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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2007Ticking valves/stuck lifter?
I guess you could call this part 3 (hopefully the last!) of my Escort saga for those of you who have been following. For those who haven't, I have a 96 Ford Escort 1.9L that overheated and burnt a valve. Replaced the head and head gasket and its running again. Only issue now is that I have some sort of ticking going on that changes with RPM. It's most noticeable at idle - as I rev the engine the noise of the engine makes it harder to hear. The ticking doesn't appear to increase in sound, only in speed. Initially I had a very loud clanking/ticking when I first got it going again. I pulled the valve cover and found the #3 exhaust rocker arm had come off. The rocker bolts weren't torqued properly by the shop that built the head. I torqued all rocker bolts down to 20 ft-lbs per the Haynes manual. The loud clanking/ticking was gone, but now I had a quieter ticking (still very noticeable) that changed with RPM. It is loudest when first starting the engine, then it quiets down a little. Once the engine is warm and I'm stopped at a light or something, it seems to be intermittent (tick tick tick [pause] tick tick [pause] tick tick tick etc.) Tonight I pulled the valve cover off again and compared everything to the old head. I found that the round clips that go over the lifters wiggled easily, whereas those on the old head didn't. I swapped out the clips and the bracket that holds them down. I made sure I torqued all rocker bolts down to the right setting, rotating the crankshaft to take the pressure off the rocker/springs (valve closed) as I tightened each. When I restarted it, the ticking seemed to have disappeared, but after it warmed up and I reved it a bit, it was back. I'm kind of lost as to what to try next. I did notice that the lifters on the old head could be pushed down and spring back up, while those on the new head seemed solid. I would assume this is because the ones in the old head had leaked down and lost their oil - but I'm not too familiar with all this. I could try swapping the new and old lifters, but thats about the last thing I can think of. Is there some kind of oil additive to treat a condition like this, assuming it could be stuck lifter? Thanks, Doug I guess you could call this part 3 (hopefully the last!) of my Escort saga for those of you who have been following. For those who haven't, I have a 96 Ford Escort 1.9L that overheated and burnt a valve. Replaced the head and head gasket and its running again. Only issue now is that I have some sort of ticking going on that changes with RPM. It's most noticeable at idle - as I rev the engine the noise of the engine makes it harder to hear. The ticking doesn't appear to increase in sound, only in speed. Initially I had a very loud clanking/ticking when I first got it going again. I pulled the valve cover and found the #3 exhaust rocker arm had come off. The rocker bolts weren't torqued properly by the shop that built the head. I torqued all rocker bolts down to 20 ft-lbs per the Haynes manual. The loud clanking/ticking was gone, but now I had a quieter ticking (still very noticeable) that changed with RPM. It is loudest when first starting the engine, then it quiets down a little. Once the engine is warm and I'm stopped at a light or something, it seems to be intermittent (tick tick tick [pause] tick tick [pause] tick tick tick etc.) Tonight I pulled the valve cover off again and compared everything to the old head. I found that the round clips that go over the lifters wiggled easily, whereas those on the old head didn't. I swapped out the clips and the bracket that holds them down. I made sure I torqued all rocker bolts down to the right setting, rotating the crankshaft to take the pressure off the rocker/springs (valve closed) as I tightened each. When I restarted it, the ticking seemed to have disappeared, but after it warmed up and I reved it a bit, it was back. I'm kind of lost as to what to try next. I did notice that the lifters on the old head could be pushed down and spring back up, while those on the new head seemed solid. I would assume this is because the ones in the old head had leaked down and lost their oil - but I'm not too familiar with all this. I could try swapping the new and old lifters, but thats about the last thing I can think of. Is there some kind of oil additive to treat a condition like this, assuming it could be stuck lifter? Thanks, Doug _____________________________________________________ Check exhaust manifold flanges for bad gasket or improper tightening. Is this an interference engine? Maybe you bent a valve when the rocker arm fell off. A compression test should tell you if this is the case (low compression on that cylinder, squirting oil into the cylinder does not help). You may also be able to look for impact marks on the piston through the spark plug hole, depending on the car. Bad lifters can sometimes be helped with thicker oil (to help them keep pressure) or by running a small amount of ATF or Seafoam in the crankcase (to try to loosen deposits that clog their little oil holes). However, either one of these remedies can cause other engine damage if not done right, so making an actual repair is preferred if this is a car you care about. > Is this an interference engine? Maybe you bent a valve when the