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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2007Ticking/lack of power
Hi, I posted a few weeks back about my Escort that I overheated and burnt a valve. As the pistons and cylinder walls seemed fine, I checked the block with a straight edge, and bought a rebuilt head to install. I installed a new head gasket/head bolts, torqued everything down, reconnected everything and started it up. At idle it had a light ticking noise, and was blowing some white smoke out the exhaust. I took it for a ride on the freeway and the ticking gradually got louder, and I couldn't get the car over 60mph. When I got off the freeway it was ticking very loudly and idling rough. The white smoke at the exhaust was gone. I can't see anything arcing, and it has new plugs and wires. I checked the vacuum lines and all seems fine. The noise seems to be coming from around the intake manifold. The car wasn't overheating and all fluid levels (oil/coolant) are fine. Any clues? Thanks. On Oct 28, 8:12 pm, kb1...@gmail.com wrote: > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Thanks. White smoke is probably from coolant remaining in the exaust from the previous failure, particularly in the converter and muffler. I would suspect a broken or loose/fallen off rocker, broken rocker stud, or loose/cocked valve seat issue. Break out the compression and leakdown gauges again... Toyota MDT in MO >I posted a few weeks back about my Escort that I overheated and burnt >a valve. As the pistons and cylinder walls seemed fine, I checked the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >coming from around the intake manifold. The car wasn't overheating >and all fluid levels (oil/coolant) are fine. Any clues? Are you sure you lined the notches on the timing belt up properly? Check and make sure. --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Are you sure you lined the notches on the timing belt up properly? > Check and make sure. > --scott To be honest, I had a hard time setting the timing. There is a decent amount of play in the timing belt (1/4-1/2" deflection), and the belt kept slipping as I tried to get tension on the side opposite the tensioner. I will double check the marks as soon as I get a chance. It is a spring-loaded tensioner that is supposed to be released, spring forces tension on belt, spin the engine twice, then tighten it in place. Only problem is, when I spin the engine twice, the belt sometimes gets slack and slips. I have had it running before by tensioning it the opposite way (tensioner behind belt, then force tensioner over against spring with prybar and lock it in place - kind of like the serpentine belt). I am wondering if it would be okay to do it that way - this would let me put adequate tension on the belt and keep it from slipping. Thanks and hopefully I'll be getting it back on the road soon! Doug On Oct 29, 4:35 pm, kb1...@gmail.com wrote: > > Are you sure you lined the notches on the timing belt up properly? > > Check and make sure. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Doug A 1996 may have the eccentric tensioner with one holddown bolt. I'm familiar with the older style of sliding tensioner block assembly that is locked down with two 10mm head bolts. Assuming you have the eccentric style: Reinstall the crank bolt tight enough that it won't back off under pressure. Have someone hold the crank with a 19mm combination wrench or somehow otherwise fix the crank in place. Simultaneously turn the cam pulley in the direction that takes up slack (counterclockwise, while looking at it over the passenger fender), loosen the tensioner lock bolt, lightly pry on the tensioner pulley by hand or small prybar, retighten the bolt and you should be done. Make sure it doesn't feel too loose or too tight at any point around two complete crank revolutions. There will be more slack at four points where the valve springs are pressuring the cam to spin forward, as long as it isn't excessive then that's normal. At what point are you going to see whether there is a rocker, valve, seat or spring issue? What do you think is causing the loud ticking noise? Certainly not a timing belt off one tooth... BTW, don't go turning the crank or cam with the belt off or out of time as this is an interference engine. Another unlikely but valid point is to make sure you got the right belt design. The teeth on the belt should have a matching profile to the gear teeth, and there are several different varieties out there, possibly even in use on different years of 1.9 (I don't know off hand). If you try to put a "square" toothed belt on "half-round" pulleys or vice versa, it will wear quickly, not to mention that it won't adjust properly. Toyota MDT in MO 1996 1.9L model isn't an interference from what I've read. I lost the timing belt on the highway about a month ago and replaced it with no valve damage. I pulled the valve cover off