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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2008No grease on lug nuts
A garage mech told me today never to grease the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes it easier for them to back off i.e. become loose. Opinions?  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > A garage mech told me today never to grease > the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes > it easier for them to back off i.e. become loose. > Opinions? Never grease lug nuts. It causes over tightening that leads to warped rotors. > Never grease lug nuts. > It causes over tightening that leads to warped rotors. A wet torque is better than a dry torque. If the lug nuts on a car are supposed to have a torque of 75 ft lb, how does applying grease make you torque them to more than 75 ft lb?!?! Get grease in your eye and can't see the dial, or get it on your hand and slip off before you hear the click?!?! Please, what are your suggestions for anti-seize, WD40, CRC and oil. Penetrating oil allowed?!?! So, when I put oil on my squeaky wheel barrel tire, I ‘m actually tightening it?!?! >> Never grease lug nuts. >> It causes over tightening that leads to warped rotors. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > WD40, CRC and oil. Penetrating oil allowed?!?! So, when I put oil on > my squeaky wheel barrel tire, I ‘m actually tightening it?!?! I disagree. We were taught in FoMoCo classes to never oil, grease, or antisieze nuts and bolts without specific instructions from the mfg to do so. Yes, the torque is the same but the stretch is different. Your wheel barrel does not have disk brakes that often run very hot. > > Never grease lug nuts. > > It causes over tightening that leads to warped rotors. > > A wet torque is better than a dry torque. If the lug nuts on a car are > supposed to have a torque of 75 ft lb, how does applying grease make > you torque them to more than 75 ft lb?!?! Errr..it doesn't force you to do anything, but a 75 ft-lb "wet" torque will generate a higher tensile value in the male fastener than will a "dry" torque of 75 ft-lb. The torque reading is simply a measure of the frictional resistance to tightening the fasteners. Various combinations of dry, lube, plating, all give different torque-tensile relationships. >> Never grease lug nuts. >> It causes over tightening that leads to warped rotors. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > WD40, CRC and oil. Penetrating oil allowed?!?! So, when I put oil on > my squeaky wheel barrel tire, I ‘m actually tightening it?!?! Doesn't quite work like that. Unless otherwise 'specifically' stated, all torques are given for dry components. The difference can be the bolt being rally tight with the proper dry torque to actually snapping with a wet torque. If you want to mix, there are charts around for the equivalent wet to dry torque for clamping force. Something like a 60% difference. Mike > never to grease > the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes > it easier for them to back off i.e. become loose. > Opinions? a definite and absolute NO. Never put grease or oil on them. >A garage mech told me today never to grease > the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes > it easier for them to back off i.e. become loose. > Opinions? Well, that concept is horseshit... You dont use grease because the specifications are made of clean dry threads, and you will exceed the acceptable tension of the bolt if you use grease without compensating in torque readings. IF you compensate by decreasing the torque for greased threads, then you can get the same, or nearly the same bolt stretch (tension) by using greased bolt threads. This is the true clamping force. I have never seen a bolt loosen which has been properly torqued in the first place, whether lubricated or not. If this were the case, you couldnt keep connecting rod bolts tight. That is a myth, an old mechanics tale, BS. >>A garage mech told me today never to grease >> the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > That is a myth, an old mechanics tale, BS. So, what about greasing the face of the nut, where it presses against the wheel? SignatureFight Usenet Spam!!! - http://improve-usenet.org:80/ Want a great newsgroup reader that will filter out the flood of newgroup spam? Try MesNews - http://www.mesnews.net/gb/ If you want your posts to be seen, DON'T USE GOOGLE GROUPS! >>> A garage mech told me today never to grease >>> the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > So, what about greasing the face of the nut, where it presses against > the wheel? The contact between those two friction surfaces creates some of the torque. To get the same 100 ft lbs, the nut will have to be turned more creating more stress and stretch. "Paul" <Paul@slowcast.net> wrote in message > The contact between those two friction surfaces creates some of the > torque. > To get the same 100 ft lbs, the nut will have to be turned more creating > more stress and stretch. If you can measure bolt elongation (and you can), you can attain the required clamping force irrespective of the observed torque.. Torque in foot pounds is only relevant if the condition of the threads and the friction between the bolt face and metal surface are within the bounds which the engineer intended. (A nut that is a few thousandths of an inch narrower in bore or wider will also affect this.) This does not mean that you cannot grease the threads and achieve a perfectly useful clamping force, but you will not do it at the same observed torque that you did with dry threads. Some years ago, I searched the internet and found the concensus that to use greased threads, you need to drop the torque figures by about 20-25 percent. I have no idea whether this is valid or not. I never grease (or oil either) lug nuts.Put them on there dry. cuhulin ONLY time to grease is if specs SPECIFICALLY call for it. Default torque is dry. Pete > ONLY time to grease is if specs SPECIFICALLY call for it. Default > torque is dry. > > Pete We have all agreed to this many times over. It is not the only answer but it is the answer for people who want simple answers. >I never grease (or oil either) lug nuts.Put them on there dry. > cuhulin That is a good boy, cuhulin > I never grease (or oil either) lug nuts.Put them on there dry. > cuhulin I never grease my nuts either. I just don't see how it makes any sense at all to lube the lug nuts.In my opinion, almost nobody does that.There are a million and one bolts and nuts and other kinds of fasteners holding those buckets of bolts (cars) together.Why lube the lug nuts? cuhulin >I just don't see how it makes any sense at all to lube the lug nuts.In > my opinion, almost nobody does that.There are a million and one bolts > and nuts and other