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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / May 2008Engine oil and Sludge
My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the miles are from short trips. I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the cover and on top of the head. There wasn't just a thin film built up but thick almost like tar. I always kept the oil changed every 3,000 mile or 3 months and used a good grade oil and filter. I was using Castrol GTX and switched to synthetic oil about a year ago. My question is because of the short trips and not letting the engine get up to operating temp, would this sludge build up happen no matter what brand of oil I use, or am I using crappy oil? Thanks for any opinions on this. Dennis B. > My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it > has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > oil and filter. I was using Castrol GTX and switched to synthetic oil > about a year ago. This is an interesting post. Some of the kissups who swear that you cannot have less than stellar performance from synthetics should comment. > My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it > has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Dennis B. Could be an engine that's prone to sludging (I'm no Jeep expert, but not really heard of that.) Could be crappy oil. Could be short driving. Could be all of the above. I once helped a friend do the valve covers on a Tempo (this was 10+ years ago) and the insides of the valve covers and top of the head had what looked like chunks of bark in there it was so bad. The wife's Beretta is 18 years old and the inside of the valve cover is probably still clean enough to eat off of. My 86 Jimmy's valve covers in 2005 were amazingly clean too. Same engine family. I know this doesn't answer anything. Just my observations. I use Pennzoil oil. (And the ONE time I used Mobil 1, I experienced timing chain failure. Go figure) Ray > Could be crappy oil. > Ray Maybe the OP will tell us which synthetic he is using. Despite my snide remark about synthetics, I would not expect this to happen, no matter if he used synthetic or a good grade fossil oil, especially in light of his regular and short change intervals . Something else must be going on here. >My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it >has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Dennis B. Short trips and hardly ever reaching full operating temperature will cause that and other problems. Oil viscosity can also have some effect. In this kind of situation, I would: 1. Shorten the oil change interval to 2000 miles. 2. Operate the vehicle at highway speed for an hour or so, (all in one trip), at least once a week. I'm afraid I don't know any effective way of cleaning out the buildup that's already there, short of a teardown. > My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it > has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the > miles are from short trips. Something is wrong with your calculations. If she drives to work every day for 7-8 years that only works out to 6000 miles at the most. > I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve > cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the cover and > on top of the head. I like the casual mention of "I installed new valve lifters this weekend" as if this is a normal maintenance procedure. > There wasn't just a thin film built up but thick almost like tar. I always > kept the oil changed every 3,000 mile or 3 months and used a good grade oil > and filter. I was using Castrol GTX and switched to synthetic oil about a > year ago. Take a good look at the PCV circuit. That is where the sludge may have first developed and restricted PCV flow would lead to more sludge. > My question is because of the short trips and not letting the engine get up > to operating temp, would this sludge build up happen no matter what brand of > oil I use, or am I using crappy oil? Thanks for any opinions on this. Extremely short trips are classified as "severe duty" by car manufacturers and call for more frequent oil changes. More expensive brands of oil aren't really engineered to be better at addressing that type of driving. -jim > Dennis B. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >> My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and >> it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Something is wrong with your calculations. If she drives to work every day > for 7-8 years that only works out to 6000 miles at the most. We drive the jeep other places too, store, gas station, Tennesse a couple of times, etc. >> I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve >> cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the cover [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I like the casual mention of "I installed new valve lifters this weekend" > as if this is a normal maintenance procedure. The lifters were noisy so I changed them and it wasn't easy. What's your point??? >> There wasn't just a thin film built up but thick almost like tar. I >> always [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Newsgroups > ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >>>My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and >>>it [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The lifters were noisy so I changed them and it wasn't easy. What's > your point??? Typically lifters don't require replacement during the normal service life of an engine. nate  Signaturereplace "roosters" with "cox" to reply. http://members.cox.net/njnagel >>> I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve >>> cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the cover [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The lifters were noisy so I changed them and it wasn't easy. What's > your point??? I think the point is that 6 years for lifters is not normal. I think my 18 year old pickup has a stuck lifter. I've never changed lifters on any of my street cars. My friend's 20 year old Celebrity went to the junkyard with 200,000 miles and a knock from the mains, but original lifters. Mike pointed out that your engine does appear to have a tendency to sludge up. Ray >>>> I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve >>>> cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Ray They also tend toward noisy lifters, some sound like diesels. I have heard of quite a few folks changing lifters in the 4.0 just for the noise with everything else being fine. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com >>>> I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve >>>> cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Ray My intension of the post was to find out if by driving short trips would cause excessive sludge build up no matter what kind of oil I used. I only mentioned the lifter problem to explain how I found out about the sludge problem. They would clatter when the engine started and quiet down. It has been doing this for a couple of years. I tried different things to get them to quiet down but nothing helped. I would not have replaced them just for this reason but the engine also had another problem. I would have to add anti-freeze about every 250 miles. I suspected a bad head gasket, this is why I tore it down. None of the tests indicated a bad gasket and the engine has never over heated. The Jeep only has 74,000 miles and has been maintained. This is really sad to have these problems. All I know is the lifters were bleeding down and it was using coolant. When I removed the head I couldn't see any evidence that it was burning coolant. The shop that I took the head to told me that they had to shave about .015 off and that there were no cracks. I felt that this was a good time to replace the lifters, they weren't that expensive. Any way the engine runs nice and quiet and as far as the coolant problem I'll have to wait and see. Thanks to all that replied. Dennis >>>>> I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve >>>>> cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Dennis The problem with asking about which oil is best is you'll get 11 different opinions if you ask 10 people. I'm a car guy, but not a mechanic, so here's my opinion... Regular cars under regular conditions - follow the manual. The wife's Beretta has been getting oil changes around every 3-4 months since 97 with Pennzoil 5w30 and either wix or AC Delco filters. Runs about as good as an 18 year old 240,000km 3.1 can. I've only killed one street motor - the 2.5 in my Fiero. Nylon timing gear + 200 miles at redline (Montana in 1996) = failure. Was running Mobil 1 synthetic at the time. I just can't use the cheap no-name stuff though, even though I know it's the same. It just feels wrong - it's like screw top wine - you know it's just as good as the stuff in a corked bottle, but it's just not "right". I've been using Pennzoil exclusively in my cars (with the exception of the Fiero incident) since 1995 and this is what's happened to them: 84 Fiero -> sold with busted transmission 90 Beretta -> still have it. Still runs fine. Motor will outlast the body. 90 Chev 1/2 Ton -> still have it. Starting to make lifter noise. Was my father-in-law's farm work truck for 15 years. Odometer broke at 200,000km back in about 2003. 01 Trans Am -> bought new, driven only in summer. Pennzoil synthetic. 100hp Nitrous kit for the strip. 86 Jimmy -> rusted into nothing, sold engine to uncle. Had 260,000km on it. Probably still running. 02 Subaru Legacy -> only had a year and a half. Ask me in another year when I do the timing belt. Ray > My intension of the post was to find out if by driving short trips would > cause excessive sludge build up no matter what kind of oil I used. I only > mentioned the lifter problem to explain how I found out about the sludge > problem. They would clatter when the engine started and quiet down. It has > been doing this for a couple of years. I tried different things to get them > to quiet down but nothing helped. Aha! Did you try oil additives to quiet the lifters? If so, THAT is almost certainly the source of your sludge. Noisy lifters on engine start are usually due to oil filters with leaky anti-drainback valves. Try a different brand of oil filter to fix that problem. >> My intension of the post was to find out if by driving short trips >> would cause excessive sludge build up no matter what kind of oil I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > anti-drainback valves. Try a different brand of oil filter to fix that > problem. Jeep engines Really Really don't like Fram oil filters! They cause a BAD lifter rattle on start up. