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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2007Check Engine light - code P0420
I have a '97 Lexus ES300 and got a check engine light 2 days ago. I got it checked and it comes up with a P0420 code. The code description says "Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)". As I understand, it could be due to a defective catalytic converter, damaged O2 ensors, contamination of converter due to incorrect sealant, fuel, or fuel additive. I had 2 repairs/services done on my car in the past 6 weeks: 1) I had replaced the flex pipe and the catalytic converter about 6 weeks ago. The flex pipe was leaking and the exhaust was making a lot of noise. My mechanic advised that I also replace the cat. I got the aftermarket (generic) flex pipe and cat. 2) I had a service done a week ago. I got the transmission liquid flushed, radiator coolant flushed and fuel injection service done. My guess is I am getting this code due to something gone wrong in either of the above 2 repairs/services. The most obvious cause would seem to be the first one, but I don't know if I can rule out the second one as that was the most recent one ( a week ago). I would appreciate if someone could help me with this. Could the second service cause P0420 to be set? Or is it possible that I just got a bad converter in repair 1? If yes, then would it take upto 6 weeks for the code to be set? Any additional advice or suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks, Mark > 2) I had a service done a week ago. I got the transmission liquid > flushed, radiator coolant flushed and fuel injection service done. > I would appreciate if someone could help me with this. Could the > second service cause P0420 to be set? Or is it possible that I just > got a bad converter in repair 1? If yes, then would it take upto 6 > weeks for the code to be set? I'm only guessing here.... - Could the injection servicing include gasoline additives that may cause "odd" readings in the exhaust gases? - Is there a harness that should connect to the cat that isn't present in the replacement "generic" cat? most times the converter can be better off with a injection service if the right product is used > > 2) I had a service done a week ago. I got the transmission liquid > > flushed, radiator coolant flushed and fuel injection service done. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > - Is there a harness that should connect to the cat that isn't present in > the replacement "generic" cat? could be the converter you got is not correct for your lex > I have a '97 Lexus ES300 and got a check engine light 2 days ago. I > got it checked and it comes up with a P0420 code. The code description [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Thanks, > Mark > I have a '97 Lexus ES300 and got a check engine light 2 days ago. I > got it checked and it comes up with a P0420 code. The code description [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Thanks, > Mark ======== ======== Go BACK to the shop that did the FLUSH's...... explain that the light came on jest after getting the injector flush service and ask them to PULL the codes AGAIN...... AND please CLEAR the codes so you can see IF they come back, or better, how quickly they may comeback. Have them MONITOR the Oxygen sensors DURING a TEST DRIVE!! See if the sensors are reacting quickly, crisply, and changing under various fuel demands. (heavy acell...cruise...decell from cruising speeds) Make sure they check HISTORY and PENDING codes while they're doing this. These codes, if any, help in the diagnostic process. IF......the codes reset...or if the shop gives you a bit more info to go on.....do a repost with ALL they're findings and let's take a stab it. However....if you feel yer lible to be anass to them...git high tempered easy..maybe gonna chewsomeass over they're service that caused yer light to come on..............so that they charge you fer a service that they'de otherwise be more than likely to offer for free to someone that MITE spend more money with them...... then in that case....... let's guess and save you and them all the heartache aye.... :) the Fuel System service caused the light to come on......... the Fuel mixture is now rich... the injectors were cleaned and now one or more is NOT sealing or the service mucked up either the front or rear sensor on that bank. jest a guess...... :) ~:~ MarshMonster ~takes a toke......sorts his seeds.......no need in guess'n if next years crop is a good one~ ~:~ The O2 sensors are monitored closely by the OBDII system and will throw a code if they get sluggish or amplitude/current are out of specs. The most probable cause is a Catalytic converter that is not good enough for a high performance engine. The generic cats may work on a four cylinder engine but fail quickly with a high performance six. Also the second O2 sensor is not always in the right place. A god mechanic with an OBDII tester can analyze the problem and determine where the problem is. This problem also shows up after a blocked EGR problem that prevailed for a period of time. >> I have a '97 Lexus ES300 and got a check engine light 2 days ago. I >> got it checked and it comes up with a P0420 code. The code description [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > if next years crop is a good one~ > ~:~ In article <1e2d8d19-88eb-42ea-9dc6-2ba7ee49edbd@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.co m>, > the Fuel System service caused the light to come on......... You don't know that. > the Fuel mixture is now rich... It is? Funny, a P0420, is pretty clearly defined. > the injectors were cleaned and now one or more is NOT sealing or > the service mucked up either the front or rear sensor on that bank. Nope, got nothing to do with catalytic convertor efficiency. > jest a guess...... Not a very good one. > :) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > if next years crop is a good one~ > ~:~ We can expect further brain damage? Thanks everyone for your responses. Though I am still confused at this point. I would atleast like to get an idea of whether this is caused by my replacement of flexpipe/cat. converter or the fuel injection service. Without taking any guesses, can somebody point me in the right direction based on their experience? Could a fuel injection service indeed cause the CEL with reason code P0420 - catalytic converter efficiency low? > Thanks everyone for your responses. Though I am still confused at this > point. I would atleast like to get an idea of whether this is caused [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > service indeed cause the CEL with reason code P0420 - catalytic > converter efficiency low? ========== ========== Scroll up.......read Woody's post carefully.......... The computer puts out the code based on not seeing a large enough difference between the front sensor reading and the rear sensor reading, which is the ONLY way the computer can tell if the gass's are being burnt off by the converter. There in.....the "efficiency" part of the code definition. The code IS NOT saying.....bad cat..rich exhaust...02 sensor.. or ANYTHING else other than the computer thinks the cat isn't doing it's job BASED on the fact ALONE that the two readings are NOT within specs. IF.........too much fuel was entering the converter....and the converter is not CAPABLE, for whatever reason, to burn off the excess to a point that lowers the rear reading to within factory parameters for an efficient catalytic activity.....then THAT code WILL set. IF......the replacement catalyst DID NOT set the code for over 5 WEEKS.......AND..you were putting the same amount of milieage as you always have....on the car...then, for 5 weeks the computer saw the converter able to do it's job. IF.....you had the fuel system flushed....and the code SET within 3 DAYS........AND..you were putting the SAME amount of mileage on as you always have.......on the car.......then, in 3 days the computer saw THE FAILURE PARAMETERS....... (note the the wording).....had been met to set the code. NOW.......a DRIVE CYCLE is a factory preprogramed set of variable parameters that MUST be met BEFORE that code will set. I'm not sure, i could look it up, i'm not going to, i don't care, it doesn't really matter at this point.........What the drive cycle for the particuler code is. What does matter, what I do know, what is fact, what the case is...........is that......the car HAS TO BE.......cranked up....warmed up...driven a decent distance... gas pedal mashed and released several times.....brought to a stop....sped back up........gotton hot.....cooled off........and DONE ALL OVER AGAIN SEVERAL TIMES......... BEFORE THE CODE WILL SET. A guess..??.........i'd guess around 3 or 4.........unless you've omitted the fact that you've had the computer codes cleared previously....for whatever reason... :) so.......IF you drove the car for 5 weeks.......no codes...... then worked on the car.....and then 3 DAYS later....CODES..... well........yer smart enough to navigate the internet.....i'm shure you can figure it out. :) oh........and......one more thing.........GO BACK AND GIT THE FREE SCAN AND TEST DRIVE LIKE I TOLD YOU TOOOOOOOO.... cuz......like WOODY said in HIS post....... a good tech.......will see it QUICK....... :) Read Woody's post again...read what he typed. Read my original post.......what i typed.....not what you, or others......think i typed. anywhooooooo.......... remember......if it wasn't broke before you fixed it, you broke it fix'n it. fact, not fiction ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke......watch's the readings on the 4gas as he cleans the throttlebody~ In article <25b5f8b6-5f42-4a0f-bacc-a4095bc44094@t47g2000hsc.googlegroups.co m>, > > Thanks everyone for your responses. Though I am still confused at this > > point. I would atleast like to get an idea of whether this is caused [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Scroll up.......read Woody's post carefully.......... Indeed, you should also. > The computer puts out the code based on not seeing > a large enough difference between the front sensor reading > and the rear sensor reading, which is the ONLY way the > computer can tell if the gass's are being burnt off by the > converter. it's got nothing to do with gass's (sic) being burnt (sic) off by the convertor. It's got everything to do with oxygen storage and nothing more. > There in.....the "efficiency" part of the code definition. > > The code IS NOT saying.....bad cat..rich exhaust...02 sensor.. Apparently, you were. > or ANYTHING else other than the computer thinks the cat > isn't doing it's job BASED on the fact ALONE that the two > readings are NOT within specs. Uh, no. the computer 'thinks" that the cat can't store oxygen as it is supposed to. > IF.........too much fuel was entering the converter....and the > converter is not CAPABLE, for whatever reason, to burn off > the excess to a point that lowers the rear reading to within > factory parameters for an efficient catalytic activity.....then THAT > code WILL set. You really-REALLY need some driveability classes. i.e., why don't cat efficiency codes set when the engine is operated at wide open throttle (rich exhaust)? > IF......the replacement catalyst DID NOT set the code for over > 5 WEEKS.......AND..you were putting the same amount of > milieage as you always have....on the car...then, for 5 weeks > the computer saw the converter able to do it's job. His replacement cat was at best 40-45% efficient as installed, and it went down from there as soon as he drove away from whatever lame-brain shop installed it. > IF.....you had the fuel system flushed....and the code SET within > 3 DAYS........AND..you were putting the SAME amount of > mileage on as you always have.......on the car.......then, in 3 > days the computer saw THE FAILURE PARAMETERS....... > (note the the wording).....had been met to set the code. Not that I'm an advocate of wallet flushes but, an injector flush using the proper materials should not in any way effect the performance of a properly functioning catalytic convertor. > NOW.......a DRIVE CYCLE is a factory preprogramed set of > variable parameters that MUST be met BEFORE that code will > set. I'm not sure, i could look it up, i'm not going to, i don't > care, > it doesn't really matter at this point......... Actually, it does. It's entirely possible that during the 5 weeks, he never drove the vehicle under conditions that would meet the enable criteria. The industry is full of tales of emissions monitors that won't run even after two months. > What the drive cycle > for the particuler code is. What does matter, what I do know, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the computer codes cleared previously....for whatever reason... > :) Further proving that it's possible that the enable criteria was never met during those 5 weeks. > so.......IF you drove the car for 5 weeks.......no codes...... > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > cuz......like WOODY said in HIS post....... > a good tech.......will see it QUICK....... yeah, a one knee on the ground look at the aftermarket cat. > :) > > Read Woody's post again...read what he typed. yup! > Read my original post.......what i typed.....not what you, > or others......think i typed. Do you even -know- what you typed? > anywhooooooo.......... > remember......if it wasn't broke before you fixed it, > you broke it fix'n it. IF it was fixed in the first place. > fact, not fiction > > ~:~ > marsh > ~takes a toke......watch's the readings on the 4gas as he > cleans the throttlebody~ Workin' on a Sunday so you can someday afford a 5 gas? aarcuda69062 <nonelson@sbcglobal.net> wrote in news:nonelson- ED5C72.00072703122007@news.chi.sbcglobal.net: > In article > <25b5f8b6-5f42-4a0f-bacc-a4095bc44094@t47g2000hsc.googlegroups.co > m>, > Uh, no. the computer 'thinks" that the cat can't store oxygen as > it is supposed to. