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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / January 2008I'm getting ripped off and don't know what to do
OK, here's what happened: I bought a 95 Ford Taurus with 88,000 miles for $1400 after taking it to a AAA approved private shop (they said the car had no probs at the moment but the car was old and could develop probs at any time). I drove it for a few weeks before the engine died while I was driving on the highway. I took it to the shop and they replaced the module. I drove a little on the street and th car was fine, but the next time I drove on the highway the same thing happened. I took it back to the shop and they said they didn't know what was wrong. They tried another module, different spark plugs but it didn't work. They said everything on the car works but it still won't start. They said it might be the computer but they didnt' have a way to test it. They charged me $60for the diagnostic even though they didn't diagnose the problem. I took it to an independent mechanic who fixes cars in his driveway. He said he'd call me in a day but never did. I called him several times but he didn't answer. Finally I reached him and he said he thinks it's the sensor relay box. He wants me to give him $45 to buy a used box. If that fixes it, great. If not, I can't return the box and I still have to pay for his labor. A Ford dealer said the diagnostic would be $70 to $130. I asked them if they would charge me even if they didn't find the problem, and they said no, but I have a feeling they'll find a way to get money out of me no matter what they say. OK, now here are my questions: 1. According to the AAA website: "AAR facilities make a commitment to fix your vehicle properly and all repairs are guaranteed by the facility for a minimum of 12 months or 12,000 miles*" I think it's safe to say that the first shop didn't do this. I called the AAA repair issues line, but there was no answer. I know that AAA doesnt' really have any power over the shops it approves, but I wonder if they could do something about it, like at least help me get a refund for the diagnostic (if not the module too). 2. Should I give the retired guy $45 and hope for the best or should I pay the Ford dealer the $100 for the diagnostic? I'm just so sick of being ripped off and not being able to do anything about it. Any advice would be appreciated! I forgot to mention that every time I move the car, I have to pay for the tow, so I hesitate to keep bringing it to different places. On Dec 29, 4:31 pm, fsamp...@gmail.com wrote: > OK, here's what happened: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Any advice would be appreciated! In the first place: AAA shouldn't be recommending un-equipped shops! If my memory serves me correctly, this has a distributor in it. Any diagnosis over NNTP is just a guess, but usually on the Ford systems, when you replace the module. You are supposed to replace the distributor pickup also. Ask the retired guy if it has spark, and if it has fuel. The distributor pickup sends a signal to the computer, to run the fuel pump as the engine is running. If there is no spark or fuel, turn the key on after sitting for at least 10 to 15 seconds, and have someone listen near the fuel tank. If you hear a whining sound for about two seconds after turning the key on, without cranking the engine. The fuel pump is running. So the next step is to check for fuel pressure. That's providing the engine has a spark. As for the $70.00 per hour for diagnostics, if the shop is well equipped. That is well within line. I do diagnostics for several shops, and get $75.00 for the first half hour, and $ 40.00 for every next half hour. but, I drive around with over $75,000.00 of equipment. I hope this helps. RK > OK, here's what happened: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Any advice would be appreciated! Hey, thanks for replying!! The AAA shop said it has spark and fuel. When they replaced the ignition module the first time, the bill just says "module- $130 for parts, $100 for labor." I assume that means they didn't replace the distributor pickup, right? If the car has been sitting for awhile, then it will start when I turn the key, but only for about 10 seconds. Then it dies again. One of the guys at the AAA shop said computers don't break unless something in the car is causing it to break, which means I'll need to find that other thing if the computer is the problem. He also said if it's not the computer, it might just be a disconnected or old wire, which is cheap to fix but hard to find. Also, I wanted to know if the kind of work the AAA shop did was normal. I paid $230 for the module replacement and the car ran but only for about 20 miles in the city before the same problem happened. Then they tried (and failed) to diagnose the prob, and I had to pay $60 for that. Is this typical?? > In the first place: > [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > > > Any advice would be appreciated! Is this a 3.8 V-6 by chance? If so, there might be an underlying problem: i.e..: head gaskets. There is no such thing as a: "Malfunction relay!" It might be a relay, if not the air bad crash sensor, but it is a relay named for the circuit it controls. RK > Hey, thanks for replying!! > [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] >> >> > Any advice would be appreciated! On Dec 29, 6:31 pm, fsamp...