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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2007

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new ethanol studies

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Kevin Bottorff - 14 Dec 2007 16:04 GMT
I found this to be interesting if it is good research.

Gasoline
Research findings released last week strongly suggests that there is an
"optimal blend level" of ethanol and gasoline -- most likely E20 or E30
(20 or 30% ethanol) -- at which cars will provide better mileage than the
fuel's per-gallon btu content would predict.

The new study, cosponsored by the U.S. Department of Energy and the
American Coalition for Ethanol (ACE), shows mid-range ethanol blends --
fuel mixtures with more ethanol than E10 (10% ethanol) but less than E85
(85% ethanol) -- can in some cases provide better fuel economy than
regular unleaded gasoline, even in standard, non-flex-fuel vehicles. The
new study also found that mid-range ethanol blends reduce harmful
tailpipe emissions and that vehicles without any adjustments can operate
well on higher ethanol blends than previously thought.

Previous assumptions held that ethanol's lower energy content should
always directly correlate with lower fuel economy for drivers. Those
assumptions were found to be wrong

"Initial findings indicate that we as a nation haven't begun to recognize
the value of ethanol," says Brian Jennings, ACE executive vice president.
"This is a compelling argument for more research on the promise of higher
ethanol blends in gasoline. There is strong evidence that the optimal
ethanol-gasoline blend for standard, non-flex-fuel vehicles is greater
than E10 and instead may be E20 or E30. We encourage the federal
government to move swiftly to research the use of higher ethanol blends
and make necessary approvals so that American motorists can have the
cost-effective ethanol choices they deserve at the pump."

The University of North Dakota Energy & Environmental Research Center
(EERC) and the Minnesota Center for Automotive Research (MnCAR) conducted
the research using four 2007 model vehicles: a Toyota Camry, a Ford
Fusion and two Chevrolet Impalas, one flex-fuel and one non-flex-fuel.
Researchers used the EPA Highway Fuel Economy Test (HWFET) to examine a
range of ethanol-gasoline blends from straight Tier 2 gasoline up to 85%
ethanol. All of the vehicles got better mileage with ethanol blends than
the ethanol's energy content would predict, and three out of four
actually traveled farther on a mid-level ethanol blend than on unleaded
gasoline.

The research provides strong evidence that standard, non-flex-fuel
vehicles can operate on ethanol blends beyond 10%. The three non-flex-
fuel vehicles tested operated on levels as high as E65 before any engine
fault codes were displayed. Emissions results for the ethanol blends were
also favorable for nitrogen oxides, carbon monoxide and non-methane
organic gases, showing an especially significant reduction in CO2
emissions for each vehicle's "optimal" ethanol blend (E20 for the flex-
fuel Chevy, E30 for the Toyota and Ford, E40 for the non-flex Chevy).

"These studies show that moderate 20-30% ethanol blends can reduce air
pollution, improve gas mileage and save drivers money in the most popular
cars on the road today," says Brett Hulsey, president of Better
Environmental Solutions, an environmental health consulting firm.
"Moderate ethanol blends are homegrown in America, can be delivered with
existing pumps to current vehicles and cost less than gasoline. Ethanol
lowers CO2 emissions 20% from gasoline, making it one of our most
effective greenhouse-gas-reduction programs currently in place."

For more information on the key findings of the study or to download the
full report, click here: www.ethanol.org/news.

KB

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Frank - 14 Dec 2007 17:39 GMT
The fallacy in this study is that it ignores the energy cost of ethanol
production and the economic cost increase on food production.  Of course
our legislators are too stupid to recognize this and will crucify us on
the ethanol cross.
Scott Dorsey - 14 Dec 2007 23:13 GMT
>The fallacy in this study is that it ignores the energy cost of ethanol
>production and the economic cost increase on food production.  Of course
>our legislators are too stupid to recognize this and will crucify us on
>the ethanol cross.

No problem, it's easy and cheap to make ethanol from petroleum now...
--scott
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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

clifto - 15 Dec 2007 05:33 GMT
>>The fallacy in this study is that it ignores the energy cost of ethanol
>>production and the economic cost increase on food production.  Of course
>>our legislators are too stupid to recognize this and will crucify us on
>>the ethanol cross.
>
> No problem, it's easy and cheap to make ethanol from petroleum now...

But farmers don't get petroleum subsidies.

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Dec. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Government officials and activists flying to Bali,
Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota - 15 Dec 2007 14:35 GMT
> >>The fallacy in this study is that it ignores the energy cost of ethanol
> >>production and the economic cost increase on food production.  Of course
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Indonesia, for the United Nations meeting on climate change will cause
> as much pollution as 20,000 cars in a year.

That's the problem I see now with the incentives to boost ethanol. I
don't think they require documentation on how it is produced, and I
believe most makers now use a lot of fossil fuels, natural gas if not
petroleum.  It takes a lot of heat to make ethanol.
HLS - 15 Dec 2007 14:50 GMT
"Don Stauffer in Minnesota" <stauffer@usfamily.net> wrote in message
news:c53fce6f-

> That's the problem I see now with the incentives to boost ethanol. I
> don't think they require documentation on how it is produced, and I
> believe most makers now use a lot of fossil fuels, natural gas if not
> petroleum.  It takes a lot of heat to make ethanol.

