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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2009

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Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey

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jolly - 18 Jul 2009 13:25 GMT
Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey
http://www.uretima.info/2009/07/sahim-hydrogen-car-from-turkey.html
Don Stauffer - 19 Jul 2009 14:29 GMT
> Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey
> http://www.uretima.info/2009/07/sahim-hydrogen-car-from-turkey.html

And where do you get hydrogen to put in it?
jim - 19 Jul 2009 15:53 GMT
> > Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey
> > http://www.uretima.info/2009/07/sahim-hydrogen-car-from-turkey.html
>
> And where do you get hydrogen to put in it?

Actually the problem may well be what do you do with hydrogen once it is
produced.

It is not very difficult to produce Hydrogen from biomass. The process
is now the subject of  research due to various incentives to reduce GHG
emissions to the atmosphere.  Producing hydrogen from biomass can be
carbon negative energy source.  That is the net effect of the process is
to reduce atmospheric carbon.
    The process essentially separates the carbon from hydrogen and uses the
hydrogen for energy and puts the carbon back into the soil. The carbon
supplement to the soil is in a form that can significantly increase the
amount of biomass the soil is capable of producing thus making the
process self sustaining. That means the process is an energy source and
also helps reverse the long standing problem that conventional farming,
grazing and timber harvesting creates, which is depletion of carbon from
the soil. Depletion of soil carbon reduces the amount of plant growth
which the soil can support and reducing the amount of plant growth
reduces the amount of CO2 removed from the atmosphere.

-jim
Don Stauffer - 20 Jul 2009 14:30 GMT
Interesting.  Does the process take carbon out of methane emission, or
is it at a more fundamental biochemical level?

>>> Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey
>>> http://www.uretima.info/2009/07/sahim-hydrogen-car-from-turkey.html
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> -jim
jim - 20 Jul 2009 21:43 GMT
> Interesting.  Does the process take carbon out of methane emission, or
> is it at a more fundamental biochemical level?

There are several processes and lots of research. Pyrolosis is an ancient
process that produces essentially pure carbon (charcoal) and CO and H2 from crop
residue. There are ways to separate the CO and H2, so that the carbon monoxide
is used as  the energy source for the process itself and the hydrogen is the
fuel output.
    The carbon component can be put back in to the soil as a soil amendment. This
is said to have huge advantages over  composting or plowing under that same crop
residue. Research has shown that adding carbon in the form of charcoal to the
soil lasts much longer in the soil (centuries compared to months) so over time
it accumulates. Carbon in that form improves soil fertility by holding K-N-P and
water better. That means the farm needs  less water, fertilizer and energy to
produce the same yield. And carbon in that form has been shown to improve soil
microbial action that benefit plant growth. And for those worried about green
house gasses it significantly reduces the amount of CO2, methane and NO2
emissions that come from farm soil as compared to more traditional methods of
adding back some of the organic matter.
    Think about this: You mow your lawn for decades every week and very little of
that carbon that was removed from the atmosphere and ends up in grass clippings
ends up as carbon in the soil. It is a very inefficient process and it reaches
an equilibrium where the soil is out gassing as much carbon as it takes in.
Most of the carbon decomposes and becomes CO2 or methane and returns back to the
atmosphere. For farm soils that are tilled the amount of carbon retained in the
soil is even less than for soil that is not tilled.

    Both India and China are very serious about this. It has a lot of potential for
small scale agricultural development - for producing rural energy self
sufficiency and for improving worn out soils.

-jim

> >>> Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey
> >>> http://www.uretima.info/2009/07/sahim-hydrogen-car-from-turkey.html
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> >
> > -jim
M.A. Stewart - 21 Jul 2009 00:52 GMT
>> Interesting.  Does the process take carbon out of methane emission, or
>> is it at a more fundamental biochemical level?
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> an equilibrium where the soil is out gassing as much carbon as it takes in.
> Most of the carbon decomposes and becomes CO2 or methane and returns back to the

There it is!!.... the essence (heh heh... multi pun intended!) of the
bullshit! Carbon (C).... the 'code word' (without the symbol!!!) of the
obfuscating demonizers!

Carbon (C) doesn't DE-compose... That's a.s-BACKWARDS! It RE-composes into
molecular COMPOUNDS which are not called carbon (C). Carbon (C) is an
element... its an atom... it's a SOLID (at ambient temps and pressures)...
#6 on the Periodic Table of Elements. Atoms (for all practical purposes)
cannot be destroyed nor created... it's called "The Law Of Conservation re
MATTER".