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > operated at wide open throttle (rich exhaust)? > It doesn't take long for even somebody not in the industry to find out how a P0420 is set. It is set when the catalytic converter fails the ECM's cat efficiency test. The test is, from my readings, this: The ECM commands rich for 5 seconds to drain the cat of oxygen. Then it commands lean for five seconds, measuring how long it takes for the secondary sensor to start flip-flopping. If the rear sensor flip-flops too soon, the ECM assumes the cat's unable to store sufficient oxygen, and sets the P0420. I also understand that there are certain unusual circumstances that can lead to a P0420 even when the cat's fine. These would include air leaks into the exhaust after the primary sensor, or before the secondary. Also, certain Honda models (I know the OP's car is a Toyota) have problems with the igniter electrical connections that can lead to a false P0420.  SignatureTegger ====== ====== aarcuda69062 <nonel...@sbcglobal.net ((spewed forth more insight into his inability to)) ((comprehend simplified systems with these )) ((insertions to MarshMonster)) . . Uh, no. the computer 'thinks" that the cat can't store oxygen as it is supposed to. . . . You really-REALLY need some driveability classes. i.e., why don't cat efficiency codes set when the engine is operated at wide open throttle (rich exhaust)? . Workin' on a Sunday so you can someday afford a 5 gas?- ========= ========= Concerning youre first statement...........where does this Cat get the oxygen from, and exactly where does it store it ?? :) Concerning your second statement........hmmmmm I would jest refer you to YOUR 1 SPARK EVERY 3 SECONDS ON A SPARK PLUG post...........but ......... ok.......i'll GIVE you one more insight into BASIC computer strategy.... by simply asking you......... YOU...rectom the OE designers figured vehicles would always run at the SAME temp, SAME rpm, SAME throttle setting...etc..etc... or YOU rectom.......THEY...were a bit smarter than YOU....and THEY......made the "black box" able to understand that variables exist under different operating parameters?? OH....and.....jest like the other thread.....don't appologize.... jest say....."oops" again.. :) As to yer last question...........I don't work Sundays. :) ~:~ marsh ~sips his shroom juice......mmmmm.......good stuff~ ~:~ In article <3772be42-e3b8-46c9-9132-c63388f225bc@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.co m>, > ====== > ====== [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Concerning youre first statement...........where does this > Cat get the oxygen from, and exactly where does it store it ?? It's not surprising that you wouldn't know this. <snicker> The answer to the first part is; the atmosphere (duh), which is usually around 21% oxygen but it varies depending on how much dope *you're* smoking in proximity. You know, that air fuel ratio thing. The answer to the second part is; the Cerium wash coat. Like I said, you need some classes because this stuff is (well) over a decade old. > :) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > THEY......made the "black box" able to understand that variables > exist under different operating parameters?? This has nothing to do with whether or not I am smarter than the OE engineers. Oxygen sensors DO NOT react to raw fuel as you implied in your post, the post cat O2 will not set a efficiency code just because an engine is/was over fueled as your post implied. > OH....and.....jest like the other thread.....don't appologize.... > jest say....."oops" again.. Speaking of other posts, do you want to take another shot at spelling 'definitely'? (hint; there is no "a") > As to yer last question...........I don't work Sundays. Well, you posted on Sunday and mentioned that you were watching the "4 gass" while fiddling with the throttle body. So, the real case here is; you felt need for a clever buzz word to lend some credibility to your asinine statements. So, tell me about your "4 gass", what brand is it? Is it a non-dispersive infra red or flame ionization bench? Does it have constant volume sampling? Does it allow for corrected NOx sampling? > :) > > ~:~ > marsh > ~sips his shroom juice......mmmmm.......good stuff~ > ~:~ . <<INLINE>> ====== ====== . It's not surprising that you wouldn't know this. <snicker> . ~~who said.........i didn't know ? !! ?? <chuckle,chuckle>~~ . . . The answer to the first part is; the atmosphere (duh), which is usually around 21% oxygen but it varies depending on how much dope *you're* smoking in proximity. . ~~so......what's the atmosphere like INSIDE a 2000 degree cat that's been running down the road for over an hour? <chuckle,chuckle>~~ . . . You know, that air fuel ratio thing. The answer to the second part is; the Cerium wash coat. Like I said, you need some classes because this stuff is (well) over a decade old. . ~~yep......and so am I....and tell me.......how MANY googles does it take to git to the center of a tootsie pop? <lmao>~~ . . . This has nothing to do with whether or not I am smarter than the OE engineers. Oxygen sensors DO NOT react to raw fuel as you implied in your post, the post cat O2 will not set a efficiency code just because an engine is/was over fueled as your post implied. . ~~well.....you PROVED with yer count to 3 and ck the spark post.....that you're nowhere near as smart as the engineers..... so........we'll jest let that one drop. HOWEVER....<chuckle>... I DID NOT, never, once,ever,nope.....IMPLY...the code was set ""because an engine is/was over fueled""................... nope...didn't. <<chuckle..giggle..toke...