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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2007No more comfortable cars?
While my 87 Town Car was being repaired at a Lincoln dealer, they let me use a 2007 Town Car for the 2 days. I was surprised and disappointed in the 2007 model. The new Town Car had a very stiff uncomfortable (lumber wagon) ride. More like I would expect from a Mustang with a racing suspension. Apparently they put some sort of noisy sound enhancing muffler on it. You barely touch the gas pedal and it jumps. The steering was very jerky making it hard to make smooth turns. A 1987 Town Car rides so much smoother and quieter. It pretty much floats during acceleration, driving and breaking. Now I know why several people with new Town Cars have jokingly said they would trade cars with me. Are there any smooth riding luxury american cars being built? Has Cadillac also gone to the lumber wagon suspension? Bailey B <Bailey_B@webtv.net> wrote in article <19886-4751654F-74@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net>... > While my 87 Town Car was being repaired at a Lincoln dealer, they let me > use a 2007 Town Car for the 2 days. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Are there any smooth riding luxury american cars being built? Has > Cadillac also gone to the lumber wagon suspension? Apparently there isn't a large demand for brand new cars that ride like a worn-out, near-antique, 20-year-old, blunderbus.....or the manufacturers would be turning them out. You are probably so used to the minor compensations you make while driving your old, worn-out and out-of-date car that the tighter suspension and steering on the newer car found you over-compensating. > Bailey B <Bailey_B@webtv.net> wrote in article > <19886-4751654F-74@storefull-3235.bay.webtv.net>... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > your old, worn-out and out-of-date car that the tighter suspension and > steering on the newer car found you over-compensating. Nope, I agree with Bailey. After driving an Acura for many years, I bought an M35 in 06'. The Acura ride was firm, but comfortable, even over crappy roads and the road feel was excellent. The M35 rides like a truck, probably because the 18" tall, 12" wide tires have very little rubber between the road and rim. There's such a small volume of air in them that they get up to 39-40 psi on the highway. Remember those solid rubber tires in the 20's.... De'ja vu. Definitely a poor engineering aspect. > Nope, I agree with Bailey. After driving an Acura for many years, I > bought an M35 in 06'. The Acura ride was firm, but comfortable, even over [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they get up to 39-40 psi on the highway. Remember those solid rubber tires > in the 20's.... De'ja vu. Definitely a poor engineering aspect. I havent owned a Ford product in a long time, because they always rode like a buckboard to me.. Engineered shimmy. This time we went with a Toyota Avalon. It has the best ride of any car I have ever ridden (to my taste, at any rate), is powerful, and gets good mileage. Maybe Mr anonymous should notify Rolls Royce that there cars handle also like old worn out blunderbuses. PS: never argue with a fool or a drunk, facts upset them. Most town car owners have had 3 or 4 of them. They pretty much say the same, in that they preferred the older models. The only car I have driven that was more comfortable was a 80s model Rolls Royce. The doors pretty much closed themselves, as if there was some sort of vacuum that closed them. Engine was so quiet i couldn't hear it running at idle. In the short distance i drove , it was even hard to sense it was moving except from seeing out the window. Virtually no vibration or shaking. When I put it in drive there was no lurch or creeping forward at idol speed like most other cars. I had to press the gas to even get it to move slowly. Now that is a true luxury comfortable car. > Most town car owners have had 3 or 4 of them. They pretty much say the > same, in that they preferred the older models. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > gas to even get it to move slowly. Now that is a true luxury > comfortable car. This is just one of those things where people's preferences differ. Most cars that I drive I find that I feel that the suspension is not tight enough. I haven't ridden in a Town Car that I recall, but every Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, etc. that I recall riding in felt horribly floaty and not secure at all to me. Personally I find the ride of my 944 to be pretty much what I think all cars should aspire to be; compliant enough not to hurt but very well controlled and not floaty at all. (well, the front end needs new struts, but that's not the fault of the design.) I'm sure, if you think an older Town Car is comfortable, that you'd find my 944 to be very unpleasant. Likewise, I'd probably be white- knucking the steering wheel on your Town Car. nate >This is just one of those things where people's preferences differ. >Most cars that I drive I find that I feel that the suspension is not >tight enough. I haven't ridden in a Town Car that I recall, but every >Crown Vic, Grand Marquis, etc. that I recall riding in felt horribly >floaty and not secure at all to me. Yeah, but get a white Crown Vic, put a few antennas on it, and NOBODY will pull you over for speeding. --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >This is just one of those things where people's preferences differ. > >Most cars that I drive I find that I feel that the suspension is not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > will pull you over for speeding. > --scott Heh. I drive a silver Impala for a company car. (it also falls into the category of floaty, barge like POS) My personal car is a Porsche 944. Guess which car I've been pulled over in twice, and which car I've never been pulled over in. The answer is *not* the obvious one. However, other drivers do assume that I'm a cop, which is real annoying when they nail the brakes in front of you - doubly so when they weren't speeding to begin with. I can't wait to get a new company car... nate > While my 87 Town Car was being repaired at a Lincoln dealer, they let me > use a 2007 Town Car for the 2 days. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > several people with new Town Cars have jokingly said they would trade > cars with me. I drove Lincoln's from that vintage as rentals when new. They exhibited the Boulevard Ride so popular with makers of american iron for so many years. I would describe it as a floaty sensation with imprecise steering, tires that felkt loose and overly soft suspension. But I'm used to cars with a frim suspension, precise steering, tires that hold the body in-line without wandering, etc. Your 20 year old car may also be suffering from a loose suspension, underinflated tires and worn shocks which would only sharpen the contrast with a new car. I've read that american car makerss have finally started to figure out that many drivers want their car to stay pointed in one direction and enjoy a firmer ride. > Are there any smooth riding luxury american cars being built? Has > Cadillac also gone to the lumber wagon suspension? > I drove Lincoln's from that vintage as rentals when new. They > exhibited the Boulevard Ride so popular with makers of american iron [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > finally started to figure out that many drivers want their car to stay > pointed in one direction and enjoy a firmer ride. That's what I love about my '66 Mopar. It has the silk smooth ride, but it also handles respectably. Mopar alone managed to combine a car that didn't rattle your teeth with the ability to go *exactly* where you pointed it. Inn contrast, the first time I drove a freshly restored '72 Cadillac I was convinced that multiple suspension parts had been left disconnected and wheels were going to come off the thing. Nope, its supposed to feel like all the bushings are gone. The current trend in steering "feedback" really annoys me. I'm convinced that since the early 90s carmakers have been *deliberately* making the power steering heavier and deader at highway speeds. The public has become convinced that "strong centering force" means "good feedback." Bzzzt. It just means big ol reaction springs and even LESS real road feedback. > That's what I love about my '66 Mopar. It has the silk smooth ride, but it > also handles respectably. Mopar alone managed to combine a car that didn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > wheels were going to come off the thing. Nope, its supposed to feel like > all the bushings are gone. My '70 Cutlass was great to drive. > The current trend in steering "feedback" really annoys me. I'm convinced > that since the early 90s carmakers have been *deliberately* making the > power steering heavier and deader at highway speeds. The public has become > convinced that "strong centering force" means "good feedback." Bzzzt. It > just means big ol reaction springs and even LESS real road feedback. I reallllly miss my Vega. I ended up doing a bunch of work to it, but it only cost me $100... and then a donor Monza later let me get ride of the four banger and auto transmisstion. Ended up with the Vega, a 3.8l engine and 4 speed trans. Could steer her with one finger and had good contact with the road. *sigh* Anyone got a decent Vega (or Astre) for sale? > > That's what I love about my '66 Mopar. It has the silk smooth ride, but it > > also handles respectably. Mopar alone managed to combine a car that didn't [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > convinced that "strong centering force" means "good feedback." Bzzzt. It > > just means big ol reaction springs and even LESS real road feedback. Sorta like the Mercedes Benz "feel". Tractor heavy steering, under- powered brakes and a gas pedal that seemingly takes two feet to depress. Yes, you can get used to it, but such teutonic masochism is of date. It does fit in well with the board-like seats. I guess such sensations are supposed to make you feel in control. > I reallllly miss my Vega. I ended up doing a bunch of work to it, but it > only cost me $100... and then a donor Monza later let me get ride of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > *sigh* Anyone got a decent Vega (or Astre) for sale? [snip] > That's what I love about my '66 Mopar. It has the silk smooth ride, > but it also handles respectably. Mopar alone managed to combine a car [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > had been left disconnected and wheels were going to come off the > thing. Nope, its supposed to feel like all the bushings are gone. hahahaha :-) Two of my cousins own vintage gliders, one 1975 Cadillac Eldorado convertible and one 1964 Thunderbird convertible. I have borrowed them when two of my kids graduated, and as my cousins live 100+ miles from here, I had to go and pick them up. The Cadillac definitely had