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com > > Noisy lifters on engine start are usually due to oil filters with leaky > > anti-drainback valves. Try a different brand of oil filter to fix that > > problem. > > Jeep engines Really Really don't like Fram oil filters! They cause a > BAD lifter rattle on start up. Most filters do that, now. Cheap offshore stuff, even some of the "good" old brands. I use Pennzoil, and they still hold the oil up in the system. So far. Fram went to pieces about three years ago. I haven't tried the OEM filters, but I would expect they're still OK. Dan >>>> I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve >>>> cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I think the point is that 6 years for lifters is not normal. Depends...If he has a sludged up engine, then lifter noise is quite likely. Maybe he didnt need to change them to silence them, but that is another story. >My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it >has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the >miles are from short trips. The short trips are the source of your sludge. The "detergent" additives in oil are only fully effective above about 140 deg/f. The crankcase ventilation system is usually the first to show signs and effects of sludging accompanied by reduce efficiency which accelerates the sludging process. >I installed new valve lifters this weekend and when I removed the valve >cover I was shocked to see how much sludge was built up inside the cover and >on top of the head. Having to replace the lifter is a sign of other problems. If the lifters have been affected by the sludge, you may have reduced oil pressure/flow to the crank bearings because of the sludge in the oil passages. >There wasn't just a thin film built up but thick almost like tar. I always >kept the oil changed every 3,000 mile or 3 months and used a good grade oil >and filter. I was using Castrol GTX and switched to synthetic oil about a >year ago. Castrol is usually pretty good about controlling sludge, but... not if the engine is not operating at normal temperatures. Ditto for the synthetic. > My question is because of the short trips and not letting the engine get up >to operating temp, would this sludge build up happen no matter what brand of >oil I use, or am I using crappy oil? Thanks for any opinions on this. Absolutely! The additives in engine oils are only effective in engines at normal operating normal operating temps. The coolant will be at normal temps much sooner than the lube oil. Vehicle operating normall on trips less then 10 miles or so is considered severe service because there is not enough time for the oil to reach normal temps for the additives to work and the cold start condensation extracted from the oil thru the PVC system. This mixture of oil vapor and combustion condensate vapor is what causes the sludge formation. There is not much that can be done about sludge once it reaches a certain point. "Engine flushes" are usually a futile effort to avoid rebuilding the engine. If your engine still runs well and has good vital signs, I would put it on a diet of much more frequent oil change cycles combined with using it more frequently for drives for 25 miles or more. Note the synthetic oil will not be of much financial benefit under these conditions. Synthetic may provide easier starting if you live in a very cold climate. Make sure you use an oil of the proper grade. You should need nothing heavier than a 10w30 in that engine unless you have low oil pressure/high oil consumption and are looking for some borrowed time on it. Lugnut >Dennis B. >>My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it >>has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > >>. Your reply makes a lot of sense. Thank you, Dennis B. The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. It uses a CCV system instead of a PCV system. The CCV grommet at the rear top of the valve cover has a metered hole in it that needs cleaning. A paper clip is about the right size. The plastic tube from the grommet to the air filter or intake also plugs up with sludge. 'Usually' when this happens some oil spits into the air filter also. The plastic tube can be soaked in throttle body or carb cleaner be and reamed out with a chunk of wire or maybe blown out with air. The tube and grommet can be purchased. I had to clean our CCV system once a year because my wife also has a short drive. Too short to even have interior heat in the winter. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com > My wife drives a 2001 Jeep Wrangler six cylinder. We bought it new and it > has 74,000 miles. She works 1 1/2 miles from home, so I'd say 70% of the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Dennis B. > The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> >> Dennis B. Thanks, I'll check it out. Dennis > The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build > Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com THAT is a strong answer.. Thanks Mike. > The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. > > It uses a CCV system instead of a PCV system. By law (in the US) it is required to have a PCV system. I think on all engines this means at least 2 hoses to the closed crankase. One is connected to the intake manifold and one to the air cleaner. The one sucking fumes from the crankcase is the one that will get plugged or restricted. The other one is intended to only bring fresh air (from air cleaner) into the crankcase. If the one gets plugged then the other will blow back into the air cleaner. Even when not plugged, if the engine is under heavy load (vacuum is lowest and ring blowby the highest) it may blow back thru the air filter if the engine is worn. -jim > The CCV grommet at the > rear top of the valve cover has a metered hole in it that needs [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > > Dennis B. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- aim wrote: >> The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -jim No, the law states that the crankcase cannot be vented directly to the atmosphere. How the manufacturers do it is up to them. PCV is one way, CCV is another. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York > aim wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > atmosphere. How the manufacturers do it is up to them. PCV is one way, > CCV is another. Closed Crankcase Ventilation and Positive Crankcase Ventilation are the same thing. The point was the hose to the air cleaner is not what plugs up unless the ventilation has already failed somewhere else for other reasons. -jim ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > Closed Crankcase Ventilation and Positive Crankcase Ventilation are the same > thing. The point was the hose to the air cleaner is not what plugs up unless the > ventilation has already failed somewhere else for other reasons. No, they're not "the same thing." They perform the same function, but they're not the same. PCV uses a valve that changes its metering cross-section under changing engine load. The fact that it has a moving pintle inside it makes it somewhat self-cleaning, but as we all know PCV valves do eventually clog. CCV uses a fixed orifice which is a good bit more likely to become plugged and STAY plugged than a PCV valve with its moving pintle. Its a good enough system, but requires more careful maintenance than PCV. > > Closed Crankcase Ventilation and Positive Crankcase Ventilation are the same > > thing. The point was the hose to the air cleaner is not what plugs up unless the > > ventilation has already failed somewhere else for other reasons. > > No, they're not "the same thing." They perform the same function, but > they're not the same. OK only functionally they are the same. Regardless of what you want to call it if the suction side of the system becomes restricted on any vehicle the result is pretty much the same. The point I was making was on any system you need to look at the suction side. The other tube is only supposed to be carrying fresh air into the engine so if it gets any crud in that side then the whole system isn't working as designed. > PCV uses a valve that changes its metering cross-section under changing > engine load. I never mentioned a valve. Besides the various valves on different vehicles aren't all the same thing either. >The fact that it has a moving pintle inside it makes it > somewhat self-cleaning, but as we all know PCV valves do eventually > clog. CCV uses a fixed orifice which is a good bit more likely to become > plugged and STAY plugged than a PCV valve with its moving pintle. Its a > good enough system, but requires more careful maintenance than PCV. Yes in terms of reliability they probably aren't the same, but the tubing and sometimes the baffles in the valve cover are also part of the whole system that can also become clogged on any vehicle. ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >>> Closed Crankcase Ventilation and Positive Crankcase Ventilation are the same >>> thing. The point was the hose to the air cleaner is not what plugs up unless the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > sometimes the baffles in the valve cover are also part of the whole system that > can also become clogged on any vehicle. Can't disagree with the bottom line, but I still say that PCV systems will tolerate a whole lot more neglect than orifice type CCV. That said, after reading this thread yesterday I pulled the metering orifice out of the valve cover of my "new to me" 1999 Jeep 4.0. The previous owner did a whole lot of short-trip driving (lives 4 miles from the office) interspersed with a good many road trips. Mine was clean as a whistle, despite the fact that he never used anything but the cheapest quick-loob places as long as he had the car (117,000 miles when I picked it up). So I'm still a little baffled as to why the OP's 4.0 sludged up so quickly, and I'm still inclined to suspect some additive that he used to quiet the lifters unless he posts back that he never used any such additive. >>>> Closed Crankcase Ventilation and Positive Crankcase Ventilation are the >>>> same [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > quiet the lifters unless he posts back that he never used any such > additive. Back in