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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2007Premier Toyota Service
Well, I got the Camry's oil changed today after only 2,800 miles. Had the Toyota dealership dump out the Mobil 1 and replace it with Pennzoil Platinum. I also had'em replace the almost 2-year-old cabin filter, which was dirty (cost: $30). The engine air filter was also replaced ($27--hey, it's only $17 at ToyotaPartsAndService.com). I stood near the tech to watch the process. When he pulled out the engine air filter, I peered into the car's air housing, and noticed a couple dirty somethings in there, but he didn't clean the housing out. The Toyota tech just pulled out the old, dirty engine air filter and replaced it with a new one. I guess I can expect a 30 percent increase in engine wear for a little while, according to Ed's research paper reference about improper air filter replacement procedures :-( The tires were rotated, but no special attention seemed to be payed to torque measurement. The tech just used an automatic ratchet, but didn't seem to carefully measure the level of torque applied to the nuts and bolts. Oh well, at least he did tighten each wheel's set in a star pattern. I may do this stuff myself. I'm not really delighted that whatever I saw in the air filter housing musta got sucked into the engine on start-up. Plus no attention was payed to exact torque. Would you guys buy a GM Goodwrench 2-ton hydraulic floor jack (5 inches to 13 inches) or an A.C. Delco 2-ton hydraulic floor jack (5 inches to 14 inches)? One lifts a maximum of 13 inches, I guess, and the other 14 inches. I can't see how one inch could make much of a difference, so I suppose the proper question to ask is which do you think will be a better quality floor jack: GM Goodwrench or A.C. Delco > Well, I got the Camry's oil changed today after only > 2,800 miles. Had the Toyota dealership dump out the > Mobil 1 and replace it with Pennzoil Platinum. Seems you've mentioned something recently about oil... > I also had'em replace the almost 2-year-old cabin > filter, which was dirty (cost: $30). The engine air filter > was also replaced ($27--hey, it's only $17 at > ToyotaPartsAndService.com). $27 sounds a little gouge-y. A 17801-0H010 runs about $17 - $18 list. I guess that extra $9 pays for the "free labor" to install. > I stood near the tech to watch the process. I'm sure he was thrilled. What do you do for a living, and assuming the answer isn't "make pizza", do you have customers watch over your shoulder as you work? > When he > pulled out the engine air filter, I peered into the car's > air housing, and noticed a couple dirty somethings in there, > but he didn't clean the housing out. The Toyota tech > just pulled out the old, dirty engine air filter and > replaced it with a new one. I'm afraid that if you want that level of detail you will have to service your car personally. Only the most dedicated of mechanics would clean that out considering the job is a waiter oil change and free filter replacement, and I'm guessing you scored a janitor/lube tech, not a mechanic. > The tires were rotated, but no special attention > seemed to be payed to torque measurement. The tech > just used an automatic ratchet, but didn't seem to > carefully measure the level of torque applied to the > nuts and bolts. Oh well, at least he did tighten > each wheel's set in a star pattern. Janitor/lube tech with you watching over his shoulder -- not a good combination. Personally, my first response to an unauthorized onlooker is to offer them my camera to take a picture. Then I explain that he may not be in the shop without service manager approval. I do empathize with the customer, possibly more than anyone I know, but since I do my job properly I have no fear that the customer would ever be upset with the finished product. Product quality can only get worse with someone watching over me; I won't have it. The customer is welcome to come out for an up close demonstration of his vehicle's problems and proposed repair options, but he must leave before I begin work. > I may do this stuff myself. I'm not really > delighted that whatever I saw in the air filter housing > musta got sucked into the engine on start-up. Plus > no attention was payed to exact torque. Actually, the filter would stop that junk. Air travels upward from the body-mounted filter housing through the filter into the engine on your Camry. If the particles were big enough for you to see then they'll get stopped by the filter. The correct reason for removing them during a filter replacement is to keep the new filter from getting unnecessarily restricted right off the bat. Reduced air flow is a different problem than engine contamination. BTW, "exact torque" on two 6mm X 1mm air filter housing screws? Even I am not that anal! Trust me, an experienced hand can loosen/tighten those two bolts hundreds of times over decades of salt and seasonal changes with nary a problem. In case it matters, the torque spec is 44 in/lbs. The cheapest acceptibly accurate torque wrench in that range -that I would recommend- costs about $75, a beam model. Ah, just