Corn is not the way to go.. Ethanol is a good enough fuel, but you cant
justify
using a bunch of petroleum to make a little alcohol.  The Brazilians do it
by
fermenting sugar cane juice (starch laden tubers like mandioca, potatoes,
etc can also be used).  These produce more fermentable starch than corn,
and do not require the levels of petroleum based nitrogen fertilizers that
corn
does.

They fire their distillation facilities, partly or wholly, with bagasse.
They are
now pretty much fuel independent and alcohol is one of the prime ways they
got to that stage.

Alcohol is a good plan, but not with this porkbarrel approach.
Scott Dorsey - 16 Dec 2007 17:36 GMT
>Alcohol is a good plan, but not with this porkbarrel approach.

The problem is that once you get the government subsidizing anything, that
is the approach you eventually wind up with.

The notion of producing ethanol from cellulose waste is a very intriguing
one.  I have not seen the actual power budget for the proposed process, but
there are a couple full scale plants that should be coming on line in the
next two years which will be using it.  If anything, this would seem the real
way to accomplish it; no cane or corn required and no petroleum either.
--scott

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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Frank - 15 Dec 2007 17:32 GMT
> That's the problem I see now with the incentives to boost ethanol. I
> don't think they require documentation on how it is produced, and I
> believe most makers now use a lot of fossil fuels, natural gas if not
> petroleum.  It takes a lot of heat to make ethanol.

Hydration of ethylene to ethanol probably takes no heat but there will
not be a government subsidy.  I don't know the economics today but many
years ago the cheapest source of industrial ethanol was from petroleum.

Same goes for hydrogen.

Politicians are not scientists and the environmentalists driving the
politicians to their idiocy are also not scientists.  Big industry,
whether petroleum or agribusiness will take advantage of the situation
created and we'll all pay for it with higher prices and taxes.
HLS - 15 Dec 2007 20:52 GMT
>> That's the problem I see now with the incentives to boost ethanol. I
>> don't think they require documentation on how it is produced, and I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> whether petroleum or agribusiness will take advantage of the situation
> created and we'll all pay for it with higher prices and taxes.

You got that right!

The issue is not to produce ethanol based on petroleum consumption.  It
should be to
find effective ways to use nonpetroleum alcohols to extend or replace
petroleum fuels.

We are a society that has been spoiled with the availability of cheap and
plentiful
hydrocarbon fuels.  The future might not allow us that continued luxury.
Scott Dorsey - 16 Dec 2007 17:39 GMT
>> That's the problem I see now with the incentives to boost ethanol. I
>> don't think they require documentation on how it is produced, and I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>not be a government subsidy.  I don't know the economics today but many
>years ago the cheapest source of industrial ethanol was from petroleum.

Were it not for corn farm subsidies, it would still be the cheapest
source.  It is, in fact, currently used in Russia to make cheap drinking
alchol, although it is illegal to sell drinking alcohol made in that
process in the US.

>Politicians are not scientists and the environmentalists driving the
>politicians to their idiocy are also not scientists.  Big industry,
>whether petroleum or agribusiness will take advantage of the situation
>created and we'll all pay for it with higher prices and taxes.

It would be nice if we actually had some folks in office who understood
basic scientific concepts as well as basic economic theory.  I blame the
country's education system on this.
--scott
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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Dorsey - 15 Dec 2007 14:43 GMT
>>>The fallacy in this study is that it ignores the energy cost of ethanol
>>>production and the economic cost increase on food production.  Of course
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>But farmers don't get petroleum subsidies.

No problem, we just elect a farmer to the White House and he'll do for
agriculture what Bush did for the petroleum industry.

No wait, we tried that with Carter....
--scott
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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Scott Buchanan - 16 Dec 2007 11:39 GMT
Scott: What does "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
mean?

> >>>The fallacy in this study is that it ignores the energy cost of ethanol
> >>>production and the economic cost increase on food production.  Of course
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> --
> "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
M.M. - 16 Dec 2007 17:07 GMT
> Scott: What does "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
> mean?

It's French..."It's a Nagra. It's Swiss and very, very accurate". I
believe that Nagra refers to a Swiss made tape recorder.

Having lived in Switzerland (Geneva) for a while, I'd say that almost
anything Swiss made is "very, very accurate"...
Scott Dorsey - 17 Dec 2007 15:13 GMT
>Scott: What does "C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
>mean?

"It's a Nagra.  It's Swiss, and very very precise."  The Nagra is a small
portable audio recorder much beloved in the film industry.  The signature
is actually a misquote from the film _Diva_ in which a Nagra III recorder
figures prominently.  By the time I figured out it was a slight misquote,
I'd been using it for more than 16 years and it was too late to change...
--scott

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"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

 
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