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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2007Methanol windshield fluid
I always preferred isopropyl windshield anti-freeze fluid over the methanol stuff, but now cannot find it. Why has everyone gone to methanol? I know from my youth with methanol fueled model airplanes, and now with a methanol fueled race car, that methanol is hell on paint! Are the newer paints methanol proof, or does no one care anymore? I know that polyurethane was pretty "hot fuel proof", but cellulose lacquers sure craze and even dissolve in methanol. >I always preferred isopropyl windshield anti-freeze fluid over the > methanol stuff, but now cannot find it. Why has everyone gone to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that polyurethane was pretty "hot fuel proof", but cellulose lacquers > sure craze and even dissolve in methanol. Methanol is much cheaper than the other alcohols, Don. It is somewhat more efficient, on a weight basis, than ethanol or isopropanol. Like you, I dont like it in contact with paint. >I always preferred isopropyl windshield anti-freeze fluid over the > methanol stuff, but now cannot find it. Why has everyone gone to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that polyurethane was pretty "hot fuel proof", but cellulose lacquers > sure craze and even dissolve in methanol. Isopropyl can be found in the super market near where bandages are sold. I can buy 70% or 95%, and it's quite cheap. >>I always preferred isopropyl windshield anti-freeze fluid over the >> methanol stuff, but now cannot find it. Why has everyone gone to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Isopropyl can be found in the super market near where bandages are sold. I > can buy 70% or 95%, and it's quite cheap. When you are manufacturing tons of antifreeze compound, usually sold at around a dollar a gallon, the cost of isopropanol adds up. If you want to formulate your own liquid, then this cost difference may be inconsequential to you. In Europe, as lot of the formulators are going with propyleneglycol, since it is less of a hazard, is biodegradable, etc. Ethyleneglycol was used by some in the past, but the reputation it has received for toxicity has pretty much kicked it out of that market. >>>I always preferred isopropyl windshield anti-freeze fluid over the >>> methanol stuff, but now cannot find it. Why has everyone gone to [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > reputation it has received for toxicity has pretty much kicked it out of > that market. I've never seen ethylene/propylene glycol sold as windshield washer anti-freeze. "Chas Hurst" <hurst1@comcast.not> wrote in message > I've never seen ethylene/propylene glycol sold as windshield washer > anti-freeze. We had it in Norway, AFAIK, as it appealed to the environmental interests. Of course, methanol is very toxic, and ethanol runs afoul of Norwegian alcohol control laws, (as does, I believe, isopropanol). Normally in the USA you just get the cheap and simple alcohol formulations. I dont particularly like the glycol formulations, as I perceived and oily glaze like appearance to the windshield. > "Chas Hurst" <hurst1@comcast.not> wrote in message > > I've never seen ethylene/propylene glycol sold as windshield washer [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Of course, methanol is very toxic, Toxic, yes. "very" toxic - Eh... Not *REALLY*. Half life "in the world" is on the order of a week to ten days, and it takes a relatively high dose to be human-toxic. Most other critters aren't particularly sensitive to it unless the dose is quite large, and the vast majority won't voluntarily ingest enough of it to be harmful. > and ethanol runs afoul of Norwegian > alcohol control laws, (as does, I believe, isopropanol). I can see no reason why isopropanol, AKA "Isopropyl Alcohol" would run afoul of any county/state/country's laws, since it's worthless (and poison, though not as much so as methyl alcohol/methanol) for drinking. We can buy it here in the US as "rubbing alcohol" for something like 80 cents to a dollar per pint, depending on which strength. (most common is 70%, but I've seen it anywhere from 65% to 92%) > Normally in the USA you just get the cheap and simple alcohol formulations. > > I dont particularly like the glycol formulations, as I perceived and oily > glaze like appearance to the windshield. That would make two of us. And it's hardly surprising, since the various glycols are pretty comparable to sugar.  SignatureDon Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist, or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow" somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info >> Of course, methanol is very toxic, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sensitive to it unless the dose is quite large, and the vast majority > won't voluntarily ingest enough of it to be harmful. Not quite correct, Don.. Blindness has been experience with only 5-6 milliliters of methanol ingested. That is one teaspoon, essentially. Death may follow with larger volumes. Interestingly enough, a treatment for methanol poisoning is to flood the human system with ethanol. It competes with the biochemical conversion of methanol in the liver, allowing the methanol to be excreted. (Methanol is converted to formaldehyde biochemically which is also very damaging). Our company there converted thousands of tons of methanol annually into formaldehyde, which was then used to make glues, resins, etc. There is also a definite long term cancer relationship with exposure to even small amounts of formaldehyde. >> and ethanol runs afoul of Norwegian >> alcohol control laws, (as does, I believe, isopropanol). > > I can see no reason why isopropanol, AKA "Isopropyl Alcohol" would run > afoul of any county/state/country's laws, since it's worthless (and > poison, though not as much so as methyl alcohol/methanol) for drinking. Norwegian laws are pretty tough about alcohols, and I also felt that the isopropanol restrictions must have been in error. Isopropanol is not a good drink, but some have tried to use it recreationally. Alcohol there is very expensive and only available at the Vinmonopol (state alcohol stores). Some people involve themselves in home distilling, and some even buy illegal smuggled spirits. They frequently get themselves in a lot of trouble going this way. > Not quite correct, Don.. Blindness has been experience with only 5-6 > milliliters [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > definite long term cancer > relationship with exposure to even small amounts of formaldehyde. Right. Methanol is not really that toxic. It got its reputation from people consuming it as if it were ethanol. I