tonight and found that the rocker arm on the #3 cylinder exhaust valve had come off. That was the ticking noise. I put it back on and tightened it to 20 ft-lbs as the Haynes book says. I also found that all the other rocker arm bolts were loose and needed to be torqued down. Apparently the shop that put the head together didn't tighten the bolts down properly. Loud ticking is now gone and it pulls past 80 mph on the freeway with no problem. I do have a light ticking at idle that goes away as I open the throttle (or the engine gets so loud that I can't hear it anymore). I don't think those rockers can be adjusted, at least not as far as I know. It sounds like my 2-cylinder motorcycle engine when running, with the light (normal) valve clatter. I'll keep an eye on it but it seems fine. Will fix that timing belt tomorrow, I don't like the slack it has on it. Thanks for the tips on setting the tensioner. Doug >1996 1.9L model isn't an interference from what I've read. I lost the >timing belt on the highway about a month ago and replaced it with no >valve damage. That's good. Earlier Escorts were notorious for poor timing belt life and engines that quickly got torn up when timing was lost. >I pulled the valve cover off tonight and found that the rocker arm on >the #3 cylinder exhaust valve had come off. That was the ticking >noise. I put it back on and tightened it to 20 ft-lbs as the Haynes >book says. I also found that all the other rocker arm bolts were >loose and needed to be torqued down. Apparently the shop that put the >head together didn't tighten the bolts down properly. Uh-oh. That's bad, because it's a sign that you may now have OTHER sloppy work to deal with. Call the guys up and let them know you are displeased with this. >Loud ticking is now gone and it pulls past 80 mph on the freeway with >no problem. I do have a light ticking at idle that goes away as I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >running, with the light (normal) valve clatter. I'll keep an eye on >it but it seems fine. How did the previous engine sound? --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." On Oct 29, 9:56 pm, kb1...@gmail.com wrote: > 1996 1.9L model isn't an interference from what I've read. I lost the > timing belt on the highway about a month ago and replaced it with no > valve damage. There's a lot of misinformation regarding interference vs non in the auto engine world. I'll stick with my experience and available data on the matter. As F-ed up as your car has been lately, it's possible that you didn't notice the power loss or poor idle quality that results from minor valve damage. Every time a cam slips while driving the results are a little bit different. Some cars are massive valve crashers, while others like yours are literally 'hit or miss'. > I pulled the valve cover off tonight and found that the rocker arm on > the #3 cylinder exhaust valve had come off. That was the ticking > noise. I put it back on and tightened it to 20 ft-lbs as the Haynes > book says. I also found that all the other rocker arm bolts were > loose and needed to be torqued down. Apparently the shop that put the > head together didn't tighten the bolts down properly. As John Maden would say, "boom!". > Loud ticking is now gone and it pulls past 80 mph on the freeway with > no problem. I do have a light ticking at idle that goes away as I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > running, with the light (normal) valve clatter. I'll keep an eye on > it but it seems fine. I don't remember off hand what your adjustment method is, but it isn't at the rocker nut like on older, similar rocker stud designs. There may be varying sized parts made available through Ford to adjust if needed. Some Ford pushrod engines had various length service replacement pushrods, for example. > Will fix that timing belt tomorrow, I don't like the slack it has on > it. Thanks for the tips on setting the tensioner. You're welcome. Toyota MDT in MO > On Oct 29, 9:56 pm, kb1...@gmail.com wrote: > > 1996 1.9L model isn't an interference from what I've read. I lost the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > There's a lot of misinformation regarding interference vs non in the > auto engine world. One thing to consider in this case is if you leave the rocker arms loose so that the valves open very little then that can turn a interference engine into a noninterference engine. That is, it would mean that turning the cam with pistons at TDC wouldn't risk damaging valves. -jim >I'll stick with my experience and available data > on the matter. As F-ed up as your car has been lately, it's possible [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Toyota MDT in MO > > On Oct 29, 9:56 pm, kb1...