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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2007

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car tilting

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lethaldriver@gmail.com - 30 Sep 2007 15:22 GMT
Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
circle?  There's both centripetal force but the roll/tilting is
different.

What should I do to the car to make it lean/tilt towards the inside of
a circle when cornering (like a motorcycle)?

I built a small reverse trike with no front suspension.  I once tried
to do a hard left turn and the left wheel got off the ground so I had
to slow down and steer the other opposite direction.

I don't want to eliminate roll.... I want it to roll to the direction
I'm steering.
steer left - roll left
steer right - roll right

Does this have anything to do with caster? or maybe camber settings?
Nate Nagel - 30 Sep 2007 15:24 GMT
> Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
> circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
> circle?  There's both centripetal force but the roll/tilting is
> different.

The car rolls (the actual name of what you're describing) because the
centrifugal force is pushing it away from the center of the corner, but
the friction from the tires is keeping it in line.  However, since the
center of mass of the vehicle is higher than the tire/road interface,
the car rolls.

The bike does not lean by itself, the rider induces the lean.

> What should I do to the car to make it lean/tilt towards the inside of
> a circle when cornering (like a motorcycle)?

Get an active suspension.

> I built a small reverse trike with no front suspension.  I once tried
> to do a hard left turn and the left wheel got off the ground so I had
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Does this have anything to do with caster? or maybe camber settings?

Nope.

nate

Signature

replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Bhagat Gurtu - 30 Sep 2007 15:58 GMT
On Sun, 30 Sep 2007 07:22:41 -0700, lethaldrive wrote:

> What should I do to the car to make it lean/tilt towards the inside of a
> circle when cornering (like a motorcycle)?
>
> I built a small reverse trike with no front suspension.  I once tried to
> do a hard left turn and the left wheel got off the ground so I had to
> slow down and steer the other opposite direction.

Of course it would. With no suspension you have no provision for
progressive roll.

> I don't want to eliminate roll.... I want it to roll to the direction
> I'm steering.
> steer left - roll left
> steer right - roll right

You could try tilting your head or making an active suspsension.

For the suspension you will need to add 4 inflatable cow udders, one at each
spring on your car. Each udder can be inflated and deflated independently
by a signal sent to solenoid controlled valve. You will need a pretty
powerful air compressor.

You will also need a small microcontroller which takes input from an
accelerometer. The microcontroller runs a program to calculate the
pressure at each udder to compensate for the centrifugal force calculated.
« Paul » - 30 Sep 2007 16:25 GMT
> Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
> circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Does this have anything to do with caster? or maybe camber settings?

Several things going on.
The bike by itself does not lean into a turn, the driver leans and takes
the bike with him.  The biker is more or less part of the bike, unlike a
car driver.  The biker also raises the center of gravity and moves it
out past the wheels during a turn.
The bike tries to stay upright due to the inertia and centrifical
force of the wheels.
So, if could attach a much heavier and taller driver to your vehicle he
would be able to over come the centrifical force of the Rev trike.  It
would be best to get the center of gravity past the inside wheel.
Or like Nate said, go with an active suspension.
Or a seat that power slides the driver to the inside of a turn and gets
him over the inside wheel during tight turns.
Steve Austin - 30 Sep 2007 16:58 GMT
>> Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
>> circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Or a seat that power slides the driver to the inside of a turn and gets
> him over the inside wheel during tight turns.

Or, like the racing trikes, get an acrobatic passenger.
lethaldriver@gmail.com - 30 Sep 2007 17:22 GMT
Okay thank you for your answers.

I was thinking of something like the Carver One but it's gonna be a
reverse trike.

http://www.carver-worldwide.com/Home/Index.asp?nc=1

Something more similar to the Aprilia Magnet.

It doesn't have to be like a Bose Active Suspension.

I just need the vehicle to roll to the same direction it is steered
to.
Well, I guess that might need hydraulics or something like that to
control the suspension.

On Sep 30, 11:25 pm, "? Paul ?" <"? Paul ?"@comcast.net> wrote:
> lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> Or a seat that power slides the driver to the inside of a turn and gets
> him over the inside wheel during tight turns.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 30 Sep 2007 17:29 GMT
Two wheelers are different.You have to steer right to go left, and vice
versa.
That's why dogs have tails.When they are cutting around a corner, their
tails act like rudders and helps to steer them.
cuhulin
« Paul » - 30 Sep 2007 18:05 GMT
> Two wheelers are different.You have to steer right to go left, and vice
> versa.

