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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2007

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de-icing a vehicle

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bob@coolgroups.com - 09 Dec 2007 21:10 GMT
What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a vehicle?

What about room temperature water?
Tegger - 10 Dec 2007 00:11 GMT
bob@coolgroups.com wrote in news:0fd02603-b61e-4b3f-9559-8a5ed6e461e6
@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com:

> What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a vehicle?
>
> What about room temperature water?

It will work for melting some of the ice that's on there, but the melted
ice will quickly re-freeze, defeating the purpose. There's also the
possibility of cracking the windshield with the thermal shock of the warm
water.

Just use a common hardware-store scraper that's made for ice on car glass.

Signature

Tegger

C. E. White - 10 Dec 2007 13:14 GMT
> What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a
> vehicle?
>
> What about room temperature water?

Not a great idea. Years ago A co-worker I car-pooled with poured hot
water on his windshield. There was a rock chip in the windshield.
After the hot water hit the windshield, it became a huge crack....

I'd suggest using a scraper, or one of the de-icing products (Preston
sells one). However, until you get the windshield above the freezing
point (and the dew point), ice (or fog) will continue to be a problem.

Ed
Scott Dorsey - 10 Dec 2007 16:02 GMT
>What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a vehicle?

It works for a short while, then the warm water freezes and your car is
icier than it was before.

>What about room temperature water?

Freezes even faster.
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Kevin Bottorff - 11 Dec 2007 15:48 GMT
kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
@panix2.panix.com:

>>What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a vehicle?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Freezes even faster.
> --scott

Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.  KB

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Thunder Snake #9
"Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

C. E. White - 11 Dec 2007 15:53 GMT
> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
> KB

WHAT? Are you nuts? What gives you this idea?

Ed
* - 11 Dec 2007 16:30 GMT
C. E. White <cewhite3@removemindspring.com> wrote in article
<475eb2f5@kcnews01>...

> > Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
> > KB
>
> WHAT? Are you nuts? What gives you this idea?
>
> Ed

I suspect they are thinking about Zamboni ice resurfacing machines using
hot water to re-make the ice surface.

I used to work on Zambonis in the '70s.

They use hot water to allow the water to flow out BEFORE it freezes -
providing a smoother ice surface.

The hot water freezes slower.....not faster.
Harry Face - 11 Dec 2007 17:26 GMT
I've used hot water mainly to loosen the ice blockage in the cowl area
where the wiper drop into. Pouring hot water on the glass could crack
it.

On real heavy ice I use one of those brass edge ice scrappers. Its
worked fine for over 20 years.

We had an ice blizzard Dec 1 in the Joliet, IL. area. The direction the
rain & ice was blownig froze over the driverside doors and we had to get
in throght the passengerside. Took 15-20 minutes of warming the car up
before the ice come off the windshield & two fron windows. The backs I
didn't bother with. The rear defroster took careof the rear window.

Next morning the Buick LF tire was flat - cut in the inner sidewall.

harryface

91 Bonneville 310,897
05 Park Avenue 64,123
Mike Romain - 11 Dec 2007 17:12 GMT
>> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
>> KB
>
> WHAT? Are you nuts? What gives you this idea?
>
> Ed

I also learned this in high school physics and did the experiments which
verified it was true.  The hot water starts cooling at a faster rate so
it surpasses the cold water and does freeze first.

I even had to do the experiment for my Dad because he wouldn't believe.
 There was a considerable difference too.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos:
http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
C. E. White - 11 Dec 2007 17:33 GMT
>>> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water. KB
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I even had to do the experiment for my Dad because he wouldn't believe.
> There was a considerable difference too.

Define considerable difference. I understand that under some very specific
conditions you can freeze hot water faster than cold. I've even seen it
domonstarted. And while this is true for carefully controlled conditions, it
is definitely not the case for hot water poured on a windshield.

Usually there are several reasons cited for this apparent contradiction -
cold water doesn't develope significant convection currents, so it tends to
freeze at the boundry, slowing heat transfer to the rest of the water; hot
water evaporates at a signnificantly higher rate, both cooling the remoning
water and reducing the amount to be frozen; hot water includes less air,
improving heat rransfer. None of these factors apply to hot water poured on
a windshield. In that case you are dealing with a thin layer, not a pot of
water.

Try this - take two identical glass jars with tops. Fill one with 40 degree
water. Fill the other with 60 degree water. Seal the tops and place the jars
in freezer. See which one breaks first. I'll bet you it won't be the one
that started with 60 degree water. If you use open aluminum pots instead, I
won't bet you.

Ed

Ed

> Mike
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
> Photos:
> http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
Mike Romain - 11 Dec 2007 18:23 GMT
 If you use open aluminum pots instead, I
> won't bet you.
>
> Ed

It is an interesting phenomenon and yes we did use aluminum ice cube trays.