>>~~ . ~~go back...ck what i wrote..not what you read.... <<giggle..toke...sip...chukle...highashellnow>>~~ . . . Speaking of other posts, do you want to take another shot at spelling 'definitely'? (hint; there is no "a") . ~~cool...........thanks........now there's some info i kin use~~ :) . . . Well, you posted on Sunday and mentioned that you were watching the "4 gass" while fiddling with the throttle body. So, the real case here is; you felt need for a clever buzz word to lend some credibility to your asinine statements. . ~~I NEVER !!!!...........fact not fiction, again...go back... reed whut i writ not whut you red...<toke..chukle>~ . . . So, tell me about your "4 gass", what brand is it? Is it a non-dispersive infra red or flame ionization bench? Does it have constant volume sampling? Does it allow for corrected NOx sampling? . ~~It's hooked to a $10,000 Allen scope......whut's yers hooked to? ....<<shroom sip...toke....lol...>>~~ ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke........hits the spell cheeker button.........don't want no net fuzz....writ'n him no tikets~ In article <70c39373-a097-4269-8128-6f3ab5507d23@s19g2000prg.googlegroups.co m>, > . > <<INLINE>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > . > ~~who said.........i didn't know ? !! ?? <chuckle,chuckle>~~ You did in numerous ways. > . > . [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cat that's been running down the road for over an hour? > <chuckle,chuckle>~~ Well, <chuckle, chuckle> i would best describe it as 'problematic' since the normal operating temperature of a catalytic convertor in a properly functioning system is no where NEAR 2000 degrees. Once again, buzz words and cliches fail you. > . > . [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > does it take to git to the center of a tootsie pop? > <lmao>~~ You're probably the only one here that can answer that... > . > . [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ~~well.....you PROVED with yer count to 3 and ck the spark > post.....that you're nowhere near as smart as the engineers..... I made a math mistake and owned up to it. That hardly makes me wrong about everything else, unless of course I'm dealing with someone in a desperate situation. > so........we'll jest let that one drop. I doubt you would. > HOWEVER....<chuckle>... > I DID NOT, never, once,ever,nope.....IMPLY...the code was set [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ~~go back...ck what i wrote..not what you read.... > <<giggle..toke...sip...chukle...highashellnow>>~~ Okay: In article <1e2d8d19-88eb-42ea-9dc6-2ba7ee49edbd@a35g2000prf.googlegroups.co m>, " the Fuel System service caused the light to come on........." "the Fuel mixture is now rich..." " the injectors were cleaned and now one or more is NOT sealing ." There's the article number and your statements. So, you're either a liar or too stoned to remember what you wrote. Either way, you're worthless. > . > . [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > . > ~~cool...........thanks........now there's some info i kin use~~ Indeed! > :) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ~~I NEVER !!!!...........fact not fiction, again...go back... > reed whut i writ not whut you red...<toke..chukle>~ On Sunday December 2, In article <25b5f8b6-5f42-4a0f-bacc-a4095bc44094@t47g2000hsc.googlegroups.co m>, ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke......watch's the readings on the 4gas as he cleans the throttlebody~ Again, either way, you're a liar, and a fool for using a 4 gas while cleaning a throttle body. > . > . [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > . > ~~It's hooked to a $10,000 Allen scope...... Allen went tits up what, 15 years ago? An antique. AND, you haven't answered the rest of the question. ('cuz you have no clue) > whut's yers hooked to? A $4000 Panasonic Toughbook, which sits on a shelf below a $12,000 Snap-On scope which is two drawers above a Sun LS 2000 labscope which is in the drawer above the drawer which holds $20,000 worth of scan tools, OEM and aftermarket. >Thanks everyone for your responses. Though I am still confused at this >point. I would atleast like to get an idea of whether this is caused [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >service indeed cause the CEL with reason code P0420 - catalytic >converter efficiency low? The computer looks at the results of the two oxygen sensors, and if the difference is out of range, it throws this code. This code COULD be because the converter isn't any good, or isn't correct. Or it COULD be because a lot of junk was thrown into the converter briefly (maybe during the injection cleaning) and it couldn't deal with it. A scan tool that can actually look at the sensor readings will tell you which of these is the case. Alternately you can just reset the code and see if it comes back. If it comes back, it wasn't due to the injector cleaning. But right now you don't have enough information to be sure. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Alternately you can just reset the code and see if it comes back. If it > comes back, it wasn't due to the injector cleaning. So if I reset the code and it comes back, then it is not due to fuel injection cleaning? I could use this approach to eliminate this service and the it would point to maybe a damaged converter? ======= ======= On Dec 4, 5:54 pm, Mark > So if I reset the code and it comes back, then it is not due to fuel injection cleaning? I could use this approach to eliminate this service and the it would point to maybe a damaged converter? ========= ========= What IF....that cleaning busted loose enough crap THROUGHOUT the system and SOME this CRAP is now BAKED on yer sensor/sensors?? but...... you do what you want........ I'VE DONE TOLD YER DUMBASS TO CARRY IT TO THE FLUSH DUDE AND GIT IT LOOKED AT FOR FK'N FREE!!!!!!!!!!! but........ clear the codes if you want..... then....if the codes comeback...... go blame the dude that put the convertor on..... jest do this when you do...... make sure you tell HIM.....that system was flushed AFTER the convertor was put on.........i mean........ we do wanna be HONEST here .......rite?? :) ~:~ MarshMonster ~takes a toke.......wonders if anyone here has been smart enough to google this subjest.........takes a toke......lhao~ ~:~ In article <cf1d51be-c2b7-4593-884b-e33e5a6f2122@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com >, > ======= > ======= [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > What IF....that cleaning busted loose enough crap THROUGHOUT the > system and SOME this CRAP is now BAKED on yer sensor/sensors?? How about; there would be O2 sensor performance codes setting instead of cat efficiency codes. <sheesh> > but...... > > you do what you want........ > > I'VE DONE TOLD YER DUMBASS TO CARRY IT TO THE FLUSH DUDE > AND GIT IT LOOKED AT FOR FK'N FREE!!!!!!!!!!! Because even though there are thousands of fuel injector flush services done every day, there is yet no industry wide problem with those services causing catalytic convertor failures in spite of the fact that aftermarket convertors are known to be less than 50% efficient (which is no where near good enough) right out of the box? > but........ > > clear the codes if you want..... > then....if the codes comeback...... > go blame the dude that put the convertor on..... For trying the cheap way out. > jest do this when you do...... > > make sure you tell HIM.....that system was flushed AFTER > the convertor was put on.........i mean........ Do these convertors come with a warning that injector flushing is not allowed and/or will void any warranty? (feel free to post a copy) > we do wanna be HONEST here .......rite?? Why, you're not. > :) > > ~:~ > MarshMonster > ~takes a toke.......wonders if anyone here has been smart enough > to google this subjest.........takes a toke......lhao~ Some of us don't need to because we actually do it every day for a living. So Mr. Doobie, how many times a day do you use Google to repair your customers vehicles? > In article > <cf1d51be-c2b7-4593-884b-e33e5a6f2...@d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > So Mr. Doobie, how many times a day do you use Google to repair > your customers vehicles? ========== ========== NEVER.......I use MOD........ :) ~:~ marsh ~sips his crownroyal~ ~:~ In article <ed65692b-9a4c-4a1e-8706-c48e9bf34b09@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.co m>, > > So Mr. Doobie, how many times a day do you use Google to repair > > your customers vehicles? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > NEVER.......I use MOD........ Really? Where in Mitchell do they instruct tying knots in brake lines? Where in Mitchell do they describe making a bubble flare by using a double flaring tool? > > Alternately you can just reset the code and see if it comes back. If it > > comes back, it wasn't due to the injector cleaning. > > So if I reset the code and it comes back, then it is not due to fuel > injection cleaning? I could use this approach to eliminate this > service and the it would point to maybe a damaged converter? =============== ================ The flush did it. there......i said it.......now i feel better. :) ~:~ marsh ~smokes a big ole hooter.....~ ~:~ >> Alternately you can just reset the code and see if it comes back. If it >> comes back, it wasn't due to the injector cleaning. > >So if I reset the code and it comes back, then it is not due to fuel >injection cleaning? I could use this approach to eliminate this >service and the it would point to maybe a damaged converter? Umm... yes. The fuel injection cleaning isn't doing any permanent damage to anything. It's just dumping a lot of crap out of the tailpipe for a short while. A damaged (or incorrect) converter is permanent damage. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Thanks everyone for your insights, suggestions and advice. This forum offers a lot of expert advice from different people with different point of views and experiences, and thats what makes it so valuable. I appreciate everyone taking their precious time to respond. I just wanted to post an update that my check engine light went away this evening. I did not do anything yet. I went to work in the morning and the light was on. When returning from work, I turned on the car and the light was gone. I have made a couple of short trips since then and the light has not come back on. Based on this occurence, I would again have to lean on the experts here to understand what this means, and if it may have temporarily disappeared and could return again. Another problem that I didn't bring up earlier, as I did not want to divert attention from the CEL problem, was that my fuel mileage had dropped since I had replaced the catalytic converter. Previously I would get about 24mpg and after replacing the converter I am getting around 20mpg. I noticed the drop in mileage after replacing the cat and before the fuel injection service. I have to ask this dumb question, but can the replacement of the cat. converter cause a drop in the mileage too (i.e. if I have a bad cat.) ? Thanks everyone for your help. question, but can the replacement of the cat. converter cause a drop > in the mileage too (i.e. if I have a bad cat.) ? It doesn't have to be defective to cause a mileage drop. It could simply be a poorer design that restricts exhaust flow more than the OEM cat. This is one of the items that I'd stick with OEM unless I had proof the replacement would be better. > question, but can the replacement of the cat. converter cause a drop >> in the mileage too (i.e. if I have a bad cat.) ? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This is one of the items that I'd stick with OEM unless I had proof the > replacement would be better. Replacements are almost never better. i use alot of after market replacement converters with no issues i just make sure it is for the correct app. i have also found on some asian cars the idle is set to a higher mark at start up so the pre cats get heated up as fast as possible. to get a more accurate 02 readings i have replaced a few iac's that wasn't reaching target idle specs resulting in cat eff. codes > > question, but can the replacement of the cat. converter cause a drop > >> in the mileage too (i.e. if I have a bad cat.) ? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > Replacements are almost never better. ======= ======= i use alot of after market replacement converters with no issues i just make sure it is for the correct app. ======= ======= The universal ones cause the most issues.......the OP has yet to say what he PAID for the cat...which would be a GOOD indicator of whether the one installed on his vehicle was a Direct Fit replacement or.....a universal cat....which, price alone isn't a gaurantee that a Direct Fit was used...some, alot, many.....muffler shops......install universals and CHARGE for Direct Fit. FACT, not fiction. anywhoooooo.......... did i ever mention the time i worked for....... CATCO ??? no......oh......ok. :) ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke.......mmmmmm.......gooooood stuff~ ~:~ In article <ee7fbac8-8646-4842-8237-49fc9c81ffb6@r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.co m>, > did i ever mention the time i worked for....... > CATCO ??? No, but so what? They