@gmail.com wrote: > OK, here's what happened: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Any advice would be appreciated! The Module he is referring to is the multifunction relay up by the core support mounted to the radiator. It has one unusually large letter on it like a "J". It runs many things on a ford, I can not name them all. I sell these like candy over the counter, it is a good guess. The first part they replaced was the ignition module and is usually one of the culprits that causes no spark. A better question is if you have spark? Try spraying starter fluid into the Throttle Body while some one tries to start it. If it hits and stays running while your spraying ether then it may be a fuel problem. In which case the old guy is right and it is the multifunction relay :) > 2. Should I give the retired guy $45 and hope for the best or should I > pay the Ford dealer the $100 for the diagnostic? > > I'm just so sick of being ripped off and not being able to do anything > about it. Forget AAA, that's a dead end road. Take it to the Ford dealer who can do a proper computer diagnostic. Pay the money! And, how do you know you're being ripped off? Sometimes, when I work on things there are other problems that don't show up until after one problem is fixed. > OK, here's what happened: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > Any advice would be appreciated! Well assuming you have an intact bottom end, your ether have spark or you don't You either have enough fuel pressure or you don't You noids are firing or there not. I would start with a timing light on he plug wires. if you got bright strobe you probably got spark. If not, its module and dist check time. When cranking, what's the fuel rail pressure? Was the fuel filter changed? If you got spark and fuel pressure, you need a noid light to see if there firing. It is possible that the MF module on top of the radiator that controls the fuel pump had a bad connection and is causing you not to have enough fuel pressure. I junked a taurus once that had wiring abraded where it crossed the drivers side of the engine and was shorting out. The two no starts i had on my 93 was a bad TFI module, and once the coil failed. Bob Bob >I bought a 95 Ford Taurus with 88,000 miles for $1400 after taking it >to a AAA approved private shop (they said the car had no probs at the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >computer but they didnt' have a way to test it. They charged me $60for >the diagnostic even though they didn't diagnose the problem. What module? This is the ignition module? >I took it to an independent mechanic who fixes cars in his driveway. >He said he'd call me in a day but never did. I called him several >times but he didn't answer. Finally I reached him and he said he >thinks it's the sensor relay box. He wants me to give him $45 to buy a >used box. If that fixes it, great. If not, I can't return the box and >I still have to pay for his labor. That seems fair. >A Ford dealer said the diagnostic would be $70 to $130. I asked them >if they would charge me even if they didn't find the problem, and they >said no, but I have a feeling they'll find a way to get money out of >me no matter what they say. Sure, that's their business. But they are also in business to fix the problem. >OK, now here are my questions: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >if they could do something about it, like at least help me get a >refund for the diagnostic (if not the module too). Write them a letter and see. >2. Should I give the retired guy $45 and hope for the best or should I >pay the Ford dealer the $100 for the diagnostic? I dunno. Are you in a hurry for this? I'd take it to the dealer and let the dealer worry about it. You don't fix things with "diagnostics," though, you fix things by looking at signals and tracing through the system step by step. If the retired guy is able to that, fine. But if he's going to just swap parts randomly until he finds the problem, this is a bad thing. Likewise the dealer may do that too; I have seen it before. You need to go to someone who has actual diagnostic skills and have him track through the system. Not to a parts-swapper. >I'm just so sick of being ripped off and not being able to do anything >about it. So far, you have got what you paid for, though. You paid for unskilled labour, and you got it. I don't see any ripoff. You can pay money for someone who knows how to fix it, or you can pay more money for someone who