This link is a good one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect

I like the one theory that cold water can even supercool which hot won't
do so cold water can have a lower freezing point that way, but there can
be lots of reasons it would seem.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
Ed.Toronto@gmail.com - 11 Dec 2007 17:34 GMT
> >> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
> >> KB
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> verified it was true.  The hot water starts cooling at a faster rate so
> it surpasses the cold water and does freeze first.

Hot water does start cooling quicker.  Thermal transfer is
proportional to the current temperature difference.  The bigger the
difference, the more the thermal flow.

However, as soon as the hot water has cooled to being as cold as the
cold water, then it cools at the same rate as the cold water cooled.
But by this point, the cold water has cooled for a while already, so
it's colder. The hot water never catches up. The cold water freezes
first.

So the first part of the statement above is true. The second part is
nonsense.
. - 11 Dec 2007 17:36 GMT
> >> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
> >> KB
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> 'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos:
> http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

"In some specific circumstances, hotter water freezes faster
than colder water":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect
AZ Nomad - 11 Dec 2007 18:05 GMT
>> >> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
>> >> KB
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Photos:
>> http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

>"In some specific circumstances, hotter water freezes faster
>than colder water":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect

I read that and followed some of it's external links.  None rule out
evaporation and if you fail to do so then you aren't doing a
fair comparison.
C. E. White - 11 Dec 2007 18:18 GMT
>> >> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
>> >> KB
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> "In some specific circumstances, hotter water freezes faster
> than colder water":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect

None of the specific circumstances involves pouring water onto a windshield.

Ed
Mike Romain - 11 Dec 2007 18:23 GMT
>>>> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
>>>> KB
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> "In some specific circumstances, hotter water freezes faster
> than colder water":http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect

Thanks for that link, it has really good explanations for the phenomenon.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
ChrisCoaster - 11 Dec 2007 21:15 GMT
> >> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
> >> KB
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
> 'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos:http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

I can see that - things tend to move faster at the extremes!  The hot
water will plummet from 200-whatever degrees fahrenheit to freezing
faster than 70 degree water.

-CC
Steve - 12 Dec 2007 15:08 GMT
>>> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water. KB
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> verified it was true.  The hot water starts cooling at a faster rate so
> it surpasses the cold water and does freeze first.

Uh, no.

What happens in most "home experiments" involving putting a tray of hot
water in the freezer and a tray of cold water in the freezer is this:
The tray with hot water initially melts the thin coating of ice on the
freezer's shelf, which then re-flows and forms a good bond to the bottom
of the ice tray allowing faster cooling of the try by conduction. The
tray of cold water does not get this benefit and rests atop the thin
layer of ice on the freezer shelf, and is forced to cool only by cold
air flow. If you place your hot and cold water trays in the freezer on
*dry* towels which eliminates cooling by conduction, the tray of cold
water ALWAYS FREEZES FIRST. You canna change the laws of physics, you
can only misinterpret them.
Scott Dorsey - 11 Dec 2007 18:58 GMT
>> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.
>
>WHAT? Are you nuts? What gives you this idea?

It is a popular notion.  Sadly, it's not true.  There was a good article
on the subject in Scientific American back in the eighties.
--scott

Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

AZ Nomad - 11 Dec 2007 17:34 GMT
>kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
>@panix2.panix.com:

>>>What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a vehicle?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> Freezes even faster.
>> --scott

>Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.  KB

no it doesn't.  It has to cool to freezing before it can freeze.
What has confused you is the fact that there will be less of the hard
water to freeze by the time it gets cold enough to freeze.
John S. - 11 Dec 2007 18:14 GMT
> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Thunder Snake #9
> "Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

Rewriting the laws of physics today are we?

I'm no skating rink expert, but I'm guessing a Zamboni uses hot water
to melt the imprfections briefly and then allow them to refreeze.  It
probably also keeps ice from building up on the machine.
Steve - 12 Dec 2007 15:04 GMT
> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Buzz!!!!!!!!  wrong,  hot water freezes faster than cooler water.  KB

ROTFL. Myth. Busted long ago.
Kevin Bottorff - 13 Dec 2007 18:27 GMT
>> kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
>> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> ROTFL. Myth. Busted long ago.

Not a myth goof ball. proven many times out side, not in a freezer, no
container to change the results.  KB

Signature

Thunder Snake #9
"Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

John S. - 13 Dec 2007 20:41 GMT
> >> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
> >> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Utter nonsense.  For water to freeze heat has to be extracted and it
has to be brought to a freezing temperature.  Hot water has a lot more
eneregy to be extracted and that will take longer than cold water.
Unless you are living in some parallel universe with it's own set of
physics laws.

