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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2007

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72 Nova tuning

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news - 06 Nov 2007 03:56 GMT
Before my buddy spends a bunch more money on his motor, I'd like to help
him optimize his current setup.  He's redoing most of the body this
winter, so it's not like he's afraid to spend the money, but his goals
are fairly modest.
(you can see it at www.rollingviolation.com/rv103 )

Currently, the car does the quarter in 15.27@89 mph.
He wants to do a 13 flat.  (basically, he wants to be faster than my
Trans Am.)

The car was originally a 6 cyl with a 'glide, and it doesn't have a posi
either.

The motor is from a 76 Malibu. (350 Chevy...)
AFAIK original rings and pistons - probably 8ish:1 compression.
Not burning any oil, so they're still "good" - (for 31 year old parts.)
Crank is stock, cut 0.10 under.
Heads are 882's, no porting done.  Original valves.
Springs were replaced a couple of years ago - IIRC with a Comp Cams set.
Used to float the valves around 5000, now it's good to about 5800 which
is about as high as he'll rev it. (We didn't measure the installed
height, so they'll need to be pulled and probably shimmed anyway.)
The dist is a Mallory HEI from Summit and he also has an MSD Digital 6+.
The cam is the old 447 lift 300hp 327 cam IIRC.  He has since bought a
Comp Cam cam with around 480 lift, but because the car has AC now it's
no minor job to swap the cam.
The carb is a Holley 600 (not sure of the model #, but it has vacuum
secondaries and isn't a double pumper.)
The intake is a Performer RPM.
Exhaust is a set of headers and no name mufflers.  (they're old, and
dunno the brand of headers.)
Holley electric fuel pump.

The TH350 is stock except for a ~2000 rpm stall TQ.
The rear is stock open diff, and we can't agree on the gears in there
and he won't pull the cover.  (they're definitely NOT 4.10's.)

The car pulls decent from the line, but is no torque monster, comes
alive around 3500 and pulls to about 5500.  Pulls about a 2.1 60 foot
time on a set of drag radials.

He's talking about a set of Edelbrock heads, but before doing that, I'm
wondering what suggestions I can make...

The first time we went drag racing it staggered to a 17 second run, and
we've knocked 2 seconds off just by tuning the car and Darren learning
to drive it.

Here's what I was thinking:
Spend $100 on a couple of dyno runs to see what kind of power the car
currently makes.  (I think he needs to wind it out more, especially with
that cam.)
More timing.  34-36 total.  Can't remember what he's got, but I bet it's
not enough.
I can see this taking a couple of tenths off, but not a full 2 seconds.
He keeps wanting to mess with the carb, and I'm no carb guy, but
wouldn't power valves and stuff be not really relevant at the drag strip
once your foot is to the floor?

I keep suggesting that with the stock low compression that he finds a
6-71 blower on Ebay, but he doesn't want it sticking through the hood.

How much more speed do you guys think is in this combo?  14.5?  14.0?

For $1500 what would get him the biggest HP gain?  (Nitrous
notwithstanding... worked for my car, but he's worried about blowing his
motor to bits with that.  I say he's a pussy.)

Ray
Steve W. - 06 Nov 2007 05:51 GMT
> Before my buddy spends a bunch more money on his motor, I'd like to help
> him optimize his current setup.  He's redoing most of the body this
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> He wants to do a 13 flat.  (basically, he wants to be faster than my
> Trans Am.)

With what he has he won't see much under 15 even with good tuning.
The question that needs to be answered first is what is the intended use
for the car?
 If he wants a fast drag car strip out all the extra weight. AC, power
steering, heater and all it's hardware, rear seat and any carpet/sound
deadener, headliner, lighter seats, spare tire.

Pull the rear gears and change them out. Being a 6/Glide the ratio is
probably 3.07:1 NOT racing gears. He may just want to put in the entire
rear out of a Camaro in it (68-70 should fit IIRC).