rocker > arm fell off. A compression test should tell you if this is the case [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > damage if not done right, so making an actual repair is preferred if > this is a car you care about. The lifters -should- be new. They all seemed to be pumped up with oil when I opened it. It's not an interference engine. Aside from the sound it's running fine. > The lifters -should- be new. They all seemed to be pumped up with oil > when I opened it. It's not an interference engine. Aside from the > sound it's running fine. Well if the tick comes and goes, that certainly sounds like a lifter that is collapsing. Oil can't make it in to the lifter as fast as it leaks back out. It's quietest when cold and at higher RPM when oil pressure is high, and loudest when oil pressure is lowest (hot idle). Perhaps it was damaged when the rocker arm fell off. Yes, I think your idea of swapping in an old lifter is a good one. Be prepared for quite the racket as it will take a few seconds to pump up with oil, it should quiet down within a minute or two though. > > The lifters -should- be new. They all seemed to be pumped up with oil > > when I opened it. It's not an interference engine. Aside from the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the racket as it will take a few seconds to pump up with oil, it > should quiet down within a minute or two though. How can I verify it's the lifter the rocker arm fell off? Could I pull the plug wire and remove the rocker and lifter on that cylinder, and start it and see if it still ticks? It will run on 3 cylinders, I had a plug boot fall off once. Don't know if removing the rocker would hurt it though (it wouldn't be firing with no plug wire connected). I could try Seafoam - I've put that in the oil before. What is the ratio again (oz of seafoam per qt?) Thanks, Doug > How can I verify it's the lifter the rocker arm fell off? Could I > pull the plug wire and remove the rocker and lifter on that cylinder, > and start it and see if it still ticks? I'm not sure how the Ford head is designed -- assuming the lifter is between the rocker and the valve, you might start the car for 1-2 seconds to pump up the good lifters and then shut it off while the bad one is still ticking. Then break out a feeler gauge and compare clearances. The clearance should be much greater on the bad lifter, that's why it makes noise -- too much of a gap. If you've ever adjusted the valves on an old car with manually-adjusted non-hydraulic lifters, you know just what to look for. Failing all other options, if you remove both the intake and the exhaust rockers for that cylinder, yes, I think that will identify the bad lifter. Leaving the intake valve operational might be a bad idea (raw gasoline piling up in the cylinder is not good for rings or cylinder walls). Disclaimer: I'm a shadetree VW tinkerer with zero professional training -- don't blame me if you blow up your engine because I don't know what I'm talking about. ;) > Failing all other options, if you remove both the intake and the > exhaust rockers for that cylinder, yes, I think that will identify the > bad lifter. Leaving the intake valve operational might be a bad idea > (raw gasoline piling up in the cylinder is not good for rings or > cylinder walls). if the intake valve is closed, wheres the gas going? the injector is still firing gas out, isnt it? > if the intake valve is closed, wheres the gas going? the injector is > still firing gas out, isnt it? On SFI I suppose it'll pile up in the intake port, but on MPI little if any gas will should make it into the intake port since no air will be flowing there. >>> The lifters -should- be new. They all seemed to be pumped up with oil >>> when I opened it. It's not an interference engine. Aside from the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Thanks, > Doug It has Sequential Port Fuel Injection. If you disable the valvetrain on that cylinder, fuel will build up in the intake port. Just disconnect that cylinder's injector and you can run your temporary test. Since this engine has hydraulic lash adjusters that are fed from the oil galley in the head, do not remove the lash adjuster or you will create a huge oil leak that may starve any valvetrain components downstream of the removed adjuster. This may also starve the cam bearings as well. If you proceed make the test as short as possible. You might be able to remove the rocker arm, and use a rubber band (or equiv.) to hold the lash adjuster off the cam far enough to clear the lobe. Could it be possible that the lifter pumped up too far (ie. all the way) when the rocker came loose, and when I put the rocker back on the clearance was messed up from start? How do you bleed them down (other than waiting a week without running the car)? The 'piston' thing in the middle of the old lifters could be pressed down and spring back up - on the new ones they are solid and could not be pushed down by hand. Unforunately I had to send the old head back, as there was a core charge. I can get a lifter from the local junkyard for $5, but I'd like to verify which one it is first. Even if I pulled the rockers and the lifters for a quick second and ran it, wouldn't the others tick if they were not receiving oil? You had mentioned that pulling one would cut off oil flow to the other lifters downstream.. |
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