Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
HomeAnnouncements
Discussion Groups
By Brand
BMWChevroletDodgeFordGMHondaLexusMercedes-BenzNissanPeugeotToyotaVolkswagenOther Brands
By Topic
4x4 CarsRVsDrivingMaintenance & RepairCar AudioCollectible Cars
Country Specific
Australian ForumsUK Forums
ArticlesAuto InsuranceBuyingCars & TechnologyMaintenanceMiscellaneousSafety
DMV Resources
Related Topics
MotorcyclesBoatsMore Topics ...

Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

further thoughts on spark plugs, coolant sensors and engine starting

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
kohlrabi_croce@hotmail.com - 26 Oct 2007 16:45 GMT
hi all,

I've been doing some further thinking about it, and
I'm just having some thoughts about how engines work.....

Mechanic #4, the one who did the work, told me that the problem
with the bad spark plugs was what was causing the engine to be
flooded with gas, which caused the rings to become washed.  
When I heard that, I wasn't so sure it made sense, because the
spark plugs basically just provide the "spark", right?

When I heard that If the sensor tells the computer the engine is
the wrong  temperature then it gets the wrong amount of gas at
startup, I thought that was probably what caused it, not the bad
spark plugs.

So mechanic #4 told me he had to clean the gasoline out
of the engine (isn't that weird - engines are supposed to have
gasoline in them), but that the rings were still ok. But then I
looked at the invoice, and they don;t have any such kind
of labor work listed on there.  All it says is: replace ignition
cable set, replace all six spark plugs. That's in addition to
the diagnosis.  So:  what if that is all they did - what if that was
what it needed to be able to get it to start again, even though
it still doesn't start without problems?

Hmm..maybe a better to put it would be:  could the coolant
temp sensor cause the engine to become so flooded that it
doesn't start? Or could the spark plugs cause that, though I
don;t see how?  Or was the mechanic just telling me something
he thought I would buy?

I'm wondering, because I'm working on formulating my complaint
against this guy.

TIA!

PS the car is working gingerly.  I am trying to be real easy on it
until the part & book arrive.
aarcuda69062 - 26 Oct 2007 17:44 GMT
> hi all,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> When I heard that, I wasn't so sure it made sense, because the
> spark plugs basically just provide the "spark", right?

Spark plugs are where the spark occurs, they don't necessarily
"provide" the spark, that is the job of the ignition coil.
If there is no spark to ignite the fuel, then too much fuel can
accumulate in the cylinder, if enough fuel accumulates, the
piston rings are washed by the fuel and compression is lost.

> When I heard that If the sensor tells the computer the engine is
> the wrong  temperature then it gets the wrong amount of gas at
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of the engine (isn't that weird - engines are supposed to have
> gasoline in them),

Yes, engines are supposed to have gasoline in them, in the
correct place(s) in the correct quantities.

> but that the rings were still ok.

Caught early enough.

> But then I
> looked at the invoice, and they don;t have any such kind
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> what it needed to be able to get it to start again, even though
> it still doesn't start without problems?

Might be all he needed to do was blow out the cylinders with
compressed air once the old spark plugs were removed as pert of
the service you received.
In extreme cases where gasoline washes the piston rings, once
blown dry, the cylinders may need a few squirts of oil to restore
a compression seal.

> Hmm..maybe a better to put it would be:  could the coolant
> temp sensor cause the engine to become so flooded that it
> doesn't start?

Absolutely.
IIRC, this is a Saturn, the coolant sensor and its connector are
really rinky-dink compared to what is typically used on other GM
vehicles.

> Or could the spark plugs cause that,

Absolutely.  Used to be very common back when carburetors
populated the vehicle fleet.  Less common now but it still
happens in cases of neglect or when the wrong spark plugs are
used.

> though I
> don;t see how?  

Gasoline is a very strong solvent, too much raw gasoline in a
cylinder will wash the oil off of the piston rings resulting in
low or no compression.

> Or was the mechanic just telling me something
> he thought I would buy?

Then why wouldn't he sell you; new spark plugs, ignition wires
-and- a coolant sensor and connector?

> I'm wondering, because I'm working on formulating my complaint
> against this guy.

I'm confused...  are you saying that he charged you for spark
plugs and wires and did NOT install them?
kohlrabi_croce@hotmail.com - 26 Oct 2007 18:11 GMT
>> hi all,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>blown dry, the cylinders may need a few squirts of oil to restore
>a compression seal.