make crap. > Thanks everyone for your insights, suggestions and advice. This forum > offers a lot of expert advice from different people with different [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Thanks everyone for your help. ============ ============ As to yer 1st two paragraphs........that's bout the nicest way ANYONE has ever told me to fk off. :) and.........YES.......the cat may cause the drop. oh........and........YOU'RE FREEK'N FLUSH CAUSED THE LIGHT TO COME ON. :) ok.......so i said it again.......i feel better again. :) ~:~ marsh ~sips his crownroyal......takes a toke.....farts a big one........ ooooch...........backpreasure~~ ~:~ > I just wanted to post an update that my check engine light went away > this evening. I did not do anything yet. I went to work in the morning [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks everyone for your help. My check engine light came back on. So in a matter of the past 2 weeks, the light came on, then went off and came back on. Someone had mentioned earlier in this post to reset the light and see if it comes back on, which it did without me manually resetting it. Also someone asked about how much I paid. I paid $250 for the flex pipe + converter, and yes, this is most likely a universal converter and not a direct fit as the mechanic had to weld it in. I did take my car back to the mechanic (the light was off that time), he inspected and did not find any leaks. He still welded it again just to close any minor leaks that may be present. The light came back on a couple of days later, so don't think the second round of welding did any good. Other than this, he does not see anything wrong in 'his' converter. What are my options at this point? Do I have to now go and buy a new OEM converter? >I did take my car back to the mechanic (the light was off that time), >he inspected and did not find any leaks. He still welded it again just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >What are my options at this point? Do I have to now go and buy a new >OEM converter? That would be my next suggestion, if you don't want to just ignore the error. Personally, if it were me, I'd just ignore it as long as it did not interfere with the engine running or result in excessive emissions. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." ======== ======== >> >What are my options at this point? Do I have to now go and buy a new > >OEM converter? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not interfere with the engine running or result in excessive emissions. > --scott ========= ========= Scott........ hmmmmmmm............. and how do you find out ......IF.........there are excessive emissions ?? . I mean.......the code definition and all that.......and the fact that YOU think the next step should be another converter?? . . anywhoooo......... The FLUSH caused it............. besides.....i digress.......no one has stated WHY...or ASKED why.... the converter was changed........or the flush was done.. :) I mean.......did we jest willy nilly decide to run on down to the local exhaust shop and chunk'm a few bucks cuz dey looked like good fellers and their bays were empty?? :) And then......we happened to notice that the feller across the street looked sad and lonely and all outta sorts cuz he's not get'n his fair share from us ........so's.........we jest drove on in there and chunk'd a few bucks down on a service........jest fer giggles?? :) or......is it possible that ALL THIS REPAIR WORK was initiated because............... lol........naw...... he wudda mentioned that......i'm shure. :) anywhoooooo..... if...NOTHING WAS WRONG WITH THE CAR ....BEFORE.. all this......then......like i said......THE FLUSH CAUSED THE FREEK'N LIGHT TO COME ON !!! there......i said it again.....i feel better once more. :) but.....if all this work wuz'nt done jest outta the kindest of the heart towards lowely, honest, well trusted, never feared, always believed... auto techs.......and there WAS a problem BEFORE all the work was initiated......THAT DIDN'T GET MENTIONED....... :) well then...... fk me..........i mite be wrong. :) ~:~ marsh ~takes a sip of his shroom juice.......takes a toke...... wonders......is he the only one so fk'd up here that he can see into another realm~ ~:~ >>> >What are my options at this point? Do I have to now go and buy a new >> >OEM converter? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and how do you find out ......IF.........there are excessive >emissions ?? You stick it on the emissions tester. Presumably this was done when the converter was changed, but maybe not. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > >>> >What are my options at this point? Do I have to now go and buy a new > >> >OEM converter? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > -- > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." =========== =========== First rule of mechanics........ never assume to presume anything......!! and...... my monies on probly NOT.....and ...probly not since! :) ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke~ ~:~ In article <69edf629-566e-4845-883b-bd13ec674a55@q3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com >, > Scott........ > hmmmmmmm............. > and how do you find out ......IF.........there are excessive > emissions ?? Irrelevant. The trouble code is for catalytic converter efficiency. Efficiency is measured by how well the catalyst stores oxygen. > I mean.......the code definition and all that....... Good place to base the diagnostics at. > and the fact that > YOU think the next step should be another converter?? You think those cheap sh.t universal convertors are anywhere as efficient as OEM? > . > . > anywhoooo......... > The FLUSH caused it............. Maybe, maybe not. > besides.....i digress.......no one has stated WHY... The OP stated why in his first post. Leaking flex pipe. You're not familiar with Toyota flex pipes? > or ASKED why.... > the converter was changed........ Didn't need doing. Explained in the OPs first post. > or the flush was done.. What difference does it make. > :) > > I mean.......did we jest willy nilly decide to run on down to the > local exhaust shop and chunk'm a few bucks cuz dey looked like > good fellers and their bays were empty?? Marsh can't read. > :) > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > lol........naw...... > he wudda mentioned that......i'm shure. He did. leaking flex pipe. > :) > > anywhoooooo..... > if...NOTHING WAS WRONG WITH THE CAR ....BEFORE.. > all this......then......like i said......THE FLUSH CAUSED THE > FREEK'N LIGHT TO COME ON !!! Or the cheap sh.t aftermarket converter is causing it. > there......i said it again.....i feel better once more. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > auto techs.......and there WAS a problem BEFORE all the work was > initiated......THAT DIDN'T GET MENTIONED....... Did get mentioned. Leaking flex pipe. > :) > > well then...... > fk me..........i mite be wrong. Obviously. > :) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > into another realm~ > ~:~ Yes, you're the only one. ===== ===== ~:~ marsh ~takes a sip of his shroom juice.......takes a toke...... wonders......is he the only one so fk'd up here that he can see into another realm~ ~:~ ========== ========== Yes, you're the only one.- ===== ===== jest as i thunked :) ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke......~ ~:~ ======== ======== I did take my car back to the mechanic (the light was off that time), he inspected and did not find any leaks. He still welded it again just to close any minor leaks that may be present. The light came back on a couple of days later, so don't think the second round of welding did any good. Other than this, he does not see anything wrong in 'his' converter. What are my options at this point? Do I have to now go and buy a new OEM converter?- > ============= ============= . SapSucker.......a direct question.....dammit.... . i do much more prefer the vague ones. ok......here we go.......YOUR opitons are FEW !! . YOUR FIRST OPTION...that you should utilize should be to GO FIND YERARSE ANOTHER TECHNICIAN !! Because the one you're using either doesn't know what he's doing, doesn't care, doesn't wanna work on it, doesn't like you, or is as dumb as a rock !! (sorry so blunt..but..it was a direct question) Your FIRST OPTION ..to be excercised should be done so with care, understanding, forsight, and a basic knowledge of what you're attempting to acomplish. Namely,, find out if the fk'n O2 sensors are EVEN WORKING AT THIS POINT like THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO! A little more involved than simply hooking up a wave form scanner and seeing a few spikes, or, for the "old school" techs who have'nt upgraded in the last 10 years, using a plane ole code reader with data line acquistion that has a baud rate slower than the ignition circuit AARCUDA jest got through diagnosing.....1 hit every 3 seconds!!! (i make me giggle) Make sure this tech has, can use, can understand what he's reading, on an exhaust gas analyzer. If the assprobe is reading good...then the .....(ooops.....gas probe).....CAT is good. anywhoooo.........go find yerself a tech that can use a freekin scope to ck the O2 sensors....and one that KNOWS what he's doing instead of guessing. cuz....my GUESS.....is..that the flush....either contaminated the convertor or the sensors, created an unbalanced fuel mixture.. (and ALL that that entails)........or......you may have, possibly, without malice, untentionally.....LEFT OUT SOME VERY IMPORTANT DIAGNOSTIC INFO.......like ......mmmm......is that flexpipe..... the ONLY ...reason..you went into the shop in the first place?? :) ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke.......sips his crownroyal........drills a hole in his fanger nail........why?...oh...hehehe~ Marsh - I apologize if I left out any information in my earlier posts. The reason I went to the muffler shop was to replace the flex pipe that was broken. I did not intend to replace the cat. But the muffler shop had the part such that the flex pipe and cat were together, and they "sold me" into buying that. If I had known at that time that I would run into such problems, I would have just walked away. But anyway, so I replaced the cat along with the flex pipe. And the reason I got the flush was because my 90K service was overdue and my transmission oil was very dirty, so I decided to get the service done. As part of my 90K service, I went to Lube express to get the transmission and radiator flushed, oil changed, air filter changed and fuel injector cleaning. The fuel injection was part of the 'package' I bought. If I had done everything individually, it would have cost me more, so I ended up getting the package. Thank you. >Marsh - I apologize if I left out any information in my earlier posts. >The reason I went to the muffler shop was to replace the flex pipe [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >would run into such problems, I would have just walked away. But >anyway, so I replaced the cat along with the flex pipe. RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! >And the reason I got the flush was because my 90K service was overdue >and my transmission oil was very dirty, so I decided to get the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >'package' I bought. If I had done everything individually, it would >have cost me more, so I ended up getting the package. I agree with Marsh Monster. It's time to contact a real technician, not some quick lube or muffler shop jockey. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Marsh - I apologize if I left out any information in my earlier posts. > The reason I went to the muffler shop was to replace the flex pipe [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Thank you. ======== ======== I understand.......sounds logical to me. anywhoo......... You should have those sensors checked for GOOD wave form readings. A SLUGGISH sensor WILL set THAT code. Any good tech with a good digital meter can check it for you in short order. AND......in my opinion, the ones you've been using are NOT good techs, based on the fact that they very evidently have'nt even suggested doing it in order to verify the performance of the sensors, much less checked the exhaust gas's. You should be made aware that the code you are getting can be set by ANYTHING that "leads" the computer to "believe" that exhaust gas's are not being controlled effectively. If a sensor is sluggish, not working, or otherwise sending eroneous info to the computer and the computer isn't "seeing" a fast reaction time on the exhaust gas's being emitted......then......you have an efficiency code. If the convertor is a "freeflow" type, then it IS possible that the convertor is the cause. The convertor may not be appropriate for the powertrain system, this is true, however......you WILL NOT be sure unless someone.....runs an exhaust gas analyzer on the vehicle to monitor what's going on, and THEN you can't be sure that IF the readings ARE bad, that the failed converter should be blamed FIRST and FOREMOST before anything else that has been done. . FACT..........N