clipped this from an MSDS: _____________________________________________________________________________ TOXICOLOGICAL INFORMATION _____________________________________________________________________________ Harmful if inhaled or absorbed though skin; causes damage to liver, kidney, and nervous system. Causes skin, nose and throat irritation. May be fatal or cause blindness if swallowed. Cannot be made nonpoisonous. Animal Data Inhalation 1 hr. LC50: >145,000 ppm in rats Oral LD50 : 9,100 mg/kg in rats Skin Absorption LD50: 15,840 mg/kg in rabbits Methanol is a skin and eye irritant. Toxic effects described in animals from short exposures by inhalation,ingestion, or skin contact include anesthetic effects, liver effects, blindness and acidosis. Information available on reproduction effects is not sufficient to characterize the reproductive hazard. Methanol produced developmental effects in rats exposed by inhalation to 10,000 or 20,000 ppm, but because maternal effects also occurred at these high concentrations, it was concluded that methanol is not a significant hazard to conceptus. Test in bacterial or mammalian cell cultures demonstrate no mutagenic activity. HUMAN HEALTH EFFECTS Over exposure by skin or eye contact may include skin irritation with discomfort or rash; or eye irritation with discomfort, tearing, or blurring of vision. Toxic effects described in animals from overexposure by inhalation, ingestion, or skin absorption may include irritation of upper respiratory passages; nonspecific discomfort such as nausea, headache or weakness; temporary nervous system depression with anesthetic effects such as dizziness, headache, confusion, incoordination, and loss of conciousness; or blindness. Higher exposures may lead to abnormal liver or kidney functions as detected by laboratory tests; or fatality from gross overexposure. Ingestion of as little as 60 mL may cause blindness or fatality. No evidence of reproductive effects has been reported for humans. Skin permeation can occur in amounts capable of producing system toxicity. Individuals with preexisting diseases of the retina or liver may have increased susceptibility to the toxicity of excessive exposures. "Frank" <frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet> wrote in message news:vLydncD2EIm-> Right. Methanol is not really that toxic. It got its reputation from > people consuming it as if it were ethanol. The methanol is not so toxic per se...It is the metabolic products that cause the problems.. Formaldehyde is usually the first mentioned, but that is not the whole story either. > "Frank" <frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet> wrote in message > news:vLydncD2EIm-> Right. Methanol is not really that toxic. It got [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the whole story > either. There are small amounts of methanol in food or it is generated in the gut. Just like the small amounts of cyanide in some fruits, they're not going to harm you. >> "Frank" <frankdotlogullo@comcastperiodnet> wrote in message >> news:vLydncD2EIm-> Right. Methanol is not really that toxic. It got its [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Just like the small amounts of cyanide in some fruits, they're not going > to harm you. Small amounts wont hurt you, agreed. We are talking in the ppm levels. Cyanide, or cyanogens, in fruit can kill you..For example, sour peach or almond seeds can have enough of the cyanogens to kill you if you eat the seeds or drink a tea made from them. But even with cyanide, small amounts are not fatal.. >"Chas Hurst" <hurst1@comcast.not> wrote in message >> I've never seen ethylene/propylene glycol sold as windshield washer [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >alcohol >control laws, (as does, I believe, isopropanol). My grandfather's neighbor drank a pint of isopropanol every day for a few years. He showed clear signs of toxicity but the fact that he survived as long as he did demonstrates something, I think. Even so, it has too many carbons in it, and it did kill him eventually. He only drank Walgreen's brand, though. >I dont particularly like the glycol formulations, as I perceived and oily >glaze like >appearance to the windshield. Does this help keep dirt off? Or does it attract dirt? --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Don Stauffer in Minnesota <stauffer@usfamily.net> wrote in news:5e2ef356- c0ba-486d-9abf-487ad9cf033d@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com: > I always preferred isopropyl windshield anti-freeze fluid over the > methanol stuff, but now cannot find it. Why has everyone gone to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that polyurethane was pretty "hot fuel proof", but cellulose lacquers > sure craze and even dissolve in methanol. Probably methanol is cheaper than isopropanol. Commercial methanol is made from natural gas. Don't know what commercial isopropanol is made from. As far as paint damage goes...I'm in Eastern Canada. We buy our washer fluid ready-made in gallon jugs, and some of us go through a dozen jugs a season, every year. The only paint damage I've ever seen has been some discoloration and fading on the hood in the direct line of the washer stream, and even then only on certain colors, like red. I've never seen cracking or crazing of the paint. SignatureTegger "Tegger" <tegger@tegger.c0m> wrote in message > Probably methanol is cheaper than isopropanol. Commercial methanol is made > from natural gas. Don't know what commercial isopropanol is made from. > Tegger Isopropanol is also made from components of natural gas, but the price is higher. Modern paints have some problems, I believe, that the older paints maybe handled better. I especially have some doubts about the clear coats. >I always preferred isopropyl windshield anti-freeze fluid over the >methanol stuff, but now cannot find it. Why has everyone gone to >methanol? It's a lot cheaper. You can still buy concentrate from a couple companies that use methanol. And you can always mix up your own with sudsy ammonia, water, and commercial methanol if you want. >I know from my youth with methanol fueled model airplanes, and now >with a methanol fueled race car, that methanol is hell on paint! Are >the newer paints methanol proof, or does no one care anymore? I know >that polyurethane was pretty "hot fuel proof", but cellulose lacquers >sure craze and even dissolve in methanol. Yes, but they put as little alcohol as possible in that windshield fluid. Just enough to keep it from freezing, not enough for it to be useful as a solvent. This is another argument in favor of mixing up your own. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
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