a disconnected feel to it, and I was scared when I got to around 60 mph on a good, but fairly narrow road. It would walk all over the place and I had to constantly adjust the direction. The T-bird was also bad, but no where near the Cadillac. After dropping the Caddy off again I drove home in my audi a6 diesel, which probably is the same weight as either of the battle ships above, but oh so much better handling. >The Cadillac definitely had a disconnected feel to it, and I was >scared when I got to around 60 mph on a good, but fairly narrow >road. It would walk all over the place and I had to constantly adjust >the direction. I absolutely cannot stand that whole feeling of being on a sponge gliding off the surface of the road. You could drive over a curb and through a school and probably never even notice it. >The T-bird was also bad, but no where near the Cadillac. The current model Lincoln Continental is probably worse than anything else available new in that regard. The original poster may want to try driving one. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > The current trend in steering "feedback" really annoys me. I'm convinced > that since the early 90s carmakers have been *deliberately* making the > power steering heavier and deader at highway speeds. The public has > become convinced that "strong centering force" means "good feedback." > Bzzzt. It just means big ol reaction springs and even LESS real road > feedback. __________________ The Germans and most Japanese makers have been used to "strong centering force" for decades. This is contributed to by something called Steering-Axis-Inclination(kingpin for the old schoolers) combined with Caster. I haven't been able to track trends in American car setups with regard to SAI/Caster because alignment specs are not $Freely$ available on this great thing called the internet - but I would imagine that more of both, particularly SAI, have been applied to domestics over the last 10 years. Not sure if I understand anything else in that last paragraph though - by "heavier and deader" do you mean less power steering is applied at highway speeds, or more? And I'm not sure how you connect centering force with "good feedback". -CC >>The current trend in steering "feedback" really annoys me. I'm convinced >>that since the early 90s carmakers have been *deliberately* making the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The Germans and most Japanese makers have been used to "strong > centering force" for decades. Imports good, American bad, blah blah woof woof bullshit. They're all the same in the behavior I'm talking about. > This is contributed to by something > called Steering-Axis-Inclination(kingpin for the old schoolers) > combined with Caster. True enough, and that is REAL centering force that is generated in the suspension/road interaction and transmitted back to the driver through the steering gear. Modern cars do not exhibit that at all. Modern cars tend to have a very synthetic feel to the centering force that is obviously not due to SAI, but is artificially generated in the power steering valving and reaction spring selection. Its very easy to tell the difference for anyone who's owned a manual-steering car and has experimented with different alignment parameters such as varying SAI, caster, and camber to improve handling. But the car-as-an-appliance crowd has just been brainwashed into thinking "huge centering force means this car is built for handling" which is bogus. > ChrisCoasterwrote: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > crowd has just been brainwashed into thinking "huge centering force > means this car is built for handling" which is bogus. _____________________________________ So what you're saying is that power-steering systems can be designed to "mimic" the very real effects of different SAI & Caster settings from vehicle to vehicle? Scary. I would think this might lead an unwary driver into pushing the car too far - into a turn, accelling out of one, all the while completely isolated from the feedback generated by these parameters. And no, I'm not putting all American or all import cars under the same blanket by saying one has better steering feel than the other. But we are all aware of the proverbial "Buick" feel(one finger looped over the steeringwheel at 12 o'clock). Not all Buicks from all decades exhibited that feel, I'm sure. I personally would rather have a car with a lot of SAI(13-15 deg), and minimal caster(1-2 deg), and powersteering that imposed itself progressively LESS at anything over 20mph. I'd like to hear more about how modern power-steering systems can mimic a strong SAI, via steering wheel position and by steering gear position, and the computers involved. It's a scary marketing tool intended to differentiate a Buick from a Chevy from a Pontiac, but not based on the real laws of physics. -CC > > I drove Lincoln's from that vintage as rentals when new. They > > exhibited the Boulevard Ride so popular with makers of american iron [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Bzzzt. It just means big ol reaction springs and even LESS real road > feedback. Well, done right, it could also mean lots of caster dialed into the suspension with power assist decreasing with speed, but who knows if they really did it that way. Older BMWs had really great power steering setups, and they weren't even rack and pinion but the traditional recirculating ball type. nate |
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