As a test place water that is one degree above freezing and water that
is one degree below boiling into equal containers.  Leave them in a
freezing compartment or outside in zero degreee weather and time.
Mike Romain - 13 Dec 2007 21:23 GMT
>>>> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
>>>> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> is one degree below boiling into equal containers.  Leave them in a
> freezing compartment or outside in zero degreee weather and time.

I have actually pulled off the experiment showing hot water freezing
first in school and at home for my Dad....  I used aluminum ice cube
trays.  It was a 'lot' colder than 0F though, more like -20F.

Here is a decent description of what is going on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mpemba_effect

I don't know which theory works, but one or more comes into play for sure.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
AZ Nomad - 13 Dec 2007 22:57 GMT
>I have actually pulled off the experiment showing hot water freezing
>first in school and at home for my Dad....  I used aluminum ice cube
>trays.  It was a 'lot' colder than 0F though, more like -20F.

Yeah, you've repeated a faulty experement.  Weigh the the trays when
cold water is used and when hot water is used.  If the weight isn't the
same then you aren't making a valid comparison.
Mike Romain - 14 Dec 2007 00:24 GMT
>> I have actually pulled off the experiment showing hot water freezing
>> first in school and at home for my Dad....  I used aluminum ice cube
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> cold water is used and when hot water is used.  If the weight isn't the
> same then you aren't making a valid comparison.

Correct, I won't say there aren't tricks of physics to it, no one
claimed it made any sense....

But the end result is two apparently even trays of water freeze at
different times with no apparent outside influences on it.  This happens
both for skimming over and cubing solid and is repeatable.

For 'whatever' reason...

LOL

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
Steve Austin - 14 Dec 2007 00:15 GMT
>>>>> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
>>>>> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> 'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
> Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com

I lost a bet on this.  Hot water freezes first.
John S. - 14 Dec 2007 15:16 GMT
> >>>> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
> >>>> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

I read through a couple of different articles including the Wikipedia
note on the Mpemba effect.  Hot water is purported to freeze faster
than cold water under certain conditions but there is no agreement on
what those conditions are.  For it to occur apparently the difference
in temperatures cannot be wide.  However there are several
disagreements including about what constitutes freezing, how
temperature is measured and whether the effect of hot water
evaporation should be considered.

I'm left with the impression that under certain circumstances you
might see something occur if you are willing to ignore the impact of
certain variables.  Just as some people believe they see something in
the Turin shroud.
Kevin Bottorff - 14 Dec 2007 16:23 GMT
>> >> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
>> >> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> is one degree below boiling into equal containers.  Leave them in a
> freezing compartment or outside in zero degreee weather and time.

I can assure you after years of thawing hog waters out, hot water will
deff. freeze faster in the very cold (0 degrees F on down) much faster than
cold tap water.  Fill a 5 gal bucket of hot water from the hot water heater
and one with cold tap water and you will have a large chunk of frozen water
to get out of the hot water bucket, while only skiming over the cold water.  
Add a cold wind and it is even more noticable.  KB

Signature

Thunder Snake #9
"Protect" your rights or "lose" them.

Mike Romain - 14 Dec 2007 17:29 GMT
>>>>> klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in news:fjjnul$5vo$1
>>>>> @panix2.panix.com:
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> to get out of the hot water bucket, while only skiming over the cold water.  
> Add a cold wind and it is even more noticable.  KB

Same goes for plumbing pipes.  There is a hot and a cold pipe running
parallel and the hot one is always the one that freezes and bursts.

Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
'New' frame in the works for '08.  Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build
Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com
AZ Nomad - 10 Dec 2007 21:26 GMT
>What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a vehicle?
>What about room temperature water?

You'd need a swiming poolfull to raise the temperature of car enough to
prevent your water from just become more ice on your car.

Start the engine.
Turn the heater to recirc and to max.  Set air to defrost only if you're
sure the AC won't run (It shouldn't in the cold)  Turn on the rear electric
defroster.

Wait 10-15 minutes.

Cut squares in ice with an ice scraper.  
Scrape rest away.
John S. - 11 Dec 2007 00:54 GMT
On Dec 9, 4:10 pm, b...@coolgroups.com wrote:
> What do you guys think about using warm water for de-icing a vehicle?
>
> What about room temperature water?

Didn't you just ask about deicing too fast in another thread?  And
didn't you get about the same responses?

As others have said there is a risk that is the water is warm enough
to do any good it might crack the window.  Why don't you just use a
grocery store plastic scraper.  Or run the heater/defroster for a
while.

For a faster warmup and faster deicing have a block heater installed.
 
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