potato-potato'?
Maybe the 'envelope' of the 'bangs per sec' is similar for each type?
Nate Nagel - 14 Aug 2007 02:50 GMT
> Do all V twin motorcycle engines go 'potato-potato-potato'?
> Maybe the 'envelope' of the 'bangs per sec' is similar for each type?

Only odd-fire ones like a Harley.  I believe they actually have
registered their exhaust sound as a trademark, although I don't know if
that's ever been challenged.  I don't know that anyone else would want
to copy Harley's crank/vee layout; it works, but it's not the
smoothest-running cat skinner.

nate

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Don Bruder - 14 Aug 2007 03:59 GMT
> > Do all V twin motorcycle engines go 'potato-potato-potato'?
> > Maybe the 'envelope' of the 'bangs per sec' is similar for each type?
>
> Only odd-fire ones like a Harley.  I believe they actually have
> registered their exhaust sound as a trademark, although I don't know if
> that's ever been challenged.

I'm pretty sure that they did, and it has, and the "Vulcan" engine had
to be changed so that it didn't sound like a Harley because of it.

> I don't know that anyone else would want
> to copy Harley's crank/vee layout; it works, but it's not the
> smoothest-running cat skinner.
>
> nate

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Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info

Ad absurdum per aspera - 15 Aug 2007 21:49 GMT
> In article <f9r1pv0...@news2.newsguy.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > registered their exhaust sound as a trademark, although I don't know if
> > that's ever been challenged.

They filed for it in 1994 and gave it up after six years of contention
against other motorcycle manufacturers.  I'm not sure whether this
resulted in any great landmark at the legal frontier of copyrighting
of sounds, or just affirmed the well-known principle that a law fight
can be dragged out for a long expensive time.

> > I don't know that anyone else would want
> > to copy Harley's crank/vee layout; it works, but it's not the
> > smoothest-running cat skinner.

A friend once pointed out something that should've been obvious, but
which I overlooked for many years:  it's a special and simplified case
of the engine layout known as a "radial,"  once commonly used for
aircraft.    Anyway, there are several vee-twin motorcyle engines
(common crankpin or otherwise).  It's one of the oldest arrangements
and (thin ice ahead) may have seemed to early designers like the most
logical way to build two cylinder engines after usually starting out
with one cylinder.  Indian and Marsh-Metz come to mind as companies
that had V-twins (of one angle or another) even a few years before
Harley and Davidson came out with theirs.    It was  an idea much in
the air in the early 1900s, I guess, or at least the logical next
step.

Some cool stuff:
http://home.cogeco.ca/~rwbaxter/The%20V-Twin.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radial_engine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T2uQYNUu6c
Nate Nagel - 14 Aug 2007 02:44 GMT
> What is the general (or specific) reason why:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> -ph

It has to do with firing order, and the logical combining of exhaust
pipes.  A straight six with split manifolds 3/3 like a BMW makes for a
smooth yet sweet sound.  The V-8 "lope" is because the firing order is
generally 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 yet the exhaust pipes are combined 1-3-5-7 and
2-4-6-8, so you have the 8-4 and 5-7 pulses right next to each other in
the same pipe, with the delay between 1-3 and 6-2 being longer, so each
pipe gets pulse-wait-wait-pulse-wait-pulse-pulse-wait, 180 degrees out
of phase with each other (well, that's 180 degrees of *cam* but 360
degrees of *crank...* you get the idea, anyway)  if a V-8 is set up with
an even fire exhaust like some old mid-engine racers (GT40 comes to
mind) it sounds a lot like a straight six, but more so, but the exhaust
looks like a bundle of drunken snakes.  A V-12 is basically like two
straight sixes put together, so they sound really smooth as well.

V6's sound like sh.t because there's no natural way to even out a V6 and
also have it balanced.  Four cylinders sound like I-6's but a little
rougher, which you'd expect.  Boxers sound unique, and to be honest I'm
not sure why, maybe it has something to do with the necessity to have
the two main exhaust pipes separated for a while before they come
together (if they ever do.)

Then there's esoterica like how V-8s with siamesed center exhaust ports,
like old flathead Fords, Studebakers, and early Caddys might not be as
efficient as a modern head/exhaust design but they sound oh so good...
something about combining the 3/5 and 2/4 ports makes the exhaust get
all nasty sounding...

nate

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Dan_Thomas_nospam@yahoo.com - 14 Aug 2007 04:48 GMT
> V6's sound like sh.t because there's no natural way to even out a V6 and
> also have it balanced.

      Huh. I like the sound of a V6, especially the old Buick (1960s
type).

> Boxers sound unique, and to be honest I'm
> not sure why, maybe it has something to do with the necessity to have
> the two main exhaust pipes separated for a while before they come
> together (if they ever do.)

     It's the boxer's firing order again. On an opposed four, the
left two cylinders fire, then the right two, and since the cylinders
on each side are usually plumbed together exhaust-wise, they have this
(left)pop-pop(right)pop-pop sound to them. Some of them, notably in
some aircraft such as the Piper Cherokee, have the exhaust plumbed so
that they fire evenly; it takes a bunch more pipe and with the
different lengths they end up sounding about the same anyway. Opposed
sixes have a totally different firing order so thay have a unique
sound of their own. There's an opposed eight, but I've never heard it.
Not very common. It's the Lycoming IO-720, seen here:
http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/content/2005/apr/images/lycoming.jpg
    The chrome pipes are intake runners, not exhaust pipes. No
exhaust in installed in this picture.