Engine wise. Run it on a dyno if you like, I'm betting that with the
current set-up your maybe getting 250 HP. Your going to need about 100
more to get into 13 territory.
  Pull it and strip it down. If it's not a 4 bolt either find one or
put on conversion caps. Bore it out and drop in some better pistons. If
it's a cast crank and he wants to make real power scrap it and find a
forged one. Put a complete Edelbrock package on top if he wants to spend
the money. Match the heads, carb and cam to the power curve he wants.
Get a good set of headers and tune the collector length before you drop
it in size. Then install an H pipe and a good dual exhaust if you want
it legal.

 That is another area where the first question has to be answered prior
to spending money. Get an engine set up for real strip duty and it will
be a painful street engine.

Signature

Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

Ray - 06 Nov 2007 08:07 GMT
>> Before my buddy spends a bunch more money on his motor, I'd like to
>> help him optimize his current setup.  He's redoing most of the body
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The question that needs to be answered first is what is the intended use
> for the car?

The car is his fun car.  Street 90%, strip 10%.  That's why he added the
AC, so his SO doesn't cook while driving in the summer.  Unfortunately,
ripping out the interior etc... isn't in the cards.  Now, if it was MY
car... :)

>  That is another area where the first question has to be answered prior
> to spending money. Get an engine set up for real strip duty and it will
> be a painful street engine.

I'm trying to prod him for that this winter.  The answer so far is a 13
flat at the strip without having to gut the car.  He bought a cam
already after talking to Comp, but he's kinda funny - he'll live with
the rough idle and the noise from headers, but he won't spring for
anything but regular unleaded.

I worry that even with a set of good Edelbrock heads and the new cam,
he's still "wasting" a ton of power without doing at least 9.5:1
compression, which means new pistons and pretty much re-doing the whole
shortblock.

The irony I find is that it's easier to build a race engine than a
street engine - the rules dictate what you can and cannot do to your
race engine, and all you care about is HP, nothing else matters, whereas
with a street car, you need to be able to run pump gas, have it start
when hot, not eat plugs and valvesprings every two weeks...

I'm going to try and finangle a budget out of him... I was hoping to
find a magic cure for his power woes, but I didn't think so... :(

Ray
anumber1 - 06 Nov 2007 13:59 GMT
>>> Before my buddy spends a bunch more money on his motor, I'd like to
>>> help him optimize his current setup.  He's redoing most of the body
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Ray

Your buddy is going to have to make some hard choices.

More compression would be half of the battle. But, along with 10:1 comes
much more than just a set of pistons. Perhaps a mail order long block or
a GM crate motor would be a more solid investment in the long run.

He 'aint ever going to get there with a two bolt smog motor.
Ray - 06 Nov 2007 16:26 GMT
> Your buddy is going to have to make some hard choices.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> He 'aint ever going to get there with a two bolt smog motor.

<sigh>
I knew that. :(

I run a GM crate engine in my dirt car because that's basically what the
rules allow - we just swapped cams for a lift rule one.

Seems if you want a 250hp small block, you can do it for < $2000
300 hp = $3000
400 hp = $4500
500 hp = $6000
and so on...

For 350 hp, would he be better off going Vortec heads and intake?

I still say he should stick a blower on it and crank up the boost until
it grenades, but then there's a reason I have a collection of blowed up
motor bits and he doesn't...

:)
Steve W. - 07 Nov 2007 03:58 GMT
>> Your buddy is going to have to make some hard choices.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> :)

Join the club :) I've got a spare engine all set for my fun car, It's
the 5th one it's had in 4 years! Started with a 350 4 bolt block and
added a couple pieces, put it on the Dyno and pulled 473 hp with a
little adjusting. Still has some more left but that is enough to move
the little Starfire down the road....

http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ has some really good deals on crate
engines. Maybe you should just tell him that if he want to play he has
to pay. Just the way it is. hp = money / BIG HP = BIG MONEY

Signature

Steve W.

news - 07 Nov 2007 05:22 GMT
> http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ has some really good deals on crate
> engines. Maybe you should just tell him that if he want to play he has
> to pay. Just the way it is. hp = money / BIG HP = BIG MONEY

he's willing to pay, just wanting to help him make the right choices.

