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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / November 2007R&R cost, 2004 Audi TT timing belt replacement?
I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just died on the interstate; RPMs dropped to zero even though the car was in gear and the clutch was engaged. The car will turn over but won't start. I'm thinking timing belt. Can anyone give me an idea of the estimated hours of labor, and cost of parts, for this repair? And if it's an interference engine? Thanks in advance, Josh > I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks in advance, > Josh Sorry to reply to my own post; I neglected to indicate the mileage is about 80k. Thanks, Josh > I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks in advance, > Josh Find out what the problem is first. There are more than one item that can cause it to die. Does it have fuel pressure, Spark? Compression? Check those first.  SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York NRA Member Pacifism - The theory that if they'd fed Jeffrey Dahmer enough human flesh, he'd have become a vegan. ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ---- http://www.pronews.com offers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups >> I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC >> turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > can cause it to die. Does it have fuel pressure, Spark? Compression? > Check those first. How would any of these cause RPMs to drop to zero while the car was rolling, even though the engine was still engaged with the drivetrain? Thanks, Josh > >> I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > >> turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > How would any of these cause RPMs to drop to zero while the car was rolling, even though the engine was still engaged with the drivetrain? Yes, your right checking the timing belt first would probably make the most sense. If it's the timing belt than you are probably talking big bucks since there may be extensive engine damage. Engine RPM didn't drop to zero unless the clutch is also completely gone. What drop to zero is the tach reading. That would certainly rule out fuel and compression as the problem, but does not necessarily rule out an electrical problem. -jim > Thanks, > Josh >>> I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC >>> turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanks, > Josh Did the car roll to a stop OR slide to a stop? No fuel = The engine shuts down, and won't restart. Electric pump supplies the fuel. Blown fuse or bad pump shuts the engine down. Just like turning off the key. Tach drops to zero. No spark = Engine control unit or coil failure. Engine will still crank but not fire. Tach signal also comes from the ECU using the same sensor it uses to trigger the spark. Compression = Test it and discover if it has a problem. If you find a bad cylinder (or more) then it is possible the engine ate a valve, or blew a rod or even snapped the crankshaft. All of which stop the engine. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York ---- Posted via Pronews.com - Premium Corporate Usenet News Provider ---- http://www.pronews.com offers corporate packages that have access to 100,000+ newsgroups Maybe the cam position sensor drives the tach? Maybe an electronic issue is the problem, and not the belt? Diagnosis by posting is not an exact science, some can only relate what is a well known issue with a specific make and model. RK >>> I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC >>> turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thanks, > Josh > I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks in advance, > Josh I found out using google that it is, indeed, an interference engine. So, no one can tell me the estimated number of hours labor for a timing belt for this engine? He's having the work done at an Audi dealership, and I'd like to hear this group's thoughts on what it would run... assuming the valves and pistons are not chewed up. Thanks, josh > > I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > > turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > So, no one can tell me the estimated number of hours labor for a timing belt for this engine? He's having the work done at an Audi dealership, and I'd like to hear this group's thoughts on what it would run... assuming the valves and pistons are not chewed up. If timing belt broke when the car was traveling at 70mph what would be the point in assuming no damage to valves or pistons? -jim > Thanks, > josh > I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just > died on the interstate; RPMs dropped to zero even though the car was in > gear and the clutch was engaged. The car will turn over but won't start. > > I'm thinking timing belt. Why? Have you pulled the distributor cap and verified that the rotor is not turning? > Can anyone give me an idea of the estimated hours of labor, and cost of > parts, for this repair? And if it's an interference engine? I believe it is an interference engine, which means you are probably in the market for a new car, if indeed it IS a timing belt. I am still not sure what leads you to think it is. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." | I'm thinking timing belt. Open rocker cover's oil cap. When engine is cranked, see if tappets can move, if not then t-belt broke. > I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks in advance, > Josh An update. Since my last post, the report has come in from the dealership. Broken timing belt, couple of broken teeth on timing gears. Engine needs new head and new turbos. And timing kit, obviously. Quote from dealership: $6900 for parts and labor. For a new head and turbos, and a timing set. Wow. Reman engine from jasper for this car: $5303 ("custom" - not sure what that means, probably just means unusual). Wow. I'm in the wrong business, waiting for this new-fangled "interweb" thing to take off - time to switch to rebuilding audi 4cyl engines. I wonder if my friend can negotiate a "good-will" repair here? Apparently Audi had a class-action suit against them for premature timing belt failure on this very same engine, in the A4s. My buddy seems to think the heinous crime here is the production, manufacture, and installation of interference engines in mainstream vehicles... I tried to tell him this isn't uncommon... When the real problem seems to be timing belts which fail at 80k (I know, I know, most probably don't) when the recommended service is at 105k. Thanks all for your input. I just wanted to close the loop on this one and fill in the blanks. Thanks, Josh > Since my last post, the report has come in from the dealership. > > Broken timing belt, couple of broken teeth on timing gears. Engine needs new > head and new turbos. And timing kit, obviously. Turbos also? Are they bad or is the dealership just covering their a.ses? > Quote from dealership: $6900 for parts and labor. For a new head and turbos, > and a timing set. Wow. Hard to believe one can get all that for such a low price. > Reman engine from jasper for this car: $5303 ("custom" - not sure what that > means, probably just means unusual). Means they don't have one on a skid ready to ship, means your friend has his engine sent to Jasper and they will rebuild it, means his car will be down a while, means they don't do many, means he's taking a big chance, means if there is a warranty concern, your friend is on the hook for the difference in labor costs between what Jasper will pay versus what the shop doing the work is charging, means your friend is taking a big chance. > Wow. > > I'm in the wrong business, waiting for this new-fangled "interweb" thing to > take off - time to switch to rebuilding audi 4cyl engines. You could probably tool up for $500,000 or so.... > I wonder if my friend can negotiate a "good-will" repair here? I think if they find coked bearings in the turbos, your friend is SOL. I think if he can't produce repair orders specifically stating that the correct VW/Audi specification oil was used at each and every oil change, he's SOL. > Apparently > Audi had a class-action suit against them for premature timing belt failure > on this very same engine, in the A4s. After the erection has subsided is a bad time to do reliability research. > My buddy seems to think the heinous > crime here is the production, manufacture, and installation of interference > engines in mainstream vehicles... I think the heinous crime here is your buddy bought a car he can't afford. I also think an Audi TT is definitely NOT a mainstream vehicle; it's a silly looking poorly engineered chic and trendy fashion statement marketed to Northshore Nancy's with more money than brains. > I tried to tell him this isn't uncommon... Either version, not uncommon. > When the real problem seems to be timing belts which fail at 80k (I know, I > know, most probably don't) when the recommended service is at 105k. Now he knows. Welcome to Volkswagen. If it's any consolation, the 2.8 liter V-6 used in Saabs and Cadillac Catera's eats timing belts at a rate that makes this Audi look positively slant six reliable. > Thanks all for your input. I just wanted to close the loop on this one and > fill in the blanks. > In article <%Cq3j.4999$vt2.3...@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, > I think the heinous crime here is your buddy bought a car he > can't afford. > I also think an Audi TT is definitely NOT a mainstream vehicle; > it's a silly looking poorly engineered chic and trendy fashion > statement marketed to Northshore Nancy's with more money than > brains. I disagree. The short block of that engine dates back to the early 70's and is one of the strongest on the market. It got dressed up with a turbo and a 5-valve head for the "1.8T" iteration of it, but the basic mechanicals of it are hell for strong. This is the same basic short block that was used for the old Wabbit/Jetta Diesel and current TDI engines; certainly they have a better reliability record than the awful Olds 350-based Diesels, and I've never heard anyone call an Olds gas V-8 "weak." About the only engines that I can think of as strong and as capable of taking so much abuse (or boost as the case may be) would be the old Toyota straight sixes, and old American V-8s like Studebaker, AMC, early Cadillac, etc. The real failing is VAG trying to stretch the timing belt replacement interval to make maintenance costs appear lower than they should be. I'd call it 60K and be done with it; that's what it was on the old, 8- valve, non-interference 1.8 8V so I don't know why they'd try to stretch it out on the interference, 20V version of the same engine. For the record, I bought a GTI 1.8T new in '02 and loved it. Sold it to my mom with no qualms whatsoever, but this thread reminds me to remind her to stay on top of TB replacement :( I would think that someone with a handle of "aarcuda" would appreciate a ludicrously overbuilt and stronger-than-it-needs-to-be bottom end :) (yeah, I like mopars too, just don't have any at the moment.) nate In article <97c019a0-de48-4513-a17a-699895e7de35@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.co m>, > > In article <%Cq3j.4999$vt2.3...