      I miss my old 13-foot Cracker Box-style boat with its
completely-hidden Chev 283. Shoulda seen the looks on people's faces
when that tiny boat fired up. I don't think I could build another one
now, with all the new rules about how much power you can put in a
given size of boat. Either that, or that V-8 would have to be
"derated" to 50 HP or so...

   Dan
phaeton - 20 Sep 2007 04:21 GMT
> > What is the general (or specific) reason why:
>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> --
> replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Thanks to everyone for the replies.  It's been an informative and
entertaining read!

"bundle of drunken snakes" is my new favourite term.

-ph
Steve - 20 Sep 2007 14:41 GMT
>>V6's sound like sh.t because there's no natural way to even out a V6 and
>>also have it balanced.

That's not really true. a 60-degree v6 alternates banks, fires even, and
is (reasonably, about like a v8) well-balanced.
N8N - 20 Sep 2007 17:32 GMT
> >>V6's sound like sh.t because there's no natural way to even out a V6 and
> >>also have it balanced.
>
> That's not really true. a 60-degree v6 alternates banks, fires even, and
> is (reasonably, about like a v8) well-balanced.

Good point; I was thinking about 90 degree sixes.

However, the engine in my Impala still sounds like sh.t, while the I-6
in my old BMW 535i had a wonderful ripping-cloth exhaust note that was
practically guaranteed to put a little woodrow in your wilson.  Not
sure why that is.

nate
Steve - 20 Sep 2007 20:54 GMT
>>>>V6's sound like sh.t because there's no natural way to even out a V6 and
>>>>also have it balanced.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> nate

A former contributor here (you should know who) has said for years that
a slant-6 through Dutra Duals (front/rear split) sounds lovely, while a
v6 through duals sounds like sh.t. I politely nod, but to me they *both*
sound like equal sh.t (or at least wet farts). But I agree that an
inline 6 through a *single* exhaust sounds altogether different, and for
some reason plumbing a v6 into a single exhaust won't make it sound as
silky an inline 6.
N8N - 20 Sep 2007 22:28 GMT
> >>>>V6's sound like sh.t because there's no natural way to even out a V6 and
> >>>>also have it balanced.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> some reason plumbing a v6 into a single exhaust won't make it sound as
> silky an inline 6.

I imagine, although haven't had the pleasure, that a 225 with the
exhaust you describe would sound an awful lot like my old Bimmer, at
least until it ran out of revs.  I would ASSume with a little howl
added from the 4-bbl. carb (why bother with dual exhaust if you don't
Hyper-Pak it as well?)  Having owned both, the engines even LOOK very
similar, with the main difference being that the Bimmer's exhaust is
on the passenger side (crossflow head) and the Bimmer has an overhead
cam.

The one V-6 that I have heard that sounds fairly sweet is the current
VW/Audi V-6, its exhaust sounds quite similar to the earlier VR6 which
I'm not considering to be a true V-6 for purposes of this discussion
as it had a 15 degree bank angle and a single head; for all intents
and purposes it was essentially a really cleverly packaged inline
motor.

Your post reminds me, I have some 70's vintage Cibies that I was going
to put in my '55...

nate
N8N - 20 Sep 2007 17:29 GMT
> > > What is the general (or specific) reason why:
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
> "bundle of drunken snakes" is my new favourite term.

and it's reasonably accurate as well :)

http://gpma.org/Archive/gt40s.html

nate
Steve - 15 Aug 2007 03:44 GMT
> What is the general (or specific) reason why:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> -ph

Firing order as determined by crankshaft and camshaft geometry, and
placement of the exhaust ports and the related exhaust plumbing.  The
V8, in particular, has its trademark sound because when you build it
with a 90-degree crank (as 99% of street cars are because of balance) it
causes a pair of cylinders on each bank to fire in sequence. IOW, if "L"
represents a cylinder firing on the driver's side (left) bank and "R"
represents a cylinder firing on the passenger's side (right) bank, then
a 90-degree v8 firing order is L-R-L-L-R-L-R-R-L-R-L-L.... etc. The
paired firings on alternate banks cause the "v8 burble" even if the
pipes get plumbed into a single exhaust eventually. There are several
possible physical firing orders for a v8 (for example, aftermarket cam
companies often swap 2 cylinders on the small-block Chevy for better
performance) but ALL the valid firing orders still have that pairing on
each bank at some point during the order. V6 engines don't do that- they
strictly alternate banks like a pair of 3-cylinder engines running
slightly out of phase.

FWIW, a "flat crank" v8 does NOT make that sound. But as I said, most
poeple never hear a flat-crank v8 because they're so rare. IIRC, the
Indy Racing League used (or still uses) flat-crank v8s. I know they did
when Oldsmobile and Infiniti were supplying the engines years back, anyway.
 
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