I'm still waiting for that politician to get back to me when I asked him
the question,

"Which allotrope of carbon (C) is it that you want to tax me on, and is it
amorphous?" Do you know the answer (he was talking about "Carbon Taxing"
Canadians to "save the world")?

--
"how ironic... a folk singer sings about having the most extravagant
carbon footprint ever... Paul Simon sings

'People say I'm crazy
I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes'"

--

Professor of the pseudo science of Political Science (who knows the waiter
is a Chem. student) in restaurant;

"Hey waiter, get me a glass of hydrogen."

Part-time waiter who's a struggling Chem. student;

"What???"

Prof.;

"you know H2O!"

Waiter;

"Molecular hydrogen (H2) is a gas, not liquid di-hydrogen monoxide (H2O)...
dickhead"

> atmosphere. For farm soils that are tilled the amount of carbon retained in the
> soil is even less than for soil that is not tilled.
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>> >
>> > -jim
jim - 21 Jul 2009 02:45 GMT
> >> Interesting.  Does the process take carbon out of methane emission, or
> >> is it at a more fundamental biochemical level?
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Carbon (C) doesn't DE-compose... That's a.s-BACKWARDS! It RE-composes into
> molecular COMPOUNDS which are not called carbon (C).

Here is a corrected version for the reading impaired:

    "Most of the plant's carbon decomposes and becomes CO2 or methane and returns
back to the atmosphere."

    The point was that plants remove a vast amount of carbon from the atmosphere
but most of it ends up back in the atmosphere when the plants die.

   

I snipped the rest of the BS which had nothing to do with anything as far as
could tell.

-jim
M.A. Stewart - 22 Jul 2009 02:25 GMT
>> >> Interesting.  Does the process take carbon out of methane emission, or
>> >> is it at a more fundamental biochemical level?
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>     "Most of the plant's carbon decomposes and becomes CO2 or methane and returns
> back to the atmosphere."

C A R B O N   ( C )   D O E S    N O T   D E C O M P O S E   .      The
only way to decompose carbon (C) is to gun it through a multi billion
dollar particle accelerator, and slam it into something at the speed of
light. The molecular compound which has carbon (C) atom(s) bonded to the
other atoms is what   D E C O M P O S E S.

Name the compounds (include the chemical symbols)?

>     The point was that plants remove a vast amount of carbon from the atmosphere
> but most of it ends up back in the atmosphere when the plants die.

Vast amounts of carbon (C)???

Below is the constituency of air (*dry air*). Where is the 'vast' amounts?
I see no carbon (C)... and why would I... carbon (C) is a solid. However I
do see a   C A R B O N   C O M P O U N D   which happens to be a
colourless, odourless gas, and it's quantity amounts to 'dick-all'.
_________________________

78.0800% nitrogen
20.9500% oxygen
0.9300% argon
0.0300% carbon dioxide
0.0018% neon
0.0005% helium
0.0001% krypton
0.00005% hydrogen
0.000008% xenon
remaining trace compounds (less than 0.0002% each)

(Water vapour in air ranges from about 0.1% to 1.6%, which means all the
above numbers would be slightly lower depending on humidity)
_____________________________________

And you thought krypton was something invented by the writers of the Superman
Comic books.

>    
>
> I snipped the rest of the BS which had nothing to do with anything as far as
> could tell.

That's because it wasn't BS, and the 'funny' went over your head.

Do you know what a 'Periodic Table' is? Hint... it has nothing to
do with menstrual cycles.

> -jim
jim - 22 Jul 2009 03:22 GMT
> C A R B O N   ( C )   D O E S    N O T   D E C O M P O S E  

Plants decompose.

>  which happens to be a
> colourless, odourless gas, and it's quantity amounts to 'dick-all'.

'dick-all' = 750,000,000,000 tons
M.A. Stewart - 23 Jul 2009 19:06 GMT
jim (".sjedgingN0sp"@m@mwt.net) did _EDIT_ out of context:
> "M.A. Stewart" _DID NOT_ write what is out of context:
>
>> C A R B O N   ( C )   D O E S    N O T   D E C O M P O S E  
>
> Plants decompose.