March of 06 I asked the groups what to do about noisy lifters on start up. I was advised to use synthetic oil and change oil filters. I was using Castrol oil and Fram filters. The Jeep had 58,000 miles on it. So I changed to Mobile1 Synthetic and Mobile 1 filters. This did work for about 3 or 4 months and they started clattering again. I tried several different filters but nothing helped. I never used any additives and I was afraid to run transmission fluid thru the engine. I don't know if the orifice was plugged before because my son cleaned the valve cover for me. I just know that it was clean when I checked it. The one thing that I'm going to start doing is driving it to work once or twice a week. I never realized how bad it is on these engines not to drive them good and hard once and a while. Thanks all for taking the time to reply. Dennis B. >>>>> Closed Crankcase Ventilation and Positive Crankcase Ventilation are the >>>>> same [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > > Dennis B. I'd also keep a close eye on that coolant. You said it was losing coolant, and with all the other info I now have to wonder if there isn't some very, very slow path for coolant to get into the oil, increasing its moisture content and also slowly contaminating it with glycol, which gets really nasty when mixed with oil. It could be something as insidious as a casting flaw or porosity in either the head or block. That kind of thing is much more common on aluminum blocks and heads than on a solid iron engine like the 4.0, but its not impossible. Even with all the short-trip driving, it just doesn't sound like it should have gotten as bad as it did using modern oils- even "cheap" modern oils. > I'd also keep a close eye on that coolant. You said it was losing > coolant, and with all the other info I now have to wonder if there isn't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > all the short-trip driving, it just doesn't sound like it should have > gotten as bad as it did using modern oils- even "cheap" modern oils. I would agree the missing coolant could have something to with it. But even without that it is easy to see that in the winter time trips of only 1.5 miles can result in a complete failure of the crankcase ventilating system. Ice can build up in the tubing each time you make a trip and the engine never gets warm enough to thaw so after some number of such short trips their maybe no flow at all. Of course once the weather warms up the problem disappears but at that point you could have an accumulation of sludge. -jim ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- > By law (in the US) it is required to have a PCV system. The law is that the engine cannot vent to the atmosphere. There is no restriction on how this is accomplished. > > By law (in the US) it is required to have a PCV system. > > The law is that the engine cannot vent to the atmosphere. There is no > restriction on how this is accomplished. But, there are some very obvious restrictions on how this can be accomplished. For instance, you can't just seal up the crankcase and expect that to work. If you can't figure out why that won't work look at what happened to the OP. The phrase "positive crankcase ventilation" came from the California emission standards back in the early 60's. Later the Feds adopted it. The jeep has the same system they all have. The plumbing is essentially the same on all, the only difference is that they all have different designs for controlling the flow into the engine's intake. -jim ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >> > By law (in the US) it is required to have a PCV system. >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Newsgroups > ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube assembly was pluged and it wasn't. Not sure what this means but there was a lot of sludge build up. Thinking about switching from Castrol to Pennzoil because of the other posts. Thanks Again, Dennis "Dennis" <dennis@comcast.net> wrote in message > After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube > assembly was pluged and it wasn't. Not sure what this means but there was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Thanks Again, > Dennis I think you are "chasing rabbits".. Castrol is a good oil. I went away from Pennzoil some years ago (and Quaker State, when Pennzoil bought them) because this brand tended to varnish my engines. I really dont think that the brand or quality of oil is your problem.. Could be wrong, have been before, but dont think so. > "Dennis" <dennis@comcast.net> wrote in message >> After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Could be wrong, > have been before, but dont think so. I don't think so either. I agree with Mikes post, it's from the short in town driving trips plus the style of engine. I have always used Castrol in my cars and never saw anything like this. I have always worked out of town and the driving range has been around 60 miles round trip. I had a 1983 Buick Century with the V-6 3.0 When I had to replace a head gasket the inside of the engine was really clean. Thanks again for all of your replies, Dennis >> "Dennis" <dennis@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Thanks again for all of your