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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2008

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Engine won't turn over after positive battery clamp came off

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GasUsed2b35centspg - 28 Apr 2008 00:39 GMT
I just went down to start my 1995 Honda Civic Ex and first noticed that I
didn't hear the beeps from the alarm.  When I was able to start the engine, I
opened the hood and realized the positive battery clamp completely came off
the positive terminal.  I put it back on (it's still loose and the screw/nut
combo can't be tightened any more than it currently is)  and while I heard
the ignition, the engine wouldn't turn over.
I see the battery and gas tank lights, along with the abs, etc. on the dash
panel.

The gas gauge is almost, but not quite on empty, which usually means I have a
few gallons left (the low gas warning light hadn't come on).

Is it possible that the battery is drained because the negative clamp was
still connected?  After the positive clamp was reattached (but still not
tight), I was able to turn the alarm on and off.   When I try to start the
car, the sound of the engine is much stronger than it sounds when one knows
the battery is completely drained.

I'm going to bring down my portable battery and see if I can start the car
that way.  I just bought this Kirkland battery 2 months ago, and had my car
repair place install it.
GasUsed2b35centspg - 28 Apr 2008 00:43 GMT
When I was able to start the engine, I
>opened the hood and realized the positive battery clamp completely came off
>the positive terminal.

Sorry - what I meant to write was "when I was able to look under the hood, I
ealized the positive battery clamp completely came off the positive terminal.
Steve B. - 28 Apr 2008 01:22 GMT
>Is it possible that the battery is drained because the negative clamp was
>still connected?  After the positive clamp was reattached (but still not
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>that way.  I just bought this Kirkland battery 2 months ago, and had my car
>repair place install it.

It sounds like the engine is spinning it just doesn't start.  Is this
correct?

If there are also other wires on the plosive clamp assembly make sure
they are all still connected and have a good connection. Unfortunately
the cable most likely came off when you were last driving the car.
The alternator can go kind of nuts when there is no battery connected
and it is possible that you have other damage now. Hopefully it is
limited to a fusible link or two.

If someone put this battery in for you I would be on the phone
tomorrow morning raising kane!  No sense in that kind of shoddy work.

         Steve B.
Woody - 28 Apr 2008 02:01 GMT
If the clamp is loose you won't be able to draw the 250 amps the starter
needs to turn over the engine. Shim the clamp and tighten it then see if
there is a problem.

>I just went down to start my 1995 Honda Civic Ex and first noticed that I
> didn't hear the beeps from the alarm.  When I was able to start the
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> car
> repair place install it.
Calab - 28 Apr 2008 02:14 GMT
> I just went down to start my 1995 Honda Civic Ex and first noticed that I
> didn't hear the beeps from the alarm.  When I was able to start the engine, I
> opened the hood and realized the positive battery clamp completely came off
> the positive terminal.  I put it back on (it's still loose and the screw/nut
> combo can't be tightened any more than it currently is)  and while I heard
> the ignition, the engine wouldn't turn over.

The starter needs a LOT of power to turn the engine over properly. As
long as that clamp is loose, it won't start.

You can do one of two things... Buy a replacement clamp and repair the
positive wire, OR they make lead post covers that make the post larger
and then you can clamp over that.

I vote for replacing the clamp.

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GasUsed2b35centspg - 28 Apr 2008 05:38 GMT
>You can do one of two things... Buy a replacement clamp and repair the
>positive wire, OR they make lead post covers that make the post larger
>and then you can clamp over that.
>
>I vote for replacing the clamp.

Thanks for your responses.  

Should I have any problem starting the car with my Prestone jumper battery,
which has never failed before (even when prior batteries were completely
drained)?  As I said, I just noticed that the clamp was off this afternoon,
and I hadn't driven the car in a day and a half.    At the very least, I'd
like to drive the car back to the service station and let them fix or replace
the clamp at no charge

If I pull off the loose positive clamp, should I take off the negative one
too, before I use a wrench to tighten the clamp nut?

