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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2007transmission fluid in radiator/bad noises
Hello all...any advise/help will be highly appreciated.... I bought a 2000 Pontiac Grand Prix last year and have had no problems, untill now. For the last month or so it seems to sputter a little while excelerating. Once I reach a high speed, say 60-70, it levels out. It doesn't do this all the time, it comes and goes. Then this week my low coolant light came on. When I checked the radiator and resivore, it was full of water AND transmission fluid. The transmission fluid had water in it as well. I understand there is somekind of "bypass"? to cool the trans. fluid, so mabey this busted? But whats worse is the LOUD taptaptap comeing from my engine, I think? It is so bad, I have parked it. This happened all at once. A friend listened to it and said it sounded like a "rocker"? Could it be a coincidence that these two things happened at once, or could it be related.? I desperately need some advice befor I pick up the phone book and randomly pick a mechanic. I just moved here from out of state. I have one friend, who knows somebody, who knows somebody... Or should I take it to a GM dealer? Any ideas? Thanks in advance. > Hello all...any advise/help will be highly appreciated.... > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > excelerating. Once I reach a high speed, say 60-70, it levels out. It > doesn't do this all the time, it comes and goes. This seems unrelated to your other, major problem. > Then this week my low coolant light came on. When I checked the > radiator and resivore, it was full of water AND transmission fluid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > coincidence that these two things happened at once, or could it be > related.? There is likely a transmission fluid cooler in the radiator. That has apparently corroded and now the two fluids are mixing. The "taptaptap" is unrelated. > I desperately need some advice befor I pick up the phone book and > randomly pick a mechanic. I just moved here from out of state. I have > one friend, who knows somebody, who knows somebody... Or should I take > it to a GM dealer? > > Any ideas? Thanks in advance. You need a new radiator, no way around that. you probably need a new transmission too although if you feel like rolling the dice you could simply replace the radiator, have the cooling system and transmission flushed, and see what happens. Probably the transmission is on its way out though. Since you have at least one other problem as well, it might just be time to start shopping for a new (or different) car. The other possibility is that what you see as transmission fluid in your radiator is actually engine oil, and if you have water in your engine oil that will wipe out your bearings and certainly cause a tapping noise. That means engine rebuild time. I suppose a blown head gasket, if let go long enough, could cause the transmission cooler to corrode and now all three fluids are mixing and making an unholy sludge of everything. If this is the case the car probably isn't worth fixing. sorry to be the bearer of bad news... nate > > Hello all...any advise/help will be highly appreciated.... > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > nate Hi Nate, thanks for the input. Since I am still paying for the car, I am still clinging to hope of salvage. I am positive that it is trans fluid in radiator, not oil. There was no water in the oil either. I called GM dealer, just from the description they are suggesting cracked head or blown head and $thousands$ of repair. Crap. Do you know of a website or will a chiltons tell me what parts/rebuit engines are compatible with my engine? Thanks again. > Hi Nate, thanks for the input. Since I am still paying for the car, I > am still clinging to hope of salvage. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do you know of a website or will a chiltons tell me what parts/rebuit > engines are compatible with my engine? Thanks again. I really would doubt engine trouble would cause the coolant and transmission to swap fluids. That $tealership is bad news from the sounds of the rip off attempt. I would just go price out a new radiator. I also think I would just unhook the transmission lines where they go into the rad cooler right away and fill up the rad to observe if coolant does come out of the transmission cooler lines holes. Once that is fixed and the tranny is flushed, I would then address the noise if it still exists. Trannies can make strange noises when contaminated. You can hope that the engine didn't overheat to the blowing point, but a stuck lifter can happen easy enough when overheated. These can usually be convinced to release. Fixing the cause first is a good idea though. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) >Hi Nate, thanks for the input. Since I am still paying for the car, I >am still clinging to hope of salvage. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Do you know of a website or will a chiltons tell me what parts/rebuit >engines are compatible with my engine? Thanks again. There is nothing in your original post that would have me looking for a new engine just yet. The noise you describe could be a valve train issue but it could also be any of dozens of other things that can make noise. The worst part I see is water in the transmission. You need to get that out of there immediately if not sooner. The clutches in the transmission don't like water and will fail in short order when exposed to it. Replace the radiator and flush the cooling system and transmission first then get someone to listen to the engine noise and see what is going on there. Even after you do this there is a very strong possibility that the transmission will fail soon. Steve B. ask around friends and such were they go to to get repairs done (trustworthly) going to the dealer will cost a large fortune sounds like a major failure has occured that engine 3.8 litre is well known for intake gasket failure casuing coolant to enter the engine cylinders and causing hydroloc and bending valves and connecting rods and such > Hello all...any advise/help will be highly appreciated.... > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Any ideas? Thanks in advance. If there is a radiator shop in your town, they can repair your radiator (assuming the radiator has gone bad) as good as new.I think someone in this news group once posted a website for the best prices on radiators.Maybe it is, www.rockauto.com ? cuhulin Everyone, thank you for your tips/ suggestions. I'm having it towed to a shop tommarro (not the dealer). This means the water has set in my trans for 6 days. Either way I'm screwed, I'm sure. Seriously considering driving it down to the guetto...leaving the windows down and hoping for the best of the worst...depressed? yes. If you have your cat towed to a transmission shop, I reccomend Dr.Transmission.I have read some bad things in this newsgroup about AAMCO. cuhulin > Everyone, thank you for your tips/ suggestions. I'm having it towed to > a shop tommarro (not the dealer). This means the water has set in my > trans for 6 days. Either way I'm screwed, I'm sure. > Seriously considering driving it down to the guetto...leaving the > windows down and hoping for the best of the worst...depressed? yes. I wish you luck, let us know what they say when they have a chance to look at it. nate  Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel This is what the shop is saying: Car needs- valve cover gasket lower intake all 12 lifters and a "plummim?" gasket Quote of $824.31 This add up okay? I'm clueless. But okay with it not being $thousands$ The only friend I have in this state, happens to be a deisel mechanic and recommended his best friends mechanic shop for this job. This is their quote. Only thing that sounds fishy, is they are saying it is red radiotor fluid in the radiator, not transmission fluid. The red fluid was not there befor, and it has an oily consistancy. Why are they not listening to me and giving it a second look?? any more helpful advisve/ suggestions is much appreciated again...thanks. > This is what the shop is saying: > Car needs- > valve cover gasket > lower intake > all 12 lifters > and a "plummim?" gasket probably "plenum?" I'm guessing you have a two piece intake manifold? > Quote of $824.31 > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > listening to me and giving it a second look?? any more helpful advisve/ > suggestions is much appreciated again...thanks. Maybe orange? Dex-Cool? and the oiliness is coming from engine oil mixing with it turning it a darker color? I'm guessing they didn't find any water in the transmission fluid? have to wait for someone more familiar with this particular engine to reply to see whether the price is in line or not, but doesn't sound horrible to me just off the top of my head. Basically it sounds like what they're telling you is that engine oil and coolant have mixed due to a failed intake manifold gasket. They're going to replace that gasket and also all of the valve lifters while they're in there. The valve cover gasket is probably unrelated but you might as well have them replace that as well because it's really a small part of the job, and I assume it is leaking otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it. What this means to you is that *if you are lucky* this will fix your car up, but there still exists the possiblity of bearing damage due to the water and oil mixing, so there might be more work in your future but you won't know until they fix what they've quoted you on. good luck nate >>This is what the shop is saying: >>Car needs- [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Maybe orange? Dex-Cool? and the oiliness is coming from engine oil > mixing with it turning it a darker color? You're thinking EXACTLY what I'm thinking... GM v6 (probably running DexCool coolant), needs a plenum gasket and lower intake gasket, coolant suddenly looks oily (from engine oil getting into the coolant), and suddenly developed valve-train noise (likely from the DexCrap coolant getting in the oil and turning to grit). Pretty common problem on those engines, and I'll bet the transmission isn't involved at all. What I'd really worry about is that what GENERALLY fails after getting DexCrap in the oil is that the cam bearings seize up and snap a camshaft in two, not just the lifters gumming up. If we're on the right guessing-track, there may be a lot more trouble in the future for that engine.... You REALLY need to find out what that fluid is!!!!!! Is the 'red' fluid there in blobs or is it 'all' red? How in hell did the coolant get into the transmission?????? That is the Big one.... There is 'no' way the repairs mentioned have anything to do with coolant in the tranny! Sure you 'might' need what they say because you overheated your engine, 'but' that is addressing a 'symptom', not a cause. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > This is what the shop is saying: > Car needs- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > listening to me and giving it a second look?? any more helpful advisve/ > suggestions is much appreciated again...thanks. >This is what the shop is saying: >Car needs- [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and a "plummim?" gasket >Quote of $824.31 This is a result of taking a near bullet proof engine and *improving* it. GM put a composite intake manifold on the car and ran an egr pipe through it. Think plastic and heat.. you get the picture. They probably have roughly $400 in parts in the quote so the total price doesn't seem horrible. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about acceptable price will also answer. Be aware that if there was enough coolant in the engine to destroy the lifters the bearings could be toast as well. Cross your fingers, toes and anything else you have that will cross and pray that it comes out OK. >Only thing that sounds fishy, is they are saying it is red radiotor >fluid in the radiator, not transmission fluid. The red fluid was not >there befor, and it has an oily consistancy. Why are they not >listening to me and giving it a second look?? any more helpful advisve/ >suggestions is much appreciated again...thanks. Are you positive it wasn't red before? Antifreeze and transmission fluid will not mix so you get an icky mess with blobs of transmission fluid. Your car came with Dexcool in the radiator which was orange but there are red products out there. It may be ok but I don't think anyone can tell you for sure without seeing it. Steve B. > >This is what the shop is saying: > >Car needs- [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it. GM put a composite intake manifold on the car and ran an egr > pipe through it. Think plastic and heat.. you get the picture. Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen yet where it was revealed which V-6 engine is in this car. ?? The 3800 is the one with the composite upper plenum but when it fails, the lifters aren't necessarily affected unless the lower intake manifold gaskets are so far gone that coolant is dumped into the crankcase/lifter valley, and, a valve cover gasket isn't a necessary part of the intake job whereas it is on the 3100/3400 engines, but they only suffer gasket failure, no composite plenum to burn thru. > They probably have roughly $400 in parts in the quote so the total > price doesn't seem horrible. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable > about acceptable price will also answer. Price looks to be pretty much in line for the work described on a 3100/3400, 6+ hours labor and parts. > Be aware that if there was enough coolant in the engine to destroy the > lifters the bearings could be toast as well. Cross your fingers, toes > and anything else you have that will cross and pray that it comes out > OK. If it's Dexcool, being low silicate, the bearing damage may not be as severe -if- caught early enough vesus if there was a conventional high silicate coolant used. Aluminum bearings tolerate abrasion better than babbit coated bearings, I could be wrong but I believe GM was heavy into aluminum crank bearings by MY 2000. > >Only thing that sounds fishy, is they are saying it is red radiotor > >fluid in the radiator, not transmission fluid. The red fluid was not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > but there are red products out there. It may be ok but I don't think > anyone can tell you for sure without seeing it. Also worth mentioning is that _all_ ethylene glycol anti freezes feel oily to the touch, someone not familiar with Dexcool may think they have transmission fluid migrating into the coolant even though it isn't. Hello everyone. Thank you for your all of the advise, suggestions and encouragement. You guys were pretty much on the money with the tentitive diagnostics. Yes, Nate, it was orange-ish fluid in the radiator (it really did look red!). - Dex-Cool. and the oiliness WAS "coming from engine oil mixing with it turning it a darker color." No, they "didn't find any water in the transmission fluid". "Basically it sounds like what they're telling you is that engine oil and coolant have mixed due to a failed intake manifold gasket. They're going to replace that gasket and also all of the valve lifters while they're in there. The valve cover gasket is probably unrelated but you might as well have them replace that as well because it's really a small part of the job, and I assume it is leaking otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned it."-N8N This is exactly what was happening. 2 lifters were "stuck", so he replaced them all to save me comeing back in when the inevitable happened. "Perhaps the original guess or diagnosis that it was ATF in the coolant was wrong."- Comboverfish Yes. I was wrong. Very wrong. Needless to say, I am very happy to have my car running. It actually runs better now, than when I bought it last year. I am keeping in mind that other things could go wrong, but I am just going to cross my fingers and address the problems when they come, b/c my banking account is pretty muched wiped out 884.dollars later. I do feel pretty stupid about the transmission fluid dignoses. My mechanical hx consist of changing tires, oil, a starter, an alternater, oh, and a fuel pump. I did attempt to change my spark plugs (once), but after I pulled them all out I realized they were numbered. Yeah, for SOME reason. But hey I am a pretty smart nurse!! The anatomy of a car actually runs along the same philosophy as the human body. I often use this analogy to explain to my male patients whats going on in their body. Kinda puts it in perspective somehow. Anyway, Thanks again everyone. This board has proved to be quiet educational, so I think I'll stick around. -Candy Thanks for the follow-up! It is nice to know the outcome. I would recommend an oil change in the near future just to be sure all the coolant got flushed. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) > Hello everyone. Thank you for your all of the advise, suggestions and > encouragement. You guys were pretty much on the money with the [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > educational, so I think I'll stick around. > -Candy > Hello everyone. Thank you for your all of the advise, suggestions and > encouragement. You guys were pretty much on the money with the [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > educational, so I think I'll stick around. > -Candy Don't feel bad... Dex-Cool is unusual to someone who's only owned older cars with the typical green ethylene glycol stuff. Sounds like you got to learn some stuff while getting your car fixed, I just hope for your sake there was no bearing damage. You'll find out I suppose. Sounds like you've actually done more to your car than most people, and don't fear it - to paraphrase an old joke, it's easier to work on a car than a person because you can shut the car off :) I second Mike's advice to do your next oil change early just for insurance, and if the garage didn't mention it, check your receipt to make sure that they flushed the cooling system. good luck nate > Don't feel bad... Dex-Cool is unusual to someone who's only owned > older cars with the typical green ethylene glycol stuff. Ok, Nate... I hate to do this but I'm going to channel Dan Stern and get all strident and pedantic (old joke from the early rec.autos.tech days- you hadda be there...) DexCool and other OAT coolants are STILL ethylene glycol, just like the green coolants. So are the HOAT coolants like G-05. So are the "universal" coolants. Its just the anti-corrosion package that is different. The only commonplace coolants that are NOT EG are the "low tox" coolants and the waterless coolants, which are propylene glycol based. >I do feel pretty stupid about the transmission fluid dignoses. My >mechanical hx consist of changing tires, oil, a starter, an [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >human body. I often use this analogy to explain to my male patients >whats going on in their body. Kinda puts it in perspective somehow. Glad to hear all is well again! You shouldn't feel stupid about the transmission fluid thing... WE have all done similar things before. Making mistakes is just part of the learning process, especially when this isn't what you do for a living. To me the only stupid mistake is the one you make twice (and trust me I can think of more than one of those that I have made). Steve B. > Hello everyone. Thank you for your all of the advise, suggestions and > encouragement. You guys were pretty much on the money with the > tentitive diagnostics. Snip > I do feel pretty stupid about the transmission fluid dignoses. My > mechanical hx consist of changing tires, oil, a starter, an [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > educational, so I think I'll stick around. > -Candy What? You made a mistake? NAA? You "Had a learning impairment." Find me someone who has never made a mistake and I'll show you a LIAR. I always tell folks that it is real easy to make a mistake, but it can be hard to learn from them. So what automotive analogy do you use for a guy who has E.D.? Stick around. It gets interesting at times but once you can sort the wheat from the chaff you will find a lot of help. It is also a great place to get different perspectives on problems if your stuck. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York BHAA haa haa...Good One....-C > So what automotive analogy do you use for a guy who has E.D.? Collapsed lifters. Low oil pressure. Broken driveshaft. Flat tire. ;-) > This is what the shop is saying: > Car needs- [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > listening to me and giving it a second look?? any more helpful advisve/ > suggestions is much appreciated again...thanks. Nate's explanation is 100% plausible. Dexcool, when viewed inside an opaque container (like your radiator), can look a little reddish compared to when you pour it out in the open. Perhaps the original guess or diagnosis that it was ATF in the coolant was wrong. Also, how was it determined that "water" was in the transaxle? Whatever kind of mineral oil has made it into your cooling system, I hope the eventual repair includes a total system flush with chemical to disolve and remove most of that oil. The valve lifters replacement could be to address the tapping noise you are hearing. Perhaps coolant contamination has caused a lifter to cavitate, as a lack of proper/correct oil to the lifters could cause that. Unfortunately, no matter how short a period that coolant was in the engine oil, it will cause some amount of bearing etching. If it is left in the oil long enough your crank and cam bearings can fail, causing major engine damage. You either have the 3.1 (known for intake gasket failure) or the 3.8 (known for upper intake plenum failure but I don't know what year range). I would suspect that you have the 3.1 given the diagnosis, but that's just edu-speculation. Toyota MDT in MO |
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