doesn't. --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." Refinish King- Can you say more about the distributor pickup and head gaskets? Geofreeparts- The AAA place already tried spraying fuel and it didn't work. Could it still be the multifunction relay or does this test rule it out completely? Bob Urz- The AAA shop said all the individual parts worked. They tested them and they were fine and they don't know why the car wont' start. They said they used some kind of machine to see how many milliseconds the something-or-other-stayed open and the machine read zero. Does this help? I don't think they changed the fuel filter. Do you think it's the wiring? Is this expensive to fix? Scott Dorsey- To see where I was ripped off, see my previous post on Dec 29: "Also, I wanted to know if the kind of work the AAA shop did was normal. I paid $230 for the module replacement and the car ran but only for about 20 miles in the city before the same problem happened. Then they tried (and failed) to diagnose the prob, and I had to pay $60 for that." Also, the independent guy won't answer his phone or return my calls. > Refinish King- Can you say more about the distributor pickup and head > gaskets? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Also, the independent guy won't answer his phone or return my calls. The independent guy is likely waiting to see what everyone has to say here first. ;-) I have seen instances where everything under the hood fires up but the computer just doesn't know what to do with it when the vehicle's body ground went bad. There is usually a strap or a cable from the battery negative to the body. These tend to rot out in the salt belt. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com ============ ============ (concerning his recent purchase of a 13 year old Taurus, and the impending repair debacle) "Also, I wanted to know if the kind of work the AAA shop did was normal. I paid $230 for the module replacement and the car ran but only for about 20 miles in the city before the same problem happened. Then they tried (and failed) to diagnose the prob, and I had to pay $60 for that." Also, the independent guy won't answer his phone or return my calls. ============== ============== ~~Random Thoughts~~ You now own a 13 year old Taurus, and ALL that that entails. rotflmao ~~End......Random Thoughts~~ I.....ME.....MYSELF......ALONE........will now offer YOU the BEST advice you're gonna get............and the ONLY advice that's going to help you !!! SELL IT FAST!! TAKE A LOSS if necessary!! UNLOAD IT on someone just like someone unloaded it on YOU !! or...... Keep chunk'n money at it till the symptoms go away. (and, you show all the signs of haveing limited funds) -------------------- As to your direct questions, Yes......the kind of work that the shop did IS normal. Hopefully, one day.......they'll all die off and top notch service will be the norm....but, untill then.....YES....misdiagnostics is VERY NORMAL in the auto repair industry. Anyone that argues that FACT has either not spent ALOT of time within the industry, is living in a fantasy world, or......is a liar!! (there, i said it, i feel better) :) As to the felluh that WON'T answer his phone....... uh..hmmm........... you that dim??? :) oh.....sorry.......forgot....you bought a 13 year old Taurus. :) ~:~ MarshMonster ~takes a sip of his shroomjuice.......~ ~:~ Mike- I thought of asking the retired guy to take a look at this thread but he's old and not a fan of the Internet Marsh Monster- People don't buy old cars because they're dim, they buy them because they can't afford a new car. I'll be driving crappy cars at least until graduation (2 years). Your advice helps you (by giving you the opportunity insult people anonymously) but unfortunately doesn't help me. I tried selling it as-is for $700 but had no offers. If I buy another car and can't sell the Taurus for awhile, the most I can spend is $1800. Everyone else- I'm going to buy the $45 part. If that doesn't work, I'll have to pay to tow it to the Ford Dealer. If they give me an estimate of more than $200, I'll try to sell it for a bit less than I paid minus the estimate and start looking for another car which will, unfortunately, be just as old and crappy as the current one. If the estimate is less than $200, I'll fix it and keep it. Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge and willingness to help I found here. Cheers! > ============ > ============ [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > ~takes a sip of his shroomjuice.......