go ahead, live life on the edge and tighten those bolts by hand; it's very freeing, not to mention $75 cheaper! > Would you guys buy a GM Goodwrench 2-ton hydraulic floor jack > (5 inches to 13 inches) or an A.C. Delco 2-ton hydraulic [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > think will be a better quality floor jack: GM Goodwrench > or A.C. Delco Try the 5" to 19" range found on any medium frame 2 1/4 ton jack available from places like Harbor Freight, Cummins Tools, Sears, Sams, etc for about $60 to $90. Best return on investment you'll ever make if you do your own preventative maintenance. Lightly used, these puppies will last indefinitely. All of the DIY-affordable models are imports anyway, so take your pick. Just the larger saddle is worth the slight extra cost of the typical tiny and underdesigned 14" jack. Toyota MDT in MO > $27 sounds a little gouge-y. A 17801-0H010 runs about $17 - $18 > list. I guess that extra $9 pays for the "free labor" to install. ======== Free labor to install? [chuckle] There was no free labor to install the engine and cabin air filters. I didn't mind that at all, though. However, I did get charged $1.75 for miscellaneous shop supplies, which I guess was the cup's worth of windshield washer fluid they put in [chuckle]. By the way, I hope the tech gets to keep the full amount of the labor charge. I hope part of it isn't kicked back to the dealership? > By the way, I hope the tech gets to keep the full amount > of the labor charge. I hope part of it isn't kicked back > to the dealership? The janitor that worked on your car likely gets a straight hourly wage, possibly with a small performance incentive. You are kidding, right? Even the mechanics get paid flatrate, which is better than hourly, but unless they buy their own building/lot/utilities/licenses/ insurances/advertising/etc, the majority of the labor will go to the dealership. Toyota MDT in MO P.S. you never mentioned what job it is you do while people watch over you... > P.S. you never mentioned what job it is you do while people watch over_ > you... ======== Sorry, but I live in a small town. If I told you what I do, anyone could easily find out where I work by simply using maps.google.com and searching businesses. > > P.S. you never mentioned what job it is you do while people watch over_ > > you... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I do, anyone could easily find out where I work by > simply using maps.google.com and searching businesses. OK, but you drive an import. How many import owners can there be in small town America? :-) I will find you and watch you while you work. :-) Toyota MDT in MO >> > P.S. you never mentioned what job it is you do while people watch >> > over_ you... [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >:-) I think you'll find it a bit dull watching Built_Well muck out those stables...  SignatureTegger > I think you'll find it a bit dull watching Built_Well muck out > those stables... ======== You seem to have some kind of problem, Tegger. I don't want to engage in verbal combat with you. However, I will if you insist. > >> > P.S. you never mentioned what job it is you do while people watch > >> > over_ you... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I think you'll find it a bit dull watching Built_Well muck out > those stables... I wasn't going in that direction, LOL. I don't care what he/she or anyone does for a living. It would have made good discussion to have an honest answer to my question from someone that admits to having closely watched a worker in an environment where such practice is usually not allowed, let alone desired. I don't think people realize that the worker might be nervous or offended by it until the proverbial shoe is placed on the proverbial other foot. A lot of it boils down to differing personalities too... Toyota MDT in MO >> I think you'll find it a bit dull watching Built_Well muck out >> those stables... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > proverbial shoe is placed on the proverbial other foot. A lot of it > boils down to differing personalities too... Maybe he works at Subway making sandwiches. They're used to being watched, there. SignatureTegger Say, I saw a torque wrench at O'Reilly Auto Parts today for $25. Do ya think it would be accurate? Saw a nice 2.5-ton low-profile floor jack at Walmart today from a company called Black Jack (not Black And Decker) for $30, and it came with its own carrying case! This isn't a 2-ton jack, but a 2.5-tonner. 