Hi Group,
I'm wondering what the long term penalty is for using lower octane
fuel than called for.
If the owner's maunual calls for, say, 91 and 87 is used my
understanding for the short term is:
The ECM will retard the timing based on
the knock sensor output.
The retarded timing will cause the engine to run less efficiently
and gas mileage may suffer.
Now, if 87 octane was used exclusively in place of 91, would the
engine suffer any damage over the long term?
Thanks, Gary
Dyno - 02 Nov 2007 06:06 GMT
> Hi Group,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Thanks, Gary
The ECM will only retard timing when the knock sensor actually detects
knock. So, for light-load operation like just cruising down the highway,
timing probably won't be altered at all. Only under high-load will you
see much of an effect.
And since the typical duration of high-load operation is relatively
brief, it's highly unlikely that you will cause any permanent damage.
This assumes the knock detection system is working correctly of coarse.
This also assumes that when ignition is retarded, the ensuing
elevated exhaust temperatures do not exceed the safe limit for the
catalyst (a high speed/load issue).
I have had several SHO Taurus' that recommended premium fuel and never
ran premium fuel. I was willing to trade the performance hit for lower
fuel costs. Since most of my driving was freeway cruising I didn't see
any point in wasting octane just cruising down the freeway. I never had
any engine trouble (wore out as set of front tires in 12k miles though).
Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 02 Nov 2007 14:36 GMT
> > Hi Group,
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> any point in wasting octane just cruising down the freeway. I never had
> any engine trouble (wore out as set of front tires in 12k miles though).
But under light load one is unlikely to suffer ping much anyway.
Detonation is usually the result of high cylinder pressures which
means high VE /open throttle.
Most likely damage from detonation is piston damage. While my Neon
manual recommends premium (it is the RT version), after my initial
tests with premium and regular I never ran premium again. The
difference in gas milage was less than the probable error in the
statistics. The car now has 125,000 miles. I recently ran milage on
several tankfuls. I get exactly the same milage as when the car was
new, so I assume the rings and pistons are still in pretty good shape.
Mike Walsh - 02 Nov 2007 16:28 GMT
I don't know about Minnesota, but in many states where there is no government agency that tests gas from consumer pumps many gas stations charge you for 93 octane gas but give you 87 octane gas. That is the main reason most people are wasting there money paying for "high octane" gas.
> Most likely damage from detonation is piston damage. While my Neon
> manual recommends premium (it is the RT version), after my initial
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> several tankfuls. I get exactly the same milage as when the car was
> new, so I assume the rings and pistons are still in pretty good shape.

Signature
Mike Walsh
West Palm Beach, Florida, U.S.A.
Mike Walsh - 02 Nov 2007 13:23 GMT
> Hi Group,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> The ECM will retard the timing based on
> the knock sensor output.
And the fuel mixture will be enriched (to cool the mixture and prevent pinging).
> The retarded timing will cause the engine to run less efficiently
> and gas mileage may suffer.
>
> Now, if 87 octane was used exclusively in place of 91, would the
> engine suffer any damage over the long term?
The rich mixture will foul spark plugs and fill the combustion chambers with carbon.
> Thanks, Gary

Signature
Mike Walsh
West Palm Beach, Florida, U.S.A.
Mike - 02 Nov 2007 14:36 GMT
>> Hi Group,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> And the fuel mixture will be enriched (to cool the mixture and prevent
> pinging).
WRONG!!! That won't happen.
>> The retarded timing will cause the engine to run less efficiently
>> and gas mileage may suffer.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The rich mixture will foul spark plugs and fill the combustion chambers
> with carbon.
WRONG!!!!!
>> Thanks, Gary
Noozer - 02 Nov 2007 20:49 GMT
>> I'm wondering what the long term penalty is for using lower octane
>> fuel than called for.
If your car can compensate for lower octane, you will end up with lower
milage, so you aren't saving any money by using lower octane gas.
If your car can't compensate for lower octane, then you'll end up damaging
the engine.
Just use the octane that the manufacturer suggests.
Steve - 02 Nov 2007 18:23 GMT
> Hi Group,
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Thanks, Gary
That depends ENTIRELY on whether or not the engine managment computer
can retard the timing enough to prevent detonation. If it can't,
detonation will occur with all the long-term damage it causes (hammered
bearings, possible piston damage, possible cylinder head and head gasket
damage, etc.)
G Mulcaster - 03 Nov 2007 03:54 GMT
>I'm wondering what the long term penalty is for using lower octane
>fuel than called for.
Thanks for the responses everyone.
Sounds like there would be no long term damage to the engine provided
the knock sensing system was working properly.
Regards, Gary
Noozer - 03 Nov 2007 04:55 GMT
>>I'm wondering what the long term penalty is for using lower octane
>>fuel than called for.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Sounds like there would be no long term damage to the engine provided
> the knock sensing system was working properly.
But WHY would you want to?
Scott Dorsey - 03 Nov 2007 15:40 GMT
>>>I'm wondering what the long term penalty is for using lower octane
>>>fuel than called for.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>But WHY would you want to?
Sometimes it's all that is available.
--scott

Signature
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
TE Chea - 03 Nov 2007 07:28 GMT
| >I'm wondering what the long term penalty is
www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html
G Mulcaster - 04 Nov 2007 01:30 GMT
>| >I'm wondering what the long term penalty is
>www.turborick.com/gsxr1127/gasoline.html
Excellent info. Thanks.
Gary
Ray - 03 Nov 2007 05:05 GMT
> Now, if 87 octane was used exclusively in place of 91, would the
> engine suffer any damage over the long term?
>
> Thanks, Gary
depends on the car.
I accidentally put 87 in my Trans Am once, and it pinged so bad I had to
hit the next gas station and buy some octane boost. It NEEDS 91 or
else. The price you pay for high performance.
Long term use of 87 in this car would result in pistons that looked like
swiss cheese.
Frankly, if your car specs 91, you're playing with fire by not using it.
Ray