> That's why dogs have tails.When they are cutting around a corner, their
> tails act like rudders and helps to steer them.
> cuhulin

Dogs... - excellent!
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 30 Sep 2007 17:04 GMT
On Sep 30, 9:22 am, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote:
> Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
> circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Does this have anything to do with caster? or maybe camber settings?

The cycle leans into the turn because the CG is changing due to the
rider leaning.  The rider weighs a large fraction of the curb weight
of the vehicle, so the rider shifting has a big effect on the location
of the CG.  Also, the tire patch support on a cycle is within a line
and any time the CG moves off that line, the vehicle will tend to
lean.

On a car, the driver portion of the curb weight is a small fraction,
so even if the driver DOES lean, the CG does not move far.  Further,
the support is within a square, so would have to move a lot for a
simple upset.  Instead, one must look at the roll couple, the torque
around a line passing from the rear suspension roll center to the
front suspension roll center due to the distance from the CG to that
line.  This torque must be offset by the torques generated in the
suspension as the car does lean.

Actually, one can raise the roll centers enough that the car WILL lean
into the turn. MB demonstrated such a vehicle one time, but found
there was no real advantage, and some real disadvantages, to such a
setup.  Trains, however, have been built with such suspensions as it
was supposed to make the ride more comfortable for the passengers.
boxing@sasktel.net - 30 Sep 2007 18:37 GMT
trikes have been outlawed because they kill to many people. you can no
longer buy a new one. just make sure you sign your organ donor card
and everything will be ok. the other option would be to get a car with
4 wheels instead of 3.
Steve - 30 Sep 2007 21:30 GMT
> Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
> circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
> circle?  There's both centripetal force but the roll/tilting is
> different.

You've GOT to be kidding.
Limey Lurker - 30 Sep 2007 23:43 GMT
On 30 Sep, 15:22, lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote:
.

> What should I do to the car to make it lean/tilt towards the inside of
> a circle when cornering (like a motorcycle)?

Look for "Torix-Bennet suspension.
Don - 01 Oct 2007 04:14 GMT
>Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
>circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>What should I do to the car to make it lean/tilt towards the inside of
>a circle when cornering (like a motorcycle)?

Big wing as on a spring car.
Thousand pound driver leaning out the left door of an 800 pound car.

>I built a small reverse trike with no front suspension.  I once tried
>to do a hard left turn and the left wheel got off the ground so I had
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Does this have anything to do with caster? or maybe camber settings?

Very little.

Don
www.donsautomotive.com
Don - 01 Oct 2007 04:16 GMT
>Big wing as on a spring car.
Sorry, should have been "SPRINT" car.

>Don
>www.donsautomotive.com
* - 01 Oct 2007 14:55 GMT
lethaldriver@gmail.com wrote in article
<1191162161.602054.46030@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>...
> Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
> circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Does this have anything to do with caster? or maybe camber settings?

As soon as you figure out how to do what you want to do, write a scientific
paper on it, because you will have overcome the laws of physics.

And, there will be a line of race car engineers at your door seeking to buy
whatever secrets you have discovered that make weight shift to the opposite
direction of centrifugal forces.....secrets that they have been unable to
discover.

They get paid some pretty large dollars to work full time on weight
transfer, and they haven't discovered the secret......

.....yet, you expect to find the answer in a newsgroup that has at least as
many pretenders as people with authentic automotive knowledge.

Why don't you crack open an automotive engineering book or two? It may save
you the embarassment of asking such stupid questions.

Aren't you the guy who doesn't know the difference between a monocoque
chassis and a uni-body setup?
Scott Dorsey - 01 Oct 2007 15:59 GMT
>As soon as you figure out how to do what you want to do, write a scientific
>paper on it, because you will have overcome the laws of physics.

An active supension system will do it nicely.  I believe some of the
Citroen systems had some coupling between the steering and the suspension
causing it to lean slightly into turns.

>And, there will be a line of race car engineers at your door seeking to buy
>whatever secrets you have discovered that make weight shift to the opposite
>direction of centrifugal forces.....secrets that they have been unable to
>discover.