~ > ~:~ Marsh is a good guy: He's just a guy that loves to mess with people. I do it all the time. RK Mike- I thought of asking the retired guy to take a look at this thread but he's old and not a fan of the Internet Marsh Monster- People don't buy old cars because they're dim, they buy them because they can't afford a new car. I'll be driving crappy cars at least until graduation (2 years). Your advice helps you (by giving you the opportunity insult people anonymously) but unfortunately doesn't help me. I tried selling it as-is for $700 but had no offers. If I buy another car and can't sell the Taurus for awhile, the most I can spend is $1800. Everyone else- I'm going to buy the $45 part. If that doesn't work, I'll have to pay to tow it to the Ford Dealer. If they give me an estimate of more than $200, I'll try to sell it for a bit less than I paid minus the estimate and start looking for another car which will, unfortunately, be just as old and crappy as the current one. If the estimate is less than $200, I'll fix it and keep it. Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge and willingness to help I found here. Cheers! On Dec 30, 4:18 pm, Marsh Monster <MarshMonster2...@aol.com> wrote: > ============ > ============ [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > ~takes a sip of his shroomjuice.......~ > ~:~ You need to find a competent mechanic who can read a service manual and has diagnostic tools. If a shop want to guess on what the problem is, then go somewhere else. ========== ========== Marsh Monster- People don't buy old cars because they're dim, they buy them because they can't afford a new car. I'll be driving crappy cars at least until graduation (2 years). �Your advice helps you (by giving you the opportunity insult people anonymously) but unfortunately doesn't help me. I tried selling it as-is for $700 but had no offers. If I buy another car and can't sell the Taurus for awhile, the most I can spend is $1800. Everyone else- I'm going to buy the $45 part. If that doesn't work, I'll have to pay to tow it to the Ford Dealer. If they give me an estimate of more than $200, I'll try to sell it for a bit less than I paid minus the estimate and start looking for another car which will, unfortunately, be just as old and crappy as the current one. If the estimate is less than $200, I'll fix it and keep it. Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I'm impressed by the amount of knowledge and willingness to help I found here. Cheers! ================= ================= James, Do me a favor aye.......??...... :) SAVE .....YOUR.......latest reply, then, after graduation, do a repost and explain to me........how my reply offended you. That will enable you 2 years to read your OWN words. Which......states that your intentions are to do EXACTLY what I STATED were your ONLY OPTIONS. Sell it, or pay to fix it with limited funds. anywhooooo........ As to folks buy'n used cars and NOT being "dim"....... I didn't call you dim......I asked if you were!! :) And, if we're gonna git inna spit'n match on this.....wouldn't it be honest to say......you shudda done a bit of research in here on the purchase of the car FIRST. You stated you'll be graduating in 2 years. High School or College? My guess would be college, but in that end, I would expect someone with the ability to pass an entrance exam to have the menial abilities of "reasonable" thought process's. You began this thread with a cry for help. Fact, not fiction.....it WAS a cry for help. You HAVE YET to offer up the info of whether you have contacted the party from which you purchased this car, and if you have even bothered to ask that party if the car was experiencing these symptoms WHEN YOU BOUGHT IT!! :) Regardless of that......you have shown signs of having extremely poor "reasoning" and "judgement" in the area of making informed decisions on matters that affect your future. Not only does THIS statement assuredly appy to the character traits you have shown in this thread, but more importantly, you have put forth the trait of not takeing responsibility for YOUR own actions. It was YOU who purchased this piece of sh.t. It was YOU who ALLOWED the service provider to screw you outta over $260. It IS YOU who now allows someone ELSE to yank yer chain around on a repair process....(won't answer the phone??) !! It IS you that has to make all the final decisions concerning this ordeal that YOU created. It has been YOU that keeps paying tow bills to have this piece of sht hauled all over town. Son........go back......read my original reply. It was short, sweet, to the point, and NOT pointedly aimed at causing you anymore distress than YOU have already caused yourself. Do yourself a favor in life, don't be a blamer.......huff off the fact that the repair shop fk'd you. Huff off the fact that you got taken on the purchase. (cuz you did) Huff off the fact that YOU don't like being slapped in the face with the gawd awfull truth that you've made piss poor judgement during this entire car debacle from start to now..........do yourself a favor in this life....the only one you get.......and........don't be a blamer.....take responsiblitly for the fact that YOU fk up from time to time and no ones to blame in the end but yourself. Do that for yourself and lifes gonna be a giggle instead of a pain in the a.s everytime you do fk up, cuz then....you can simply pat yourself on