14.xx-inch max. If you really wanna go cheap, Walmart has a 13-inch, 2-ton floor jack for $14.85 (that's the GM Goodwrench I mentioned yesterday). Walmart doesn't sell torque wrenches ;-) But they do sell two jack stands for only $10. Everyone else wants $20. Did buy a 10 millimeter socket from AutoZone today to unscrew the air filter's housing ($2.xx). Napa wanted $3.xx. >> Well, I got the Camry's oil changed today after only >> 2,800 miles. Had the Toyota dealership dump out the [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >problems and proposed repair options, but he must leave before I begin >work. Just out of curiosity, ....you are entitled to not want to be watched,.... but is there any particular reason it bothers you or is it an "it just does" sort of thing? When I have my cars worked on at a shop I try not to be a vulture but I do like to take a peek from time to time to see if my baby is being abused. >> I may do this stuff myself. I'm not really >> delighted that whatever I saw in the air filter housing [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Toyota MDT in MO > Just out of curiosity, ....you are entitled to not want to be > watched,.... but is there any particular reason it bothers you or is > it an "it just does" sort of thing? When I have my cars worked on at > a shop I try not to be a vulture but I do like to take a peek from > time to time to see if my baby is being abused. I never thought about it before as it seems pretty obvious (to me). The semi-condensed long answer is, short of taking the risk of opening my own business, I will always be significantly underpaid for my high level of ability, self motivated continuing education and professionalism. In this business, often the best get paid worse than the worst, so I guess a 'chip-on-the-shoulder' type mentality has me somewhat jaded already. I don't like someone representing the idea that I am not to be trusted (watching me) when nothing could be further from the truth. All they are doing is increasing the chance I will make a physical mistake due to being nervous about being watched. It is against any sane shop's policy to have customers in the work area anyway, so that also plays into my feeling on the subject. I've never claimed to be "P.C." or to have good people skills :-) I could go on, but I'd rather ask you A) how often do customers stand and watch you the entire time you are working for them, B) would/do you enjoy it, C) is it more or less productive, and D) do you think your work quality would go up or down in your particular case? Toyota MDT in MO >> Just out of curiosity, ....you are entitled to not want to be >> watched,.... but is there any particular reason it bothers you or is [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Toyota MDT in MO I've never had that kind of job so I don't really know. >>> Just out of curiosity, ....you are entitled to not want to be >>> watched,.... but is there any particular reason it bothers you or is [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >I've never had that kind of job so I don't really know. He didn't ask if you work in this kind of job he asked how you feel about someone standing over your shoulder watching you work in regards to any job. Il mittente di questo messaggio|The sender address of this non corrisponde ad un utente |message is not related to a real reale ma all'indirizzo fittizio|person but to a fake address of an di un sistema anonimizzatore |anonymous system Per maggiori informazioni |For more info https://www.mixmaster.it >>>> Just out of curiosity, ....you are entitled to not want to be >>>> watched,.... but is there any particular reason it bothers you or is [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >someone standing over your shoulder watching you work in regards to any >job. I'm not sure it makes sense in the context of his question.... my job is part office and part field. If they came to me to design something for them I don't know what they would "watch" me do other then seeing me tap on computer keys or make notes on a legal pad, or look up stuff in a book or file. It wouldn't bother me too much but it would make it hard to pick my nose. In the field they would have to tail me in their car till I got to the work location and then they's just be watching me walk around taking pictures and writing stuff down. Again, not really a problem for me but not sure why they would bother, it's jut not the same as when someone is actually working on a $30K hunk of something you own. Ashton Crusher <demi@moore.net> wrote in article <rroii3putt56hqagvj76hjbbr2i863cjrq@4ax.com>... > >> Just out of curiosity, ....you are entitled to not want to be > >> watched,.... but is there any particular reason it bothers you or is [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > I've never had that kind of job so I don't really know. Sign on my shop wall.......... LABOR RATES $50.00 per hour $75.00 per hour if you Watch. $100.00 per hour if you Help! $25.00 per hour surcharge if you attempted the job on your own prior to bringing it here. "Built_Well" <built_well_toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:470c1730$0$68466 > The tires were rotated, but no special attention > seemed to be payed to torque measurement. The tech > just used an automatic ratchet, but didn't seem to > carefully measure the level of torque applied to the > nuts and bolts. Oh well, at least he did tighten > each wheel's set in a star pattern. Took our Avalon for its first (5000 mi) service last week. I asked the service writer IF they used torque wrenches to torque the lug nuts and he said no, they use impact wrenches with torque stix. I requested that they use a proper torque wrench, and it was written into the service request. This