Correct.

I remain:

C A R B O N   ( C )   D O E S    N O T   D E C O M P O S E   .      The
only way to decompose carbon (C) is to gun it through a multi billion
dollar particle accelerator, and slam it into something at the speed of
light. The molecular compound which  has carbon (C) atom(s) bonded to the
other atoms is what   D E C O M P O S E S.

Name the compounds (include the chemical symbols)?

I'm waiting for the answer.
               

>>  which happens to be a
>> colourless, odourless gas, and it's quantity amounts to 'dick-all'.

(context follows):

Vast amounts of carbon (C)???

Below is the constituency of air (*dry air*). Where is the 'vast' amounts?
I see no carbon (C)... and why would I... carbon (C) is a solid. However I
do see a   C A R B O N    C O M P O U N D  which happens to be a
colourless, odourless gas, and it's quantity amounts to 'dick-all'.
_________________________

78.0800% nitrogen
20.9500% oxygen
0.9300% argon
0.0300% carbon dioxide
0.0018% neon
0.0005% helium
0.0001% krypton
0.00005% hydrogen
0.000008% xenon
remaining trace compounds (less than 0.0002%)

(Water vapour in air ranges from about 0.1% to 1.6%, which means all the
above numbers would be slightly lower depending on humidity)
_____________________________________

                 

> 'dick-all' = 750,000,000,000 tons

'tons' relative to what? Does that include the mass of the oxygen (O)
atoms or not? What was the temperature and humidity? Science uses tonnes
not 'tons'.
   
Get a Periodic Table (for atomic weights, among many other things).

Start here--> 78.08(%) (N2, N) divided by 0.0300(%) (CO2) equals
2602.67   T I M E S

roughly

2600 X 750 Billion = 1.95  Q U A D R I L L I O N   (for reference, a
'quad' is 1000 times a 'trillion', or in money, a quad of money as a U.S.A.
national debt (if it was a trillion dollars) would be the debt of a  
T H O U S A N D   U. S. A. 's.

Use the 'atomic weights' to find the  T O N N E S.

Answer the questions. Don't dick-around with editing.
jim - 23 Jul 2009 21:43 GMT
> I'm waiting for the answer.

Yes or maybe No depending on whatever the question was.

> > 'dick-all' = 750,000,000,000 tons
>
> 'tons' relative to what?

relative to my great aunt or maybe it was my uncle. Why do you ask these
questions? These aren't classified secrets you can look any of this up
if you care.

> Does that include the mass of the oxygen (O)

No it is the mass of the carbon (like as if it matters). It is called
the "carbon cycle". Look it up if you are at all interested.

-jim
M.A. Stewart - 23 Jul 2009 23:47 GMT
jim ("sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net) continues dick-around-editing:

>> I'm waiting for the answer.
>
> Yes or maybe No depending on whatever the question was.

Go back and re-read what you edited out.

>> > 'dick-all' = 750,000,000,000 tons
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> questions? These aren't classified secrets you can look any of this up
> if you care.

Don't have to. What's stopping you, and Al Gore et al.?

>> Does that include the mass of the oxygen (O)
>
> No it is the mass of the carbon (like as if it matters).

Ya... it matters...  it means your smaller non-metric tonnage is 27.291%
of 'dick-all' or the square root of 'dick-all' times 1.811 (relative to the
total constituency of dry air).

_________________________

78.0800% nitrogen
20.9500% oxygen
0.9300% argon
0.0300% carbon dioxide
0.0018% neon
0.0005% helium
0.0001% krypton
0.00005% hydrogen
0.000008% xenon
remaining trace compounds (less than 0.0002%)

(Water vapour in air ranges from about 0.1% to 1.6%, which means all the
above numbers would be slightly lower depending on humidity)
_____________________________________

> It is called
> the "carbon cycle". Look it up if you are at all interested.

List all the carbon (C) allotropes in the "carbon cycle". I promise I
won't edit them out.

> -jim
jim - 24 Jul 2009 01:09 GMT
    The topic  was producing hydrogen using a process that takes crop
residue and produces useable energy as well also enriches the soil more
effectively then just leaving the crop residue to decompose naturally.

    And you jump in with this baffling babbling buffoonery:

 "The only way to decompose carbon (C) is to gun it through a multi
billion dollar particle accelerator, and slam it into something at
the speed of light. The molecular compound which  has carbon (C)
atom(s) bonded to the other atoms is what   D E C O M P O S E S.