Not at all.  They are so well-known that they are specifically forbidden
in most races.  At least, I know NASCAR rules have a couple lines in there
about active suspension control being a no-no.
--scott

Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

* - 01 Oct 2007 16:42 GMT
Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in article
<fdr213$oll$1@panix2.panix.com>...

> >As soon as you figure out how to do what you want to do, write a scientific
> >paper on it, because you will have overcome the laws of physics.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> about active suspension control being a no-no.
> --scott

There IS a difference between having a suspension "roll" to the left - as
the OP described it - in a left-hand turn and "jacking" it to the left in a
left hand turn.

Active suspension does the latter.

Physical science prevents the former.

In theory, a high RC coupled with a low CoG would cause leftward roll in a
left-hand turn, but......

..............the mass would STILL be flung outward by centrifugal forces.
Steve - 02 Oct 2007 04:01 GMT
> Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in article
> <fdr213$oll$1@panix2.panix.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> ..............the mass would STILL be flung outward by centrifugal forces.

But the OP's whole premise that he "needs" the car to tilt left on a
left turn is STOOPID. Which way the chassis tilts doesn't have ANYTHING
to do with how well the car corners. Sure, you want to minimize the
shift of CG, and that typically means minimizing body roll, but rolling
the opposite way in and of itself doesn't say anything about whether
handling will be better or worse.
B.B. - 03 Oct 2007 15:55 GMT
[...]

> There IS a difference between having a suspension "roll" to the left - as
> the OP described it - in a left-hand turn and "jacking" it to the left in a
> left hand turn.

  Odd, you're a stickler for terminology here....

> Active suspension does the latter.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> ..............the mass would STILL be flung outward by centrifugal forces.

  ...but you talk about "centrifugal force" here.

Signature

B.B.           --I am not a goat!       thegoat4 at airmail dot net

lethaldriver@gmail.com - 01 Oct 2007 18:23 GMT
Why do some people have to be so hostile??

Sorry if I don't know a lot.
you know, not everyone's a genius.

well, maybe you're the kind of person who never asks a question but
most people do.

anyway. thanks again to the others. you've been very helpful.

I've been doing google searches on the topics you guys brought up.

> lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote in article
> <1191162161.602054.46...@n39g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>...
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Aren't you the guy who doesn't know the difference between a monocoque
> chassis and a uni-body setup?
* - 01 Oct 2007 21:39 GMT
lethaldriver@gmail.com wrote in article
<1191259406.848330.108710@g4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>...
> Why do some people have to be so hostile??
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I've been doing google searches on the topics you guys brought up.

The problem is that you don't simply ".....ask questions."

Your questions are always "off-the-wall."

You have very little understanding of the subject matter you are exploring
- suggesting that you have done no research of your own whatsoever prior to
blurting out an inane question.

You use terms incorrectly - such as monocoque and centripetal force.

I STILL believe you are simply a TROLL.
Steve - 02 Oct 2007 04:04 GMT
> Why do some people have to be so hostile??
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> well, maybe you're the kind of person who never asks a question but
> most people do.

Sensible people tend to at least figure out the dirt-simple high-school
science basics before asking silly questions. Not everyone's a genius,
but ANYONE can ask well-thought-out and prepared questions. If they
bother to try.
lethaldriver@gmail.com - 02 Oct 2007 06:52 GMT
Okay if you say so.  If you say that I'm a troll then I guess I am
one.
maybe you're the troll... a troll so smart that it's irritated at
everyone who knows less.
Maybe there isn't enough people to fight at your home that you just
have to bring out your anger here.  you're such an irritable person.

You think it's stupid?
Tell that to makers of the "Carver One"

My main concern is not with handling but more of with safety.  I just
want to make sure that the car doesn't roll over at relatively high
speed cornering/drifting.

I'd prefer a car that's drifting rather than rolling over.

> lethaldri...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Why do some people have to be so hostile??
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> but ANYONE can ask well-thought-out and prepared questions. If they
> bother to try.
cuhulin@webtv.net - 02 Oct 2007 16:41 GMT
TILT.Reminds me of when I used to play them pinball machines.BUMP! TILT!
cuhulin
cuhulin@webtv.net - 02 Oct 2007 16:48 GMT
Don't drink and drive.You might be tilting into a holding cell for a
while.
cuhulin
Kevin Bottorff - 02 Oct 2007 17:41 GMT
lethaldriver@gmail.com wrote in news:1191304333.315434.242270@
19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

> Okay if you say so.  If you say that I'm a troll then I guess I am
> one.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> want to make sure that the car doesn't roll over at relatively high
> speed cornering/drifting.