@bignews8.bellsouth.net>, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > with a turbo and a 5-valve head for the "1.8T" iteration of it, but > the basic mechanicals of it are hell for strong. The short block isn't what f.cked up. > This is the same > basic short block that was used for the old Wabbit/Jetta Diesel and > current TDI engines; certainly they have a better reliability record > than the awful Olds 350-based Diesels, and I've never heard anyone > call an Olds gas V-8 "weak." The 2.3 engine in the Chevy Vega had a better reliability record than the GM 5.7 diesel. FWIW, the Olds V-8 though less weak than some of its other GM siblings had almost as healthy appetite for camshafts as the small block Chevys did... > About the only engines that I can think > of as strong and as capable of taking so much abuse (or boost as the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > valve, non-interference 1.8 8V so I don't know why they'd try to > stretch it out on the interference, 20V version of the same engine. Critical components that fail before their recommended replacement interval equals poor engineering. > For the record, I bought a GTI 1.8T new in '02 and loved it. Sold it > to my mom with no qualms whatsoever, but this thread reminds me to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a ludicrously overbuilt and stronger-than-it-needs-to-be bottom > end :) (yeah, I like mopars too, just don't have any at the moment.) I didn't condemn the bottom end of the engine, I condemned the car as a whole. Audis' make me laugh. > In article > <97c019a0-de48-4513-a17a-699895e7de35@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.co [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > The short block isn't what f.cked up. yup, it was the belt. Or more correctly, the person that decided to extend the replacement interval without checking with engineering. >>This is the same >>basic short block that was used for the old Wabbit/Jetta Diesel and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > replacement interval equals poor engineering. > I am guessing that this was a marketing-driven change, not an engineering-driven change. >>For the record, I bought a GTI 1.8T new in '02 and loved it. Sold it >>to my mom with no qualms whatsoever, but this thread reminds me to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > car as a whole. > Audis' make me laugh. Don't know why; they're great cars. Like VW's though they do tend to have little quirks with the accessories. This is one of the first major issues I've heard of with a VW engine however (and this is basically a VW engine) usually if something goes wrong it's non-catastrophic. Like I said before I'd stick with a 60K replacement interval and not follow the book. And whine and bitch to Audi that the damn thing grenaded even though it wasn't due for a TB service yet. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel I don't know how this works in the US, but here in Sweden the belt change is driven by the condition of it. It is checked on every service, and I'm not sure if any audi has a fixed replacement interval any more. > > I have a friend with a 2004 Audit TT, I believe it has the 1.8L DOHC > > turbo; I'm not sure if it's a "Quattro" or not. Recently the car just [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Thanks, > Josh The interference design of this engine isn't really a flaw, per se, it is a necessary byproduct of a performance-oriented engine. Optimizing combustion chamber designs for best efficiency, multiple valves (your engine has five per cylinder) and high-ish compression all conspire to make a non-interference design impractical. I suspect the Jasper engine doesn't include a turbo, although that prompts the question, why does your turbo (there is only one) need to be replaced? Did a valve break completely and spray metal into the exhaust piping? That's the only reason I could see for requiring a turbo replacement. The real question is, how many miles are on your car right now? If fewer than the recommended TB replacement interval, I'd say that you do have a pretty good case for asking for a goodwill repair from Audi. Also in the future I would recommend TB changes between 60-80K miles no matter what the owner's manual says; the consequences of failure, as you have discovered, are expensive. Another option, if you can't get a goodwill repair, is to get an engine from a wrecked car in a junkyard, or maybe just try to get a head and turbo if you're feeling froggy. There is a possibility that a piston or cylinder wall may be nicked enough that the short block on your car may not be able to be reused, but then again, often only the head and valves will be seriously damaged and you can replace those and keep on driving. good luck, nate |
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