It's tough to have it all... he wants something that will idle good
enough for the AC to work, not get 6 mpg, yet make 350 hp.  And cheap.
Unfortunately, back in the real world... you can't have it all.

Ray
Steve W. - 07 Nov 2007 06:02 GMT
>> http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ has some really good deals on crate
>> engines. Maybe you should just tell him that if he want to play he has
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ray

Nope, Cheap and high HP don't belong in the same sentence.
How about updating to a newer engine combo? Maybe find a wrecked newer
vehicle with a good engine and trans and adapting it to fit. Then he
would be a lot closer to the power he wants and with the FI and the OD
trans he would still get decent mileage. That 72 has plenty of room in
the engine bay. The TBI 350 out of my 95 van would drop in there easily,
4L60 trans and the computer is a nice small one. Just need a different
fuel pump to feed it.

Signature

Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

news - 07 Nov 2007 06:17 GMT
>>> http://www.crateenginedepot.com/ has some really good deals on crate
>>> engines. Maybe you should just tell him that if he want to play he
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> 4L60 trans and the computer is a nice small one. Just need a different
> fuel pump to feed it.

He's already bought a Comp Cams cam in the summer, but we didn't swap
due to the AC being in the way (either have to drain it or pull the
motor...)

the cam is the CS XE268H-10
intake 477 lift/224 duration (050 lift)
exhaust 480/230

he was probably going to get a set of Edelbrock Performer RPM heads
Even with 64cc heads I don't know if he's got enough compression...
(what about Trick Flow or Dart or ???)

I just don't want him to spend 2 grand on parts and only reach the 14's...

he does kinda drive like a wuss, so the cast pistons should hold up.
(so sayeth the guy who once broke a cam into 4 pieces...)

Ray
news - 07 Nov 2007 06:23 GMT
> Nope, Cheap and high HP don't belong in the same sentence.
> How about updating to a newer engine combo? Maybe find a wrecked newer
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 4L60 trans and the computer is a nice small one. Just need a different
> fuel pump to feed it.

I meant to add a couple of other comments:

I think it annoys him when I talk about a $4000 440 hp LS1 swap for my
01 Trans Am.... but I don't want to because the wife won't allow a cage
in the car... (it runs a 12.18 on a 100 shot)

I've pretty much ruled out any TPI 80's stuff... if you go look at old
car mags, they weren't really that fast - 15 flat for the
Camaro/Firebird, low 14's for the Vette... they may make a lot of low
end torque, but the high HP numbers just aren't there, and if he wants a
13 flat in the quarter, he's going to need 350hp, or a power adder of
some kind...

Ray
Stan Weiss - 07 Nov 2007 14:26 GMT
> > Nope, Cheap and high HP don't belong in the same sentence.
> > How about updating to a newer engine combo? Maybe find a wrecked newer
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Ray

A 75 HP shoot of nitrous. If he wants more nitrous (100 HP or 150 HP)
change out the cast pistons. His fun car will stay the same for the 90%
street.
philthy - 10 Nov 2007 16:35 GMT
i would dump the carb and intake use a victor junior intake (single plane)
with a 750 double pumper.
mark one spoton the tire tire and then mark the driveshaft then rotate the
driveshaft making sure the wheel turns and count the times the driveshft
turns compared to the wheel spinning just once and you will have the basic
gear ratio
if the drive shaft turn 3.7 times comparde to the wheel it has a 3.73
i would wager iot has a 3.23 or so if it is stock

> Before my buddy spends a bunch more money on his motor, I'd like to help
> him optimize his current setup.  He's redoing most of the body this
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>
> Ray
 
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