oil change, filter, and tire rotation cost me $43.11. A pretty good deal, I think. >Well, I got the Camry's oil changed today after only >2,800 miles. Had the Toyota dealership dump out the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >just pulled out the old, dirty engine air filter and >replaced it with a new one. The stuff you saw was most likely just fuzzy stuff that will not go anywhere and will still be there next time the filter is changed. It made it thru the first filter so it must be pretty small stuff. >I guess I can expect a 30 percent increase in engine >wear for a little while, according to Ed's research paper [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >nuts and bolts. Oh well, at least he did tighten >each wheel's set in a star pattern. They probably used a torque stick on the air hammer. There's a lot of discussion about how to do the lug nut tightening thing properly. I've got a cheap impact wrench and at max air pressure the most it can do on lug nuts is 100 ft-lbs so I stopped checking with a torque wrench. I just do the star pattern and everything has been fine - no warped rotors. >I may do this stuff myself. I'm not really >delighted that whatever I saw in the air filter housing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >think will be a better quality floor jack: GM Goodwrench >or A.C. Delco If get teh one with the widest body and/or saddle if there is any difference. Also, is there any difference in the fully lowered height? I discovered that I couldn't even get my floor jack under my 64 T-bird when it had a flat tire!! At that point the light bulb went on in my head and I realized why these old cars had bumper jacks !! >> The tires were rotated, but no special attention >> seemed to be payed to torque measurement. The tech [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I just do the star pattern and everything has been fine - no warped > rotors. ======== Thanks for the reassuring words about not warping the rotors even with 100 foot-pounds of torque being applied to the wheel's lug nuts. At least, I think that's what you're saying? The '06 Camry manual calls for 76 foot-pounds (ft-lbf) of torque being applied, which seems a lot less than 100. If my dealer's tech torqued'em 100 ft-lbs, instead of 76, I wouldn't say that's premiere service. Do you think the $25 torque wrench at O'Reilly Auto Parts is accurate enough? That's the only one I saw there. Will check AutoZone tomorrow. "Built_Well" <built_well_toyota@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:470dba56$0$90453 > Thanks for the reassuring words about not warping the rotors > even with 100 foot-pounds of torque being applied to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > O'Reilly Auto Parts is accurate enough? That's the only one I saw > there. Will check AutoZone tomorrow. Some impact wrenches can put up a heck of a lot more than 100 lb-ft. I have seen some that can literally shear off a lug bolt. TorqStix dont always solve the problem either. I had two sets of front rotors warped at Discount Tire with their damn torque sticks. A cheap torque wrench is better than no torque wrench. If you are off by 5 pounds or so (between 50 and 100 lb-ft) , what the heck as long as the tightening is uniform. Use the star tightening sequence. > On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:05:59 -0500, Built_Well > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > anywhere and will still be there next time the filter is changed. It > made it thru the first filter so it must be pretty small stuff. As mentioned in my last post to Built_Well, this "stuff" did not make it's way through the filter. You wouldn't be able to see individual particles that could pass through a pleated paper automotive filter. Toyota MDT in MO > I may do this stuff myself. I'm not really > delighted that whatever I saw in the air filter housing > musta got sucked into the engine on start-up. Plus > no attention was payed to exact torque. That means they are setting you up for the latest scam. They expect you to come back complaining of pulsing brakes and their diagnoses will be warped rotors so you now need a full brake job... > Would you guys buy a GM Goodwrench 2-ton hydraulic floor jack > (5 inches to 13 inches) or an A.C. Delco 2-ton hydraulic [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > think will be a better quality floor jack: GM Goodwrench > or A.C. Delco You need to be sure you can 'use' a floor jack on your vehicle. Some don't have any real safe places to jack from if you are not using the factory jack. Lots have no place to slide a cheap floor jack 'under' if you have a flat tire. Others will have a slot or fitting that will crush under the weight of a floor jack's push. As far as jack quality goes, they both are likely made in China... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's - Gone to the rust pile... Canadian Off Road Trips Photos: Non members can still view! Jan/06 http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2115147590 (More Off Road album links at bottom of the view page) |
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