Name the compounds (include the chemical symbols)? "

WTF does blowing carbon apart with a multi billion dollar particle
accelerator have to do with improving soil quality or producing hydrogen
from corn stalks?

> >> > 'dick-all' = 750,000,000,000 tons
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Don't have to. What's stopping you, and Al Gore et al.?

What's Al Gore got to do with it? Your delirium is getting progressively
worse.

> >> Does that include the mass of the oxygen (O)
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> of 'dick-all' or the square root of 'dick-all' times 1.811 (relative to the
> total constituency of dry air).

All I said was -> 'dick-all' = 750,000,000,000 tons

I didn't mean for it to give you a brain hemorrhage

-jim
Kevin - 20 Jul 2009 16:05 GMT
>> > Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey
>> > http://www.uretima.info/2009/07/sahim-hydrogen-car-from-turkey.html
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> -jim

 I would like a cite that says my soil is carbon deficient and that
affects my yields. I have never heard that silly claim before.   KB

Signature

THUNDERSNAKE #9

Protect your rights or "Lose" them
The 2nd Admendment guarantees the others

jim - 20 Jul 2009 20:34 GMT
> >> > Sahim, a hydrogen car from Turkey
> >> > http://www.uretima.info/2009/07/sahim-hydrogen-car-from-turkey.html
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>   I would like a cite that says my soil is carbon deficient and that
> affects my yields. I have never heard that silly claim before.  

    Is it your belief that everything you have never heard of is by definition
silly?

    Have you ever heard of a desert. How about a man-made desert? Many of the
world's deserts are man made and the process for turning arable land into desert
is pretty simple - remove the carbon from the soil and you have a desert. There
are very few places in the world that get enough natural regular rainfall to
support any sort plant life without at least .5% carbon in the soil. The places
where the carbon is below that level are now deserts. Once plants stop growing,
the soil carbon quickly drops to close to 0%.

    Typical midwestern US soils in pre-columbia times had around 8-10% carbon and
some soils can be as high as 50% carbon. Typical US cropland today has about
2-4% carbon. That level of carbon depletion has been shown to make a huge
difference in yields. Experimental plots have demonstrated that corn yields of
up to 400 bu/acre are routinely possible on unirrigated land with soil that has
carbon content in the neighborhood of 10%. Essentially that would be like
farming on pure potting soil.
   

    It has been estimated that the total amount of carbon that has been removed by
man (mostly deforestation, farming and grazing) since the beginning of time is
of the same magnitude as the total amount of carbon man that has  burned by
fossil fuel usage.

http://www.eprida.com/invest/index.php4
http://www.geotimes.org/webcasts/article.html?id=char.html
http://www.aes.ucdavis.edu/NewsEvents/News/Impact/impact_15.pdf
Clive - 21 Jul 2009 10:37 GMT
>       Have you ever heard of a desert. How about a man-made desert? Many of the
>world's deserts are man made and the process for turning arable land into desert
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>where the carbon is below that level are now deserts. Once plants stop growing,
>the soil carbon quickly drops to close to 0%.
And here's me all the time believing that a desert was a place that had
an annual rainfall of less than 12 inches.
Signature

Clive

jim - 21 Jul 2009 13:05 GMT
> And here's me all the time believing that a desert was a place that had
> an annual rainfall of less than 12 inches.

So which came first the chicken or the egg? Look at North Africa and the
Middle East. Archeologist have shown that most of this entire region was
several thousand years ago covered with lush vegetation and there isn't
much doubt that change to its current state  was due to man. There is no
doubt that in the period of recent recorded history that man has caused
a huge expansion of these deserts. That expansion continues today.

-jim
Kevin - 21 Jul 2009 13:48 GMT
jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in news:Ho2dnf3hS-
ibMvjXnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@bright.net:

>> And here's me all the time believing that a desert was a place that had
>> an annual rainfall of less than 12 inches.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> -jim

 apparently you will swallow any dumb thing your read. carbon in the
soil is from decomposing plants brightness. organic mater IS the carbon.
so in a dessert there are no growing plants to die and decompose, the
moisture problem was first not last. the carbon persent in the soil way
back when is a conjecture as it was NOT  mesured. it was also because it
was a lush prairie with massive amounts of decaying grass. organic
content in the soil is good but not possible to increase  more than a
modrate amount with out ceasing to take anything out of it, you know
like FOOD.  KB

Signature

THUNDERSNAKE #9

Protect your rights or "Lose" them
The 2nd Admendment guarantees the others

jim - 21 Jul 2009 14:42 GMT
> jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in news:Ho2dnf3hS-
> ibMvjXnZ2dnUVZ_jidnZ2d@bright.net:
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>   apparently you will swallow any dumb thing your read.