kinds of fasteners holding those buckets of bolts > (cars) together.Why lube the lug nuts? It is helpful if you live in a place where salt is used on the roads, and where corrosion is particularly rough. Lug nuts can freeze on the studs. You can twist off the studs trying to remove the nuts. But I guess that is not an issue where you are from. A little antiseize or grease can help a lot. But you have to consider that you MUST reduce the torque if you are going to do this... Does that explain it? >> I just don't see how it makes any sense at all to lube the lug nuts.In >> my opinion, almost nobody does that.There are a million and one bolts [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Does that explain it? yeah, it's not like you're lubing the lugs in particular, you lube *every* nut and bolt you take off the car, just in case you ever have to loosen it again. nate Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel > I just don't see how it makes any sense at all to lube the lug nuts.In > my opinion, almost nobody does that.There are a million and one bolts > and nuts and other kinds of fasteners holding those buckets of bolts > (cars) together.Why lube the lug nuts? Let me guess - you don't live where they dump salt on the roads. -jim > cuhulin ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > Some years ago, I searched the internet and found the concensus that to use > greased > threads, you need to drop the torque figures by about 20-25 percent. I have > no idea > whether this is valid or not. With stuff like Nevr-Seize, the applied torque needs to drop to something like 45% of the dry torque. It's pretty slippery stuff. The manufacturer gives the torque for "clean, dry threads." The problem is that a car that isn't new doesn't have clean threads, nor are the nut and wheel bolt cones nice and smooth anymore. Rust and the normal bit of tearing of mating surfaces in the threads and cones will result in less tension in the stud for the clean-dry torque. The cad plating also wears or corrodes away. On my ancient IHC pickup I use a tiny bit of Nevr-Seize on the stud threads, since they're getting rougher as the years go by. Dry threads that are rough will soon enough weld themselves solid and you'll strip everything or break the stud trying to get the nut off. Dan >> Some years ago, I searched the internet and found the concensus that to >> use [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Dan I think you and I are more or less on the same page. I would prefer to use a little Never Seize than to have nuts stuck to studs. I derate. I have NEVER had a problem. A lot of this is pedantic BS. There is NO reason not to use Never Seize or similar so long as you derate the torque. Now, how much should you derate?? Either buy yourself a bolt elongation gauge, or derate 25% plus/minus, or just stick with your torque ratings and give your rusty threads a bolt enema. Reasonable people do what works. And sometimes this requires some R&D. > A garage mech told me today never to grease > the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes > it easier for them to back off i.e. become loose. > Opinions? Grease on lug nuts is a great idea, because it would help prevent them from rusting on. HOWEVER, every car and manual I've ever seen always says or implies that's a clean dry nut and stud. For example, my TA requires 100 foot-pounds. If you grease it up, it's probably 70 or so, so if you apply 100, you're doing the equivalent of 130 or so dry... and you're gonna strip it or snap the stud. And so, I always* do lug nuts dry. *except for my Subaru, which had grease on them went I went to rotate the tires yesterday. At this point, I don't know if that's normal for a Subaru to have that - it's a used car, so they could be factory greased, they could be home owner greased. They're the same size as my TA yet only call for 58-72 foot-pounds, so I went with 60 and left the grease on. Ray I forgot to mention there are certain fancy cars that call for certain pounds of torque when tightnening the lug nuts.I always use my 4 way lug wrench and tighten them to what I think is sufficient, I have never had any problem getting them off if I tighten them, none of them has ever worked loose either.I carry a 4 foot long cheater pipe in my van because some of those tire shops sometimes get them too tight.Perhaps certain cars do call for lubeing the lug nuts, I don't know. I don't live near a beach (salt) and in the Wintertime for icey roads, bridges, and overpasses, they use sand.In salty areas, durn near everything under those cars gets messed up from the salt.Many years ago, I took an old junk yard bicycle with me in my van when I was on vacation in Daytona Beach.I rode that bicycle around on the beach, it got soaking wet all over from the salt water.I haden't thought to wash the salty water off of the bicycle at one of those wash off places on the beach.The next day, that bicycle was just like somebody had welded up every piece of that bicycle. cuhulin >A garage mech told me today never to grease >the threads of wheell lug nuts, because it makes >it easier for them to back off i.e. become loose. >Opinions? I've got LOADS of opinions...and they're all free. some of 'em are worth the price too:) Up here in Salt Country (NE Ohio), we lightly coat the backface of aluminum wheels with antisieze as well as a dab on the wheel studs. Otherwise, they tend not to come off without major swearing, pounding and possible damage. Too much and it will squeeze out and make a mess on your nice wheels...been dere, still cleaning it off... NEVER NEVER NEVER "grease" them with anything! always use good quality copper (or lead) antisieze. Otherwise you might be going down the road late one night on the B57 in Germany and have your rear end drop and your wheel whiz past you....yes, that DID happen to me when I was much younger... NO GREASE! hope I was clear :) --Don Don Byrer KJ5KB Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy Glider & CFI wannabe kj5kb-at-hotmail.com "I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..." "Watch out for those doves...<smack-smack-smack-smack...>" "Don Byrer" <kj5kb@hotmail.com> wrote in message > NEVER NEVER NEVER "grease" them with anything! always use good > quality copper (or lead) antisieze. Otherwise you might be going [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > --Don Antiseize compounds have the effect of lowering friction as well. I have only seen a lugnut loosen once in my life, and it was because I had not tightened that wheel....Yep, I was late for a date, and did a poor job. That was never repeated. Although I value your experience, I do not subscribe to the story that grease will allow a properly tightened lugnut to loosen. |
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