 In that case your exibiting a severe case of ignorance of the subject.
the idea that those are connected shows you have almost no understanding
of basic scientific stuff you should have learned in school.  KB

> I'd prefer a car that's drifting rather than rolling over.
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> but ANYONE can ask well-thought-out and prepared questions. If they
>> bother to try.

Signature

Thunder Snake #9
"Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

Zimmy - 03 Oct 2007 02:48 GMT
> My main concern is not with handling but more of with safety.  I just
> want to make sure that the car doesn't roll over at relatively high
> speed cornering/drifting.
>
> I'd prefer a car that's drifting rather than rolling over.

You're not the first, take a look at some of these:
http://www.tonyfoale.com/gallery/Trike/index.htm
or type tilting trikes into google.

I don't think its stupid. All the smart-a.ses here talking about centrifugal
force, if there was one physicist they'd tell you that centrifugal force
doesn't actually exist. There are only two forces here, the one that makes
the car/bike want to continue in a straight line (conservation of momentum)
and a centripetal force of the steering tyres and/or leaning rider towards
the centre of the circle. There is no radial outward force from the circle.

As for the trike, you need some mechanism to move most of the weight over
the inside wheel when turning ie what the passenger does in sidecar racing.
Easier said than done, good luck!

Z
* - 05 Oct 2007 12:07 GMT
Zimmy <x@y.z> wrote in article
<RxCMi.24793$c_1.7983@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...

> I don't think its stupid. All the smart-a.ses here talking about centrifugal
> force, if there was one physicist they'd tell you that centrifugal force
> doesn't actually exist.

It is defined as the inertial force that repels a body away from the axis
around which it rotates.

> There are only two forces here, the one that makes
> the car/bike want to continue in a straight line (conservation of momentum)

"Conservation of momentum"????

We like to call that one "inertia"

> and a centripetal force of the steering tyres and/or leaning rider towards
> the centre of the circle. There is no radial outward force from the circle.

See above definition.

If you believe there is a centripetal force - and there is - then you
pretty much MUST buy into the concept of centrifugal force.
Tegger - 05 Oct 2007 12:59 GMT
> Zimmy <x@y.z> wrote in article
> <RxCMi.24793$c_1.7983@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> It is defined as the inertial force that repels a body away from the
> axis around which it rotates.

Both of you seem to be right and wrong, but for different reasons:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00305.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force

Signature

Tegger

Zimmy - 08 Oct 2007 09:12 GMT
>> Zimmy <x@y.z> wrote in article
>> <RxCMi.24793$c_1.7983@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Both of you seem to be right and wrong, but for different reasons:

Both of these links seem to back up my point exactly:

> http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy00/phy00305.htm

"Centrifugal force is a virtual force.  It is not really a force. "

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_force

"In the reference frame that is rotating together with the car (a model
which those inside the car will often find natural), it looks as if a force
is pushing the passenger away from the center of the bend. This is a
fictitious force--not an actual force exerted by any other object. The
illusion occurs when the reference frame is the car, because that ignores
the car's acceleration."

Z
Steve - 06 Oct 2007 18:43 GMT
> Okay if you say so.  If you say that I'm a troll then I guess I am
> one.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I'd prefer a car that's drifting rather than rolling over.

As I said, go back and educate yourself. Which direction the body of the
car "tilts" has absolutely zero effect on the vehicle's tendency to roll
over. The only thing that you could do with the motion of the car
chassis to reduce the tendency to roll over would be to either lower the
center of gravity closer to the road surface, or to shift the center of
gravity toward the side of the car on the inside of the turn. Tilting
toward the inside of the curve doesn't necessarily do either one of
those things, and in fact might do just the opposite depending on how
you implement it. What's worse, it provides a deceptive feedback to the
driver.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 06 Oct 2007 02:51 GMT
> Can anyone please explain why a car tilts towards the outside of a
> circle unlike a motorcycle which tilts towards the inside of a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> What should I do to the car to make it lean/tilt towards the inside of
> a circle when cornering (like a motorcycle)?

Put your mother-in-law on the other side of the car? ;-)


Signature

Paul Hovnanian     mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Stupidity kills. But not nearly often enough.

 
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