O T F I C T I O N !!!! . . now........with all that said.........here's why.......... . You should know a few more things. First, it's against Federal Law to install ANY convertor that doesn't meet or exceed OEM design for functionablilty. Fact, not fiction. I don't know the shop you used....but..you CAN judge a shop by it's appearance. So...let your own personal reasoning figure that one out for you. But know that EVERY exhaust shop i've worked for......and i've worked for Meineke, Midas, and an independent 12 store chain......and..THEY KNOW the hefty fines involved if they're caught sticking on a unit that doesn't do the job, and leaving it there. Again, fact not fiction. I managed a shop for an independent 12 shop outfit that was started by the OWNERS.......of CATCO Converters. Do a google. The COST of just getting a new design converter to market is more than what most of the guys typing in YOUR thread make in a year !! FACT..not fiction. FLUSHING INJECTORS LEAVES ........CAN...LEAVE A COATING ON THE INSIDE OF THE CONVERTERS SUBSTRATE.....INHIBITING IT'S ABILITY TO FUNCTION AS DESIGNED !!! This holds true for the O2 sensors also. I can tell you for FACT that it cost a couple of Greek brothers $50,000 a pop to to have ONE design tested before it could go to market, before the company could sell ONE converter !! The reeeeely knee slapp'n part of it is......when it failed the test......they had to pay AGAIN to get it retested after making design changes. These dudes KNOW converters. These dudes made SURE....their managers KNEW converters. These dudes....likely own the company that made that flex-pipe you jest put on the car. They most likely own the converter company. I tell you all this, because i want you to understand that although I have a BAAAD habit of NOT answering questions that are NOT asked........i also understand the system, and what CAN and WILL make it fail. and trust me on this one.......a coating.......on a sensor, or a converter, can, will, and HAS....caused efficiency codes to set AFTER ..... CHEMICALS....have been chunked downt he engines throat in an attempt to DISLODGE varnish, carbon, and scum.!!! :) where you rectom......that stuff leaves the engine through? FACT..........NOT FICTION. so........anyone.....in THIS thread...that tells you different...... has nowhere....... :) near the experience, hands on, as i do on this one. fact...not fiction ! :) so.........when did the light come on again ? :) ~:~ marsh ~pours you a crown-n-coke.......wish's you well, hopes it all works out economically~ ~:~ > so.........when did the light come on again ? First, it went off automatically and came back on after a few days. The TRAC OFF light also came on a couple of days later. When I reset the CEL, the TRAC OFF also went away. Again after 3-4 days, the CEL came back on. The TRAC OFF came back on again a day later. > > so.........when did the light come on again ? > > First, it went off automatically and came back on after a few days. > The TRAC OFF light also came on a couple of days later. When I reset > the CEL, the TRAC OFF also went away. Again after 3-4 days, the CEL > came back on. The TRAC OFF came back on again a day later. In article <2fb0c59b-e0ba-43b6-9b94-190909b48746@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.co m>, > SapSucker.......a direct question.....dammit.... > . [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > care, doesn't wanna work on it, doesn't like you, or is as dumb as > a rock !! (sorry so blunt..but..it was a direct question) I vote for dumb as a rock for installing converters that are known to be half as efficient as OEM. > Your FIRST OPTION ..to be excercised should be done so with > care, understanding, forsight, and a basic knowledge of what you're > attempting to acomplish. Namely,, find out if the fk'n O2 sensors > are EVEN WORKING AT THIS POINT like THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO! They'd be coding if they weren't. > A little more involved than simply hooking up a wave form scanner "A wave form scanner?" What in gods name is a wave form scanner? (this ought to be good) > and seeing a few spikes, or, for the "old school" techs who have'nt > upgraded in the last 10 years, using a plane ole code reader with > data line acquistion that has a baud rate slower than the ignition > circuit AARCUDA jest got through diagnosing.....1 hit every 3 > seconds!!! That Stratus' ignition system has a baud rate? You're a bigger moron than I suspected. > (i make me giggle) > Make sure this tech has, can use, can understand what he's reading, > on an exhaust gas analyzer. If the assprobe is reading good...then > the .....(ooops.....gas probe).....CAT is good. Doesn't work that way. It might make sense to take pre-cat and post cat readings and compare the results, paying particular attention to the oxygen readings. > anywhoooo.........go find yerself a tech that can use a freekin scope > to ck the O2 sensors....and one that KNOWS what he's doing instead > of guessing. Scope might help, but one is certainly not necessary for this failure. > cuz....my GUESS.....is..that the flush....either contaminated the > convertor or the sensors, created an unbalanced fuel mixture.. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ~takes a toke.......sips his crownroyal........drills a hole in his > fanger nail........why?...oh...hehehe~ Awww.. didja get a boo-boo? > In article > <2fb0c59b-e0ba-43b6-9b94-190909b48...@l32g2000hse.googlegroups.co [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Awww.. didja get a boo-boo? ============= ============= last line in yer post.......... lmao.......maybe you ain't an idiot. :) anywhoo.......waveform scanner......?? Solus Modus :) ~:~ marsh ~drops a shroom in cudas coffee~ ~:~ In article <071fa0b2-3f06-4f65-acb9-40c3695c905a@b1g2000pra.googlegroups.com >, > last line in yer post.......... > > lmao.......maybe you ain't an idiot. I have my days... Like Monday last week, had I been a little more careful, I might have avoided breaking my left knee cap. Stage two for that would have been not waiting until Friday to go to the doctor. Waiting didn't make things worse, but that was nothing but luck. > :) > > anywhoo.......waveform scanner......?? > > Solus > Modus Oh, you mean 'graphing scanner.' Waveforms can only (to my knowledge) be acquired with a labscope. Graphing could be quite useful in a case like this but in reality, it only replicates what the PCM is doing (and reporting) already. > :) > > ~:~ > marsh > ~drops a shroom in cudas coffee~ > ~:~ |
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