the back and say ...."fk....he was rite....i AM human". Good luck with that school thing.....Good luck with this car thing. Good luck with your young life, it's gonna be over before you know it so make the best of it. ------------------------- Now........as to buy'n used cars....... I drive a used car, King drives a used car, Cuda drives a used car, Mike drives a used car. You have 4 guys who drive, work, repair, expect to pay for repairs......on used cars......giving you advice. Advice that comes from YEARS of experience (except for Cuda....we suspect him to be a 17 yearold highschool dropout with illegal access to ALLDATA)............all this advice is GUESSWORK son...because that's all we can do without having enough info to do better. You have over 100 years of combined experience in driving and repairing used cars telling you that you HAVE TO SPEND MONEY on this thing to fix it. You're just not listening. And......you didn't like the way I personally cut throught the chase and said it. Oh well.. :) Now......you being an EDUCATED individual....go back and read my original reply, then read your last reply, then do a repost and show me where my BEST ADVICE......differs from the actions you said you're gonna take. :) in closing......... Pay someone to diagnose it......then you fix it. Pay someone to diagnose it and fix it. Sell it...take a loss if necessary. or........go fk yerself. :) ~:~ marsh ~takes a toke......tells the bartender to line one up for the room...... and make the kids a sasperilla~ ~:~ In article <a3e12e2c-58e1-409e-a1c3-237acaa35224@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com >, > Now........as to buy'n used cars....... > I drive a used car, King drives a used car, Cuda drives a used car, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > him to be a 17 yearold highschool dropout with illegal access to > ALLDATA)........... ha-hah-ha... I wish I was 17 years old. Nope, no illegal access to Alldata, no legal access either. Not a high school dropout either, diploma issued 36 years ago, back when correct answers were the criteria, not whether or not your feelings were hurt because you were wrong. Been using Mitchell for over 15 years, used to sell it so that's what I'm familiar with. Pay 'em their $150 a month. Runs real nice on this new Apple computer too. So, you can wish all you want, won't make it a bit true. > In article > <a3e12e2c-58e1-409e-a1c3-237acaa35...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > So, you can wish all you want, won't make it a bit true. ======= ======= 36 YEARS AGO !!!!! ??????? I knew it. Yer jest a kid. ~:~ marsh ~sips his crownroyal.......wonders if you were 23 when you graduated......mite be wrong bout that kid thing~ ~:~ In article <706224fa-4175-4656-b7e1-002557332aed@21g2000hsj.googlegroups.com >, > > In article > > <a3e12e2c-58e1-409e-a1c3-237acaa35...@t1g2000pra.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > graduated......mite be wrong bout that kid thing~ > ~:~ No and yes. > In article > <706224fa-4175-4656-b7e1-002557332...@21g2000hsj.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > - Show quoted text - =========== =========== lol ~:~ mm ~pours the kid a drink~ ~:~ Maybe he can't figure what the problem is? I don't have my information at home, so I can't tell you what the relay on the radiator support is, but it is most definitely called a: "Malfunction Relay". Like Marsh Monster said: "Improper diagnostics are the norm!: I make my living diagnosing for other shops. I'll try to get to the shop tomorrow, to see what is on the radiator support. But, I think it's a crash sensor for the air bags. RK > Refinish King- Can you say more about the distributor pickup and head > gaskets? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Also, the independent guy won't answer his phone or return my calls. > Maybe he can't figure what the problem is? > > I don't have my information at home, so I can't tell you what the relay on > the radiator support is, but it is most definitely called a: "Malfunction > Relay". -Is- or -isn't-? > Like Marsh Monster said: "Improper diagnostics are the norm!: > > I make my living diagnosing for other shops. > > I'll try to get to the shop tomorrow, to see what is on the radiator > support. But, I think it's a crash sensor for the air bags. I'll save you the trip... It's the CCRM (constant control relay module), in earlier years (like 20 years ago) it was called IRCM (integrated relay control module). And no, they aren't airbag crash sensors. > RK > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > > > Also, the independent guy won't answer his phone or return my calls. OOPS! I can't type either. It's not called a malfunction relay. My mistype, sorry! RK > Maybe he can't figure what the problem is? > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> >> Also, the independent guy won't answer his phone or return my calls. |
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