I read another post here stating that the  negative post of the battery
controls the rest of the car (alarm, lights, etc.).  If that's true, can this
battery recharge itself or will I need to replace the battery?
Don Bruder - 28 Apr 2008 06:11 GMT
> >You can do one of two things... Buy a replacement clamp and repair the
> >positive wire, OR they make lead post covers that make the post larger
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> controls the rest of the car (alarm, lights, etc.).  If that's true, can this
> battery recharge itself or will I need to replace the battery?

When wrenching on the battery, it's generally a *REALLY* good idea to
pull the negative clamp before doing anything on the positive side -
When the negative side is hooked up, any contact between the positive
post and the body of the car equals "dead short" - The level of
"interesting" that results from creating such a short can vary from
"look at all the pretty sparks" to "Wow... I didn't know a wrench could
be turned into a puddle of glowing hot liquid so quickly. Boy, it really
sucks having a wrench turn to liquid and dribble through your
fingers..." or a near infinite number of variations between those
extremes. So yes, it's a good idea to disconnect the negative side
before you put a wrench n the positive side. Since the negative post is
already connected to the rest of the car, it doesn't matter if you bang
the wrench against the body while tightening (or loosening) the bolt on
that side.

As far as the "negative side controls the rest of the car" - I don't
recall seeing that post, but if that's what got said, whoever wrote it
was talking out his a.s about something he clearly knows *ABSOLUTELY
NOTHING* about.

As for the rest of your trouble, like others have said, get that clamp
tight. And don't be horribly surprised if the alternator is toast - As
stated elsewhere, the alternator can do some really odd things when the
load presented by the battery isn't in the circuit like it should be. As
an example, I had a cable shake loose on a washboard road one night
while doing my paper route. Within a matter of seconds, I lost every
light bulb that was powered up at the time - Both headlights and all of
the marker lights fried, the dome light popped, the bulb in the radio
puked, and I had to replace every one of the "light up the instrument
panel" bulbs. Fortunately, the vehicle was an older rig with no computer
to be fried by the massive over-voltage, so I was able to drive it home
once daylight came and I could see to drive, but I have little doubt
that if it had a computer module in it, that would probably have cooked
off and outright killed the vehicle.

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or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
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delbert brecht - 28 Apr 2008 21:45 GMT
Don Bruder4/28/08 1:11J7idnaL8bagdwYjVnZ2dnUVZ_tKinZ2d@comcast.com

>> If I pull off the loose positive clamp, should I take off the negative one
>> too, before I use a wrench to tighten the clamp nut?
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> the wrench against the body while tightening (or loosening) the bolt on
> that side.
<snip>
Dan, what a great sense of humor. I would like to add another caveat about
working on batteries. Whenever working on batteries, always wear a good pair
of wrap around safety goggles. During normal charging processes, the battery
generates hydrogen gas which mixes with the oxygen inside the battery.
During some conditions (like a dead short with a wrench or an internal
short) it is possible for that gas mixture to ignite (read explode). When it
does, the battery literally blows up and sprays sulfuric acid all over
everything. Your eyesight is too precious to play fast and loose with. Never
jump start a car without protecting your eyes. You should also make the
final connection to a grounded body part well away from the battery so if
there is a spark it won't occur near a battery. Read up on proper jump start
procedure before you need it to get all the details. Do it right.
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Pickleman
halfsour@roadyourpantsrunner.com
Please remove "yourpants" to reply
1998 Civic HX MT with 142K
2000 CRV EX MT with 98K

N8N - 28 Apr 2008 14:45 GMT
> >You can do one of two things... Buy a replacement clamp and repair the
> >positive wire, OR they make lead post covers that make the post larger
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> which has never failed before (even when prior batteries were completely
> drained)?