@gmail.com wrote: > > > 1996 1.9L model isn't an interference from what I've read. I lost the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > engine into a noninterference engine. That is, it would mean that > turning the cam with pistons at TDC wouldn't risk damaging valves. True in the sense that it could be done before deliberately turning the shafts out of sync to avoid damage. I'm assuming though that you mean it is an explanation why he may not have bent valves when his tbelt broke. I think the OP put a tbelt on before all of the major problems occured, including the poorly remanufactured or assembled cyl head replacement. Toyota MDT in MO > > > On Oct 29, 9:56 pm, kb1...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > 1996 1.9L model isn't an interference from what I've read. I lost the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > problems occured, including the poorly remanufactured or assembled cyl > head replacement. Well this looks like its been going on for weeks and I haven't followed the whole saga. I didn't know his belt broke i thought he was just replacing the head. A couple posts back you cautioned the OP about turning the crank or camshaft with the belt off or out of time and then later he discovered the loose rockers. I'm just saying the loose rockers might have avoided valve damage if he had gone against your advice. -jim -jim > Toyota MDT in MO No valve damage occurred when I lost the belt. I was doing 75 and running around 4000 rpm when it went. Put a new one on and it ran the same as before. After the (unrelated) overheat and burnt valve issue, I replaced the head. Old head showed no noticeable valve damage aside from the burnt valve. Like I said, from what I understand, the newer (mid 80s and up) 1.9 escort engines are non-interference. Still trying to diagnose that ticking. Oil level is at the full mark like it should be. I'm wondering what torque setting Ford uses on the rocker arm bolts at the factory. All I have to go by is the Haynes book, which says 20 ft-lbs, but I don't know what the old (original) head had the bolts torqued at. At any rate it runs just fine, and is only audible at/close to idle. > No valve damage occurred when I lost the belt. I was doing 75 and > running around 4000 rpm when it went. Put a new one on and it ran the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > head had the bolts torqued at. At any rate it runs just fine, and is > only audible at/close to idle. All CVH engines from about the mid 80's were free-wheeling designs (non-interference). The lash adjusters in all of these engines are hydraulic; meaning non-adjustable. Just tighten to specified torque. The ticking might just be the injectors. You could use the old screwdriver to the ear trick to isolate the location of the ticking. Or remove one injector connector and see if the sound intensity changes. It will run rough but won't hurt anything if it's brief. > All CVH engines from about the mid 80's were free-wheeling designs > (non-interference). The lash adjusters in all of these engines are > hydraulic; meaning non-adjustable. Just tighten to specified torque. Alldata indicated it was interference, while Gates belt guide does not. I'll take your word as you are the tiebreaker. I seem to remember valve damage on at least one I worked on in the 90's after a broken tbelt, but perhaps there were other circumstances at play. TOyota MDT in MO >> All CVH engines from about the mid 80's were free-wheeling designs >> (non-interference). The lash adjusters in all of these engines are >> hydraulic; meaning non-adjustable. Just tighten to specified torque. > > Alldata indicated it was interference, while Gates belt guide does > not. I'll take your word as you are the tiebreaker. I forget what year Escort I had; seems like it was mid-to late-eighties. But I was in the car when it went plink plink when the timing belt pulley slipped and the timing went off, and that engine never ran again. I could be wrong about the year of the car; I don't think I am. SignatureOne meter, to within 0.0125% accuracy (off by just under .005 inches): Three feet Three inches Three eights of an inch Don't know if my last post went through. One of the rocker arms came off. The shop that built the head didn't torque the rocker arm bolts down properly - they were all loose. Now torqued to 20 ft-lbs per the Haynes manual and all seems well, except for a light valve chatter at idle. Oil is at the half-way mark, I'll put it to the full mark tomorrow and see if it goes away. Car now pulls past 80 on the freeway no problem. Thanks for the help - I'm also going to fix that tensioner on the timing belt tomorrow and get rid of that slack. Doug > Don't know if my last post went through. It did, but I've been having the same problem with Comcast. My posts seem to disappear, but people often reply to them. Doesn't happen all the time, either, I do see some of my own articles, just not all. SignatureOne meter, to within 0.0125% accuracy (off by just under .005 inches): Three feet Three inches Three eights of an inch
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