replies, > Dennis Maybe you should do what my wife and I did for a while. Trade off vehicles every other week or so. That way the longer trip will help burn off the crud that is causing the oil to become sludge. Plus it gives you a chance to discover any problems before they get to bad. SignatureSteve W. I had a 1983 Buick Century with the V-6 3.0 When > I had to replace a head gasket the inside of the engine was > really clean. Well, at least replacing a head gasket on a 4.0 is something you'll likely NEVER have to do. One of the last car engines made with an iron head and iron block... the way God intended :-) (Yes, I own a 4.0.... for a grand total of 2 weeks now. Been wanting one for years, and I love it. Gets a whole lot better gas mileage than my 440 ;-) > "Dennis" <dennis@comcast.net> wrote in message >> After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Could be wrong, > have been before, but dont think so. I'd also worry that if you have a sludged up engine, that switching brands might make it worse. For the OP's benefit, what are his options for desludging short of a total overhaul? Ray >> "Dennis" <dennis@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ray When I am de-sludging, I use an engine flush or more often a pint of transmission fluid in the oil. I then change the filter at the 'half way' point to the next short interval (less than 1000 miles) oil change. After a couple changes, things usually clean out. In one case, I used 4 quarts of mineral spirits in the engine, ran it for a couple minutes, let it soak for a few hours, then ran it again and let it soak with one more run then a drain. This was followed by two oil changes at 100 mile intervals. It worked, that engine came back to life. It 'was' a last ditch effort on a high mileage beast though, not like the OP's relatively 'new' engine. The OP's other issue is the driving will be just adding more sludge as he is trying to clean out the old stuff.... Swapping vehicles once a week like someone mentioned so it gets a highway run to heat up sure won't hurt. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:483c1647$0$23296 > When I am de-sludging, I use an engine flush or more often a pint of > transmission fluid in the oil. I then change the filter at the 'half way' [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Mike I ran afoul (pun intended) of Quaker State Oil a couple of years ago and got a bit of varnish in the engine. It was obvious on the dipstick, valve covers, in the lifter area. I resorted to the old Mystery Marvel Oil, about 8 ounces,and ran the car a couple of hundred miles before oil change. It seemed to clean up quite well, and I changed brands of oil. No more problems. My situation was varnish, however, not sludge. I handle sludge in a slightly different way, similar to what you do. >> "Dennis" <dennis@comcast.net> wrote in message >>> After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Ray He already had the cylinder head and valve cover off so they should have been cleaned before they were reinstalled. Next step would be to run some engine flush through the engine and then remove the oil pan to clean out any remaining sludge and check to make sure the oil pickup screen is not blocked. Next change the oil and filter and use a good quality oil. Monitor the color of the oil and when it starts to get dirty ( darker color) change the oil and filter again, this may only take 500-1000 miles. Reapeat the short oil changes until the oil will stay clean for 2000 miles. Make sure the CCV system is working properly and all lines are open. If the vehicle will still be used mainly for short trip driving it should be taken out and driven at highway speed once a week to boil off any moisture from condensation. If the vehicle is only driven for short trips like it was before, the sludge problem will happen again. The main cause of the sludge is the moisture in the oil. More frequent oil changes may help but the vehicle needs to be driven long enough to get the oil hot so that condensation has a chance to be boiled off and removed by the CCV system. >>>> By law (in the US) it is required to have a PCV system. >>> The law is that the engine cannot vent to the atmosphere. There is no [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Thanks Again, > Dennis That just basically means there really is no help for your problem. I would run an engine flush and change the filter twice for each of the next two oil changes and do them 'short' to clean it out. Then just do short changes or take it for a highway burn or better even a 4x4 'low' range off road cruise once a week to heat it up good and burn off the water. The water from condensation causes the sludge. That works. Our Cherokee really liked the cruise on the 4x4 trails, it worked out all the creaks. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com >>>>> By law (in the US) it is required to have a PCV system. >>>> The law is that the engine cannot vent to the atmosphere. There is no [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > 'New' frame in the works for '08. Some Canadian Bush Trip and Build > Photos: http://mikeromainjeeptrips.shutterfly.com Thanks Mike, I will take your advice. We love the Jeep and want to keep it for a long time, and I don't want to remove the head again any time soon. By the way the most difficult part was disconnecting the cats from the exhaust manifolds. The bolts are held on with U-Nuts. There are four of them. I couldn't get a good bite on them because the pre - cats are in the way. The more I was able to loosen them the tighter they got. It was like they automatically cross threaded. I ended up cutting them off with a torch. Do you know of an eaiser way? Thanks, Dennis > After reading the post from Mike I checked to see if that rear tube assembly > was pluged and it wasn't. Not sure what this means but there was a lot of > sludge build up. If there was a lot of sludge build up in the valve covers you it would be very likely it was also building up inside that tubing since that is exposed to all the vapors produced inside the engine. It may not be plugged but it is probably restricted. -jim >Thinking about switching from Castrol to Pennzoil because > of the other posts. > > Thanks Again, > Dennis ----== Posted via Pronews.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- >> > By law (in the US) it is required to have a PCV system. >> >> The law is that the engine cannot vent to the atmosphere. There is no >> restriction on how this is accomplished. > > But, there are some very obvious restrictions on how this can be accomplished. Design constraints such that a part or system designs itself was not what I was responding to. I was responding to a matter of law. >> The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -jim Well when the 'CCV' system on the "USA" made Jeep engine blocks up, it also puts a lot of oil into the intake hose from the air filter, enough to fail emissions with high HC's, so it also needs a clean usually. Jeep did away with the PCV system on their 6's when they did away with carburetors back in the 90's by the way. They use a CCV system. Mike >> The CCV grommet at the >> rear top of the valve cover has a metered hole in it that needs [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > http://www.pronews.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups > ---= - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- "Mike Romain" <romainm@sympatico.ca> wrote in message news:483af260$0$28618 > Well when the 'CCV' system on the "USA" made Jeep engine blocks up, it > also puts a lot of oil into the intake hose from the air filter, enough to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Mike This same factor was one of the proposed causes for the Toyota engine failures when the oil sludged or gelled. Toyota said that failure to change oil frequently enough was a factor in every case, BUT there was also a situation with changes to the PCV system which were also implicated. In all likelihood, it was a little of both. The OP's problem would have to be something precipitated by more than just short drives, type of oil, etc, since the OP changed oil religiously. I think you have hit the nail on the head. > The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > > Dennis B. Just-a-wondering, for a short-trip engine would any benefit arise from closing up the cranckcase and plumbing it to manifold vacuum? Yes, there's a bunch of seal-related stuff you need to do, but just looking at it theoretically. Dave >> The 4.0 is known for sludge buildup on short trips. >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Dave The CCV system 'is' plumbed into the intake manifold and has a constant 'metered' suction. In order for 'suction' to take place, there has to be an 'intake' matching the draw. Running a vacuum wouldn't draw the humid air out, it needs flow. Now maybe if something could be rigged up to increase the flow across the head without messing up the fuel/air mix..... Mike > There wasn't just a thin film built up but thick almost like tar. I always > kept the oil changed every 3,000 mile or 3 months and used a good grade oil > and filter. I was using Castrol GTX and switched to synthetic oil about a > year ago. I've heard that "AutoRX" is good at removing gunk like this. Never tried it myself as it's too expensive to ship up here to Canada. > My question is because of the short trips and not letting the engine get up > to operating temp, would this sludge build up happen no matter what brand of > oil I use, or am I using crappy oil? Thanks for any opinions on this. Short trips are going to leave moisture in the oil for sure. Sythetics might help, but you really need to take it out for a run once in a while. SignatureFight Usenet Spam!!! - http://improve-usenet.org:80/ Want a great newsgroup reader that will filter out the flood of newgroup spam? Try MesNews - http://www.mesnews.net/gb/ If you want your posts to be seen, DON'T USE GOOGLE GROUPS! "Calab" <myspam@csd.ca> wrote in message news:831%j.172075 > Short trips are going to leave moisture in the oil for sure. Sythetics > might help, but you really need to take it out for a run once in a > while. Apparently synthetics did not help in this case. > "Calab" <myspam@csd.ca> wrote in message news:831%j.172075 >> Short trips are going to leave moisture in the oil for sure. Sythetics >> might help, but you really need to take it out for a run once in a >> while. > > Apparently synthetics