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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2007

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2000 Pontiac Sunfire: stumbling, black smoke

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Tegger - 03 Dec 2007 12:04 GMT
Last week I tried posting this to alt.autos.gm and alt.autos.pontiac.
<http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=sunfire&num=10&scoring=r&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_
eq=&as_ugroup=alt.autos.gm&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=tegger&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b
&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2007&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2007&safe=off
>

The responses were not really very revealing, so I'm re-posting it here
below, in the hopes some tech in this group might have some ideas.

--------------------------------------------

A guy I know has the above mentioned vehicle with the 2.4L four (the one
with two tailpipes and two mufflers) and a manual transmission. He's got
about 100K miles on it. There are no modifications to the car or its
wiring.

He knows next to nothing about cars, and I'm not familiar with GM vehicles,
so I'm hoping for some knowledgeable advice from the two groups I've
crossposted to.

When this car is cold, it emits black smoke, enough to discolor the bottom
of the bumper. Plus there is a stumble or hesitation when you press the gas
pedal. His MIL is often on, and sometimes it even flashes, which I
understand to mean that there is an emissions problem that is severe enough
to damage the catalytic converter. There is no hesitation or visible smoke
when the engine has warmed up.

He has taken the car to an independent garage. We do not know what specific
DTC(s) were pulled from the engine's computer. We do know that there was at
least one code for a misfire; that's all he was told. In an attempt to cure
the misfire, the independent garage replaced some or all of the coil packs
(is that what this car has?). This did not help at all.

My acquaintance tells me the problem seems to be worse in damp weather, and
that there is the occasional cold start where there is no hesitation.

I did some Googling in the hope that this may be a common problem, but it
appears not to be. Any ideas?

Signature

Tegger

Steve W. - 03 Dec 2007 17:46 GMT
> Last week I tried posting this to alt.autos.gm and alt.autos.pontiac.

> The responses were not really very revealing, so I'm re-posting it here
> below, in the hopes some tech in this group might have some ideas.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> I did some Googling in the hope that this may be a common problem, but it
> appears not to be. Any ideas?

Bad pressure regulator. Or a bad injector dumping extra fuel. Pull the
vacuum line to the brake booster and take a sniff. If you smell raw gas
then the regulator likely failed.

Signature

Steve W.
Near Cooperstown, New York

Life is not like a box of chocolates
it's more like a jar of jalapenos-
what you do today could burn your a.s tomorrow!

Tegger - 04 Dec 2007 14:47 GMT
> Bad pressure regulator. Or a bad injector dumping extra fuel. Pull the
> vacuum line to the brake booster and take a sniff. If you smell raw
> gas then the regulator likely failed.

Thanks for the tips. I'll pass them on to my acquaintance.

Signature

Tegger

Refinish King - 04 Dec 2007 05:48 GMT
Did they do a fuel pressure test:

and also leave the fuel pressure gauge on for a few hours. That will tell
them if there is a fuel pressure leak down.

My guess is that there is a leaking injector or more, that fills the intake
runner with fuel after a few hours. Which makes the car run like the
cylinders with the leaking injectors are flooded.

I hope this helps.

RK
> Last week I tried posting this to alt.autos.gm and alt.autos.pontiac.
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=sunfire&num=10&scoring=r&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_
eq=&as_ugroup=alt.autos.gm&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=tegger&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b
&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2007&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2007&safe=off
>
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> I did some Googling in the hope that this may be a common problem, but it
> appears not to be. Any ideas?
Tegger - 04 Dec 2007 14:47 GMT
> Did they do a fuel pressure test:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I hope this helps.

So do I. Thanks.

Signature

Tegger

Steve Austin - 04 Dec 2007 13:49 GMT
> Last week I tried posting this to alt.autos.gm and alt.autos.pontiac.
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=sunfire&num=10&scoring=r&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_
eq=&as_ugroup=alt.autos.gm&as_usubject=&as_uauthors=tegger&lr=&as_qdr=&as_drrb=b
&as_mind=1&as_minm=1&as_miny=2007&as_maxd=3&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2007&safe=off
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> I did some Googling in the hope that this may be a common problem, but it
> appears not to be. Any ideas?

This is the quad 4?  The coils and icm are integal to that foolish
cover.  Makes it tough to do ignition diagnostics.  I've seen a lot of
them with no fuel pressure port.  Makes it tough to do fuel diagnostics.
 The pcm is in the right front fenderwell were it gets covered with
road crap and makes it tough to backpin for circuit testing.  I've seen
these engines jump cam timing on the exhaust cam only, where it wont
show on a scope of the ckp and cmp.  All in all, a real POS.
Tegger - 04 Dec 2007 14:46 GMT
> This is the quad 4?

I don't know.

> The coils and icm are integal to that foolish
> cover.  Makes it tough to do ignition diagnostics.  I've seen a lot of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> seen these engines jump cam timing on the exhaust cam only, where it
> wont show on a scope of the ckp and cmp.  All in all, a real POS.

Doesn't sound good at all.

I told this guy to take it to the dealer, hoping the dealer might have more
intimate experience with this model and any problems its systems may have.

I'll pass this along, Thanks for the reply.

Signature

Tegger

Tegger - 05 Dec 2007 17:57 GMT
>> This is the quad 4?
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> I'll pass this along, Thanks for the reply.

An update: The car came back from the dealership last night, and I have
more information.

The engine is indeed the 2.4L Quad-4. It has about 100,000 miles on it.

The dealership did this:
1) Scanned for codes, P0301 and P0303 stored.
2) Fuel injector "flush and balance".
3) Throttle body clean.
4) New fuel filter.
5) Replaced spark plug boots and plugs. Apparently the old boots were
cracked and there was carbon tracking down the (two-week old) plugs.

They did not check the fuel pressure.

Taxes in, the cost was $470.

My acquaintance reports that the car appeared to behave well at first,
but at one point this morning it stumbled like before (but this time
when full-hot) and the Check Engine light came on again, even flashing
at one point. After the original service by the independent garage the
car also appeared to behave properly at first.

I took the car myself for a 10-minute test drive this AM. The car had
been sitting for 45 minutes in 15F weather. The engine felt fine. No
stumbling or bogging.

I have advised him to get the code read at a parts chain.

Signature

Tegger

Tegger - 21 Dec 2007 22:20 GMT
> An update: The car came back from the dealership last night, and I
> have more information.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> I have advised him to get the code read at a parts chain.

In case anyone's still following a thread this old...I have a final
upate on the stumbling/black smoke problem, which has now been solved.

Since the MIL came back on again, the dealership took the car back for
more troubleshooting. The tech ended up driving the car for a few days
as though it were his own, which turned out to be an excellent idea.
This enabled him to see the problem in action.

The culprit? The ignition module. Apparently this puppy was
intermittently failing to operate the coil, leading to a misfire and the
related DTC. The malfunctions were sometimes severe, sometimes not,
explaining the erratic symptoms.

The ignition module was replaced last week, and the problems and DTC's
have entirely disappeared.

Thanks for everyones' help here.

I'm wondering why a faulty ignition module would not itself have set an
error code. Don't GM's engine computers monitor igniter output?

Signature

Tegger

 
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