Not if you attached the jumper battery to the clamps directly.  If it
still doesn't start, or at least try to (the jumper battery may not be
quite strong enough to start the car all by itself) you may have more
issues than just the clamp.

nate
N8N - 28 Apr 2008 14:44 GMT
> > I just went down to start my 1995 Honda Civic Ex and first noticed that I
> > didn't hear the beeps from the alarm.  When I was able to start the engine, I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I vote for replacing the clamp.

I vote for replacing the whole cable, unless the OP is equipped to use
one of those solder-filled marine type replacement clamps.  The
regular parts store ones are good in a pinch, but that's about it.

nate
GasUsed2b35centspg - 28 Apr 2008 22:52 GMT
Well, I just spent a whole day with the car.   First I tried to use my jumper
battery and after that didn't work, I went for a gallon of gas, thinking the
tank was near empty.   That was also no help, so it was time to call for a
tow to the repair station.    Once I got it in for repair, the first
diagnosis was the distributor went because there wasn't a spark when trying
to start the car.  Remember that there wasn't a problem with the battery as
the lights, radio, and engine were cranking.   The engine just wouldn't start.

After I came home, I received a call from the tech who said that upon further
inspection, it wasn't the distributor.  When he looked under the dashboard,
he noticed my computer was missing!  
That's probably why I saw the positive battery clamp off the terminal last
night.  When someone broke in to steal the computer, to shut the alarm they
disengaged the positive clamp from the battery.
Why would anyone want a 1995 Civic Ex computer?   Is this common?

I don't know how a thief into the car so easily.   There's a Chapman lock for
the hood, and there's no sign of forced entry.  

Anyone know where to get a new one?   I see that RockAuto has one that has to
be ordered.
Steve W. - 28 Apr 2008 23:09 GMT
> After I came home, I received a call from the tech who said that upon further
> inspection, it wasn't the distributor.  When he looked under the dashboard,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I don't know how a thief into the car so easily.   There's a Chapman lock for
> the hood, and there's no sign of forced entry.  

Probably one of the local "tuner crowd" stole it because they blew up
theirs doing the latest mod.

Signature

Steve W.

GasUsed2b35centspg - 29 Apr 2008 04:37 GMT
>Probably one of the local "tuner crowd" stole it because they blew up
>theirs doing the latest mod.

What model years would this computer fit and does anyone know of good online
sites for replacement ones?
Steve W. - 29 Apr 2008 06:30 GMT
>> Probably one of the local "tuner crowd" stole it because they blew up
>> theirs doing the latest mod.
>
> What model years would this computer fit and does anyone know of good online
> sites for replacement ones?

Well from the book it looks like they use the same base computer in a
LOT of different vehicles, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, Mercury, Mazda,
Infinity, Lexus all have it listed. Years from 1982-1995. They are then
programmed with a unit to match what your vehicle needs.

Rock Auto doesn't sell the one you need, They offer a rebuild and return
but you need a unit to send them first.

37820 P28 A52 seems to be the OEM part you need. About $500.00 new.
Try here for more info.
http://www.honda-ecu.com

Signature

Steve W.

Mike - 29 Apr 2008 15:34 GMT
>>Probably one of the local "tuner crowd" stole it because they blew up
>>theirs doing the latest mod.
>
> What model years would this computer fit and does anyone know of good online
> sites for replacement ones?

 Try this place, I haven't used them but they allow you to search the entire
USA.

http://www.car-part.com/index.htm
GasUsed2b35centspg - 29 Apr 2008 17:23 GMT
>>>Probably one of the local "tuner crowd" stole it because they blew up
>>>theirs doing the latest mod.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> http://www.car-part.com/index.htm

Thanks for the links.

Both Car-part.com and Honda-Ecu are good links, as is Majestichonda -
http://www.hondaautomotiveparts.com/home.htm.  

Car-parts.com gave me alot of options and most are in the $100 to $200 range
for a used computer.
Nothing can replace this one though, as the car only had 21,000 miles on it
(no kidding - it was hardly driven as it was a 2nd car).