    You are probably describing yourself. I have been experimenting with carbon
enrichment of soil for 25 years. I know what works and what doesn't.

> carbon in the
> soil is from decomposing plants brightness. organic mater IS the carbon.

Yes I already said that - allowing plant matter to fall to the ground and die
and decompose is one way to get carbon into soil but it is far from the most
efficient or effective way. With that process most of the carbon quickly cycles
back to the atmosphere only a small amount ends up in the soil and it doesn't
take long before the amount added reaches an equilibrium with the amount that is
being naturally removed.  It is particularly inefficient method in the context
of modern agricultural practices where the amount being removed is large.

> so in a dessert there are no growing plants to die and decompose, the
> moisture problem was first not last.

That is what you imagine to be true. The evidence is that many of the world's
deserts would be covered with plants if not for land use practices of man.

> the carbon persent in the soil way
> back when is a conjecture as it was NOT  mesured.

The lack of evidence is a problem, and yes the carbon which is now gone would
have been the main evidence, but there are other ways to determine what the soil
was like before it became depleted.  The current rate of loss of carbon from the
soil is also well documented.

> it was also because it
> was a lush prairie with massive amounts of decaying grass. organic
> content in the soil is good but not possible to increase  more than a
> modrate amount with out ceasing to take anything out of it, you know
> like FOOD.

Yes that would be what you imagine, but it aint true. Think about it, if that
were true then what you are in effect saying is man is doomed to eventually
starve.

-jim
Clive - 21 Jul 2009 16:20 GMT
> apparently you will swallow any dumb thing your read.
Agreed, go to southern Israel, it's desert and they grow very nice
tomatoes there.
Signature

Clive

Clive - 21 Jul 2009 16:17 GMT
>> And here's me all the time believing that a desert was a place that had
>> an annual rainfall of less than 12 inches.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>-jim
What rubbish.   Have you never heard of plate tectonics and the fact
that the Sahara wasn't were it is now?
Signature

Clive

jim - 21 Jul 2009 17:40 GMT
> >> And here's me all the time believing that a desert was a place that had
> >> an annual rainfall of less than 12 inches.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> What rubbish.   Have you never heard of plate tectonics and the fact
> that the Sahara wasn't were it is now?

Nice try.  The land mass may have moved millions of years ago. but the Sahara
desert is only a few thousand years old. And it is well documented that it
continues to grow larger every year due to land use practices.

-jim
Kevin - 21 Jul 2009 19:44 GMT
>> >> And here's me all the time believing that a desert was a place
>> >> that had an annual rainfall of less than 12 inches.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> documented that it continues to grow larger every year due to land use
> practices.

 NO it is "not" well docuented that land use practices is causing the
expansion. the earth continully has a changing climate, and a small
change completely unrelated to carbon at all can have many longish
lasting effects all over the world. the Sara expansion is just one of
the debated effects. you have no proof whatsoever that your theory is
the correct one.  croping practices themselves have changed a bunch in
the last 20 years, also genetics have vastly improved the yields. You
can not prove your theory at all because you have too many varialbs you
are not controling for. your pet theory is hogwash.  KB

> -jim

Signature

THUNDERSNAKE #9

Protect your rights or "Lose" them
The 2nd Admendment guarantees the others

jim - 21 Jul 2009 21:53 GMT
> >> >> And here's me all the time believing that a desert was a place
> >> >> that had an annual rainfall of less than 12 inches.
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> can not prove your theory at all because you have too many varialbs you
> are not controling for. your pet theory is hogwash.  

Oh yeah the Southward expansion of the Sahara due to land use practices is my
pet theory. That must be why books were written on the subject back in the 30's
before I was even born. If it is my pet theory why are people I don't even know
spending millions to reverse the process?

http://www.enn.com/ecosystems/article/37598

-jim
 
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