And I don;t know for sure that he did that, but I guess it would be
reasonable to assume it.

>> Hmm..maybe a better to put it would be:  could the coolant
>> temp sensor cause the engine to become so flooded that it
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>really rinky-dink compared to what is typically used on other GM
>vehicles.

ok good to know.

>> Or could the spark plugs cause that,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Then why wouldn't he sell you; new spark plugs, ignition wires
>-and- a coolant sensor and connector?

I told him some of the things other mechancs said about it,
but he didn't want to see all the previous diagnosis, because
he said, it would just piss him off.  He though that apprently he
would do just fine making his own diagnosis, and that he would
do a better job of it than any other mechanic that came before him.

Well, apparently not!   I probably did  mention the coolant temp
sensor, I don't recall now.  Apparenlty he did not see fit to check
that out himself.

>> I'm wondering, because I'm working on formulating my complaint
>> against this guy.
>
>I'm confused...  are you saying that he charged you for spark
>plugs and wires and did NOT install them?

Er, sorry, he did install the spark plugs and wires.  I was trying
to figure out whether or not his claim that he "cleaned the gasoline
out of the engine" made any sense, especially considering he
did not list that piece of labor on the invoice. Maybe you're
right, maybe all he did was use some compressed air, in which
case maybe I have to be worried about the cylinders having
proper lubrication with oil.
kohlrabi_croce@hotmail.com - 26 Oct 2007 19:04 GMT
>Might be all he needed to do was blow out the cylinders with
>compressed air once the old spark plugs were removed as pert of
>the service you received.
>In extreme cases where gasoline washes the piston rings, once
>blown dry, the cylinders may need a few squirts of oil to restore
>a compression seal.

Hm, this makes sense to me actually, because if they had
done more  than just blow some air in there, they sure would
have charge me a bunch of money for that, and they would
have listed it as a  separate labor service on the invoice.

makes a lot of sense.

Thanks very much for the info!
aarcuda69062 - 27 Oct 2007 00:21 GMT
> Hm, this makes sense to me actually, because if they had
> done more  than just blow some air in there, they sure would
> have charge me a bunch of money for that, and they would
> have listed it as a  separate labor service on the invoice.

FYI, there really isn't anything else a mechanic can do to dry
out the cylinder if it was flooded with gasoline.

> makes a lot of sense.
>
> Thanks very much for the info!

You're welcome.

bear in mind, i haven't seen the parts in question but you need
to understand that when faced with a driveability problem, the
mechanic needs to restore certain wear items to 'as new'
condition in order to rule them out as a cause of the problem.
If your spark plugs and ignition wires were aged, it often costs
less money and represents a better value to replace them anyway
than it does to perform a battery of test procedures to determine
their condition.
kohlrabi_croce@hotmail.com - 27 Oct 2007 01:32 GMT
>> Hm, this makes sense to me actually, because if they had
>> done more  than just blow some air in there, they sure would
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>FYI, there really isn't anything else a mechanic can do to dry
>out the cylinder if it was flooded with gasoline.

Thank you, obviously  that confirms it even  more.  

>> makes a lot of sense.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>than it does to perform a battery of test procedures to determine
>their condition.

Well......I don;t have a problem with him replacing that stuff, I do
have a problem with him charging me as much as he did, and
then going : ok, problem solved!  and taking 3 days for the
the "diagnosis," and two more days on top of that to do it, ,
and charging me 30% more than even the dealership did
just for the diagnosis, and then not even figuring out that
there was more going on than just the spark plugs and
cables, all the while having the attitude that he could figure
it out better than any other mechanic that came before him.

I don't think so.

I had been telling everyone I took it to the spark plugs
most likely needed to be replaced anyway.

I udnerstand where you're coming from, but I don;t think
I got a good value for my money.  Since I am now out
of it, I am reduced to trying to do it myself.

If I took it back to him, maybe he could diagnose
it right without charging me for it because he should
have in the first place, but I'd still have to pay him
for further repairs because it's not his fault other
stuff is broke as well.  It's just his fault he didn;t find it,
and let me go out of there with a half-fixed car.

So I will try to learn how to do it and if it works it
will be great, and then I'll understand the joys
of relying on myself :).

Hey....I already learned how to build my own computer
a few times, so why not.....hehe.
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.