I think my repair tech is looking at getting a used one in the $300 range or
so, so I'll let him do the searching as he's going to have to install it.
Any ideas as to what labor charges should be?
GasUsed2b35centspg - 29 Apr 2008 17:25 GMT
This car has a factory alarm, and it never was set to go off if the hood and
trunk were opened.  It only seems to go off if the front doors or engine is
started.   At this stage of the game, does it pay to upgrade the alarm?
Scott Dorsey - 30 Apr 2008 02:25 GMT
>This car has a factory alarm, and it never was set to go off if the hood and
>trunk were opened.  It only seems to go off if the front doors or engine is
>started.   At this stage of the game, does it pay to upgrade the alarm?

No.  People ignore car alarms.  False alarms are so common that car alarms
no longer cause anyone to even look out the window any longer.  Alarms are
not effective at preventing theft, even a little.
--scott
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N8N - 29 Apr 2008 17:27 GMT
On Apr 29, 12:23 pm, "GasUsed2b35centspg via CarKB.com" <u43225@uwe>
wrote:
> >>>Probably one of the local "tuner crowd" stole it because they blew up
> >>>theirs doing the latest mod.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> so, so I'll let him do the searching as he's going to have to install it.
> Any ideas as to what labor charges should be?

Minimal, unless it's hidden somewhere difficult to access.  He'll
probably charge you a couple hours for troubleshooting etc. but the
actual install is really no big deal.  I can change the computer in my
944 in about half an hour, taking my time etc.

nate
GasUsed2b35centspg - 29 Apr 2008 18:03 GMT
>Minimal, unless it's hidden somewhere difficult to access.  He'll
>probably charge you a couple hours for troubleshooting etc. but the
>actual install is really no big deal.  I can change the computer in my
>944 in about half an hour, taking my time etc.
>
>nate

Are you a technician or just handy with cars?   I'm pretty good with home
wiring and computers, so I'm wondering if I followed an instruction manual,
would I be able to install it myself in the future?

Isn't  there any additional programming needed to be done by the repair
station, or a device it needs to be hooked up to?

Now I'm beginning to think I should call around and buy a spare used one.
Nate Nagel - 29 Apr 2008 23:09 GMT
>>Minimal, unless it's hidden somewhere difficult to access.  He'll
>>probably charge you a couple hours for troubleshooting etc. but the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Are you a technician or just handy with cars?  

I know just enough to be *REALLY* dangerous :)

> I'm pretty good with home
> wiring and computers, so I'm wondering if I followed an instruction manual,
> would I be able to install it myself in the future?

Probably.

> Isn't  there any additional programming needed to be done by the repair
> station, or a device it needs to be hooked up to?

This would depend on your particular car, and the manufacturer's method
of setting up computers for different vehicles/drivetrains.  They may
use the same part number computer for many different vehicles, and just
reflash the firmware for the specific app.  Or they may have a different
part number for each different combination.  Short answer, I don't know.

nate

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Woody - 29 Apr 2008 23:40 GMT
You need the prom that matches your car otherwise the computer is useless.
Since you don't have that it is going to be difficult to get it matched so
let the mechanic do it and hope he knows how to get it working correctly.

>>>Minimal, unless it's hidden somewhere difficult to access.  He'll
>>>probably charge you a couple hours for troubleshooting etc. but the
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> nate
z - 01 May 2008 19:20 GMT
> > > I just went down to start my 1995 Honda Civic Ex and first noticed that I
> > > didn't hear the beeps from the alarm.  When I was able to start the engine, I
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> nate

yep

the honda clamps are crummy
aftermarket clamps attaching to the cable are kind of klugy, best to
just get a whole cable with clamp.
note that the honda positive clamp has another terminal where the
wiring for everything except the starter attaches. make sure the
replacement cable has this.
which brings me to the point: make sure that that connection is still
connected on your current loose clamp; if they left the clamp loose,
they may well have left that disconnected. although i think that would
probably not let the starter spin, but who knows....
 
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