did not help in this case. the sludge was already there... synthetic oil didn't likely add to the mess and probably cleaned it some of it out. >> "Calab" <myspam@csd.ca> wrote in message news:831%j.172075 >>> Short trips are going to leave moisture in the oil for sure. Sythetics [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the sludge was already there... synthetic oil didn't likely add to the > mess and probably cleaned it some of it out. He had changed to synthetics a year ago, and changed every three thousand miles. If the dino oil had been involved in the original sludge, which is not likely unless the crankcase ventilation system were the culprit in the first place, then the synthetic didnt do much of a job of dispersing the sludge and keeping it from recurring. I dont think the oil is the problem. >>> "Calab" <myspam@csd.ca> wrote in message news:831%j.172075 >>>> Short trips are going to leave moisture in the oil for sure. Sythetics [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > synthetic didnt > do much of a job of dispersing the sludge and keeping it from recurring. Synthetic isn't a magic cleaner that removes the sludge that's already there. It can do some, but expecting it to clean out an engine is a bit much. >Synthetic isn't a magic cleaner that removes the sludge that's already >there. It can do some, but expecting it to clean out an engine is a bit >much. There are some synthetic oils that have a lot of detergents in them and also act as pretty good solvents. These oils _will_ clean out gunk. There are a lot more that don't. Whether the base is synthetic or not does not really have very much to do with how effective at removing varnish an oil is. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message news:g1jpo0$fu8 > There are some synthetic oils that have a lot of detergents in them and > also [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > have very much to do with how effective at removing varnish an oil is. > --scott I can accept that not all synthetics have the glowing characteristics that are sometimes attributed to them, across the board. I would not really expect many of them to be very good solvents. That isn't their role, nor is it always desirable. The polyesters are probably better at this than are the polyolefins. I would still expect almost any sort of oil (with frequent changes) to have had a positive effect on the sludging that the OP has detected, but this would not seem to be the case....or, the sludge is forming so quickly that this effect is not noticeable. >"Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message news:g1jpo0$fu8 >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >at this >than are the polyolefins. Yes, and for a motor oil it often is not desirable, because it winds up causing issues with seals, and it also can get a lot of old varnish into solution and plug your filter up too. For some applications it's a big deal... I am amazed at the ability of the Royal Purple Synfilm to clean old crusty gunk out of sleeve bearings on small motors, for instance. >I would still expect almost any sort of oil (with frequent changes) to have >had >a positive effect on the sludging that the OP has detected, but this would >not >seem to be the case....or, the sludge is forming so quickly that this effect >is not noticeable. Could be. Or it could be that the sludge is so extensive and so sticky that it's just hard to remove. Used to be on those old Valiants you'd pull the valve covers every year and scrape gunk out with a putty knife.... --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > Could be. Or it could be that the sludge is so extensive and so sticky that > it's just hard to remove. Used to be on those old Valiants you'd pull the > valve covers every year and scrape gunk out with a putty knife.... > --scott Ruh??? I've had a whole lot of old Mopars (a Valiant included) and never had a sludge issue until Dad's 92 5.2, which developed the issue because it had that early-Magnum intake problem where the exhaust crossover passage leaks into the lifter valley. "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message news:g1k9ps$7r3 > Could be. Or it could be that the sludge is so extensive and so sticky > that > it's just hard to remove. Used to be on those old Valiants you'd pull the > valve covers every year and scrape gunk out with a putty knife.... > --scott You arent talking about those old slant six engines, are you? I have seen them that looked like the La Brea tar pits, BUT they may have had 300,000 miles on them. >> Synthetic isn't a magic cleaner that removes the sludge that's already >> there. It can do some, but expecting it to clean out an engine is a bit [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have very much to do with how effective at removing varnish an oil is. > --scott True. From the reading I've done over the last couple of years, it appears that there are a lot of synthetics on the market now that are decidedly inferior to the better "dino juice" oils. Furthermore, the good dino juices are now turning in longevity numbers (total base number, viscosity increase, and wear metal content) that rival the good synthetics. |
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