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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2009

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Noises, a new one to me - And A Salute to the Pros - 3800 Series II

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Vic Smith - 24 Jul 2009 14:17 GMT
A Salute to the Pros.

My kid just replaced the lower manifold gasket and upper plenum of his
'95 Bonneville - 3800 Series II.  Preventative measure due to many
catastrophic failures of those on that engine.
Car has 82k miles and is real clean.  Got it from a little old lady.
There were no problems except the tensioner was weak according to the
kid, so he put a new one on while we were doing the job.
New plenum has modified EGR stovepipe to eliminate melting and new
manifold gasket is aluminum framed versus plastic.
Job went well, and we took our time with everything.
Old gasket looked terrible with rot, and needed to be changed.
Plenum around the stovepipe looked ok, but who knows what the heat was
doing to the plastic.
I mostly helped clean parts, acted as gofer and provided what I knew
from many years of amateur wrenching on cars, including a couple
engine rebuilds.
I'm real particular about gaskets/gasket surfaces, the right dope or
no dope and torquing.  But I left him alone often, as he's real good
at wrenching, better than me.
Spent a little time on the computer getting the correct intake
manifold torque specs and tips.  The factory shop manual
has them at 89 inch pounds, when they're actually 132.
Disappointing that a shop manual is off like that.
After the engine reached operating temp a chirping started, at idle
only.  Intermittent, not steady.  Loud enough to hear 60 feet away.
Never heard anything exactly like it before, but it was close to
sounding like an accessory bearing.
But not quite.  Irritating as hell.
Couldn't pin down where it was coming from, even with a stethoscope,
but it sounded low on the engine.
I asked the kid if the new tensioner was a lot tighter than the old
one, and he said it was.  Told him to replace the water pump.
Wouldn't hurt, cost only 35 bucks for a new one,  and with 82k on
a GM pump, why not?
Besides, it wasn't the A/C compressor, alt or PS pump from our
analysis.
Back at operating temp, the chirp resumed.
Kid crawled all over the floor under the car and says he thinks the
harmonic balancer moves too much when he wiggles it.
So I look at the Bonneville forum, and sure enough, plenty of them
fail too, and sometimes cause belt chirping.  I never noticed the serp
not running true when hearing the chirping, so I didn't buy it, and
told him to take the car to a dealer mechanic.
Time to admit somebody else should take over the diagnosis.  But I
told him I would put the balancer on my card since he was tapped out.
That's what he wanted to do.
He's real worried, because he dumped maybe 1/8 cup of coolant in the
valley when he removed the manifold.  He changed the oil before
starting it again, but who knows.  I told him I've heard rod and cam
bearings go bad, and even wiped them into the crankcase, and they
don't sound like that, and get worse off idle, but now he's even
getting me worried.
Next day he calls me from work and says he put a new balancer on and
it's been 20 minutes and no chirping.  He's happy as a clam.
Everybody's happy.
Calls back a few minutes later and says the chirping has resumed.
Calls back 10 minutes later, says he's running it on the rack and has
pinpointed the noise to be coming from the rear engine or transaxle.
Now he's got my wife worried and depressed (mothers!), me worried
because I'm going to have to cash a CD to lend him money for a car,
and he's practically crying, thinking he's lost a really nice car.
But he's really calling me because he wants advice.
I told him again, this time with more force, "Take it to a dealer.
They work on these damn things all day."
Like I said, he's a good wrencher and has a bunch of those
AS whatever certs, but this is his first 3800.  He is really averse to
giving up.  Besides, he specializes in suspensions.
After work, still wearing his mech uniform he takes the car to a Chevy
dealership a couple blocks away, and since they're slow the service
manager has him pull right in.
A dealer mech is walking by, hears the chirping, and tells him to pop
the hood.  Pulls the oil filler cap off, and it sucks hard, almost
killing the engine, then it comes right back, and the chirping is
gone.
Pulls the PCV that came with the new plenum and tells the kid
he forgot to put the o-ring on it.  Happens to have the right o-ring
10 feet away and puts it on.  Five minutes total.  No charge.
The chirping was the rear main seal sucking air.  
Kid calls me on the way to the bank to get 40 bucks to slip to the
mech.  He's on cloud nine.  And a bit embarrassed.
But the whole family was happy again.
Somewhere there's a moral to that story.
Since I don't moralize, I'll leave what that is to others.

--Vic
Scott Dorsey - 24 Jul 2009 15:07 GMT
>Pulls the PCV that came with the new plenum and tells the kid
>he forgot to put the o-ring on it.  Happens to have the right o-ring
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Somewhere there's a moral to that story.
>Since I don't moralize, I'll leave what that is to others.

I can't moralize a bit 'cause I have done the exact same kind of thing
too many times.  If you haven't done it, you haven't been working long
enough...
--scott
Signature

"C'est un Nagra.  C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Paul - 24 Jul 2009 18:06 GMT
> A Salute to the Pros.

That was a great story.
Enjoy your time with your son.
Kids soon grow up and move far away.  :(
jim - 25 Jul 2009 01:39 GMT
> A dealer mech is walking by, hears the chirping, and tells him to pop
> the hood.  Pulls the oil filler cap off, and it sucks hard, almost
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 10 feet away and puts it on.  Five minutes total.  No charge.
> The chirping was the rear main seal sucking air.

Your story doesn't make sense. How is it possible to fix "the rear main
seal sucking air" with an O-ring? Not saying the guy didn't fix the
problem. What I'm saying is, it is pretty clear you didn't explain
correctly what the problem was and how it was fixed.

    Sounds like the fresh air intake was plugged somehow. Can't see how a
missing O-ring wiould have anything to do with that.

-jim
Vic Smith - 25 Jul 2009 03:08 GMT
>> A dealer mech is walking by, hears the chirping, and tells him to pop
>> the hood.  Pulls the oil filler cap off, and it sucks hard, almost
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>    Sounds like the fresh air intake was plugged somehow. Can't see how a
>missing O-ring wiould have anything to do with that.

It's just what I said.  And this dealer pro knew what the sound was as
soon as he heard it.
Here's an example from a guy who explains it better.
But I can spell better.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_would_cause_negative_pressure_or_vacuum_in_the_cr
ankcase_located_on_a_1998_Buick_LeSabre


Here's another case
http://www.torquecentral.com/archive/index.php/t-26480.html

And another
http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums/late-model-efi-techboard/451896-7-lbs-vacuum-cr
ankcase.html


Of course you would almost have to know what the problem is to find
these links.  I used "pcv o-ring crankcase vacuum 3800" and still had
to wade through a few.
The PCV valve on the 3800 is seated within the upper plenum.  Under a
turn-to-remove cap.  Didn't look close but I assume the plenum has the
porting from the crankcase, as I didn't see a hose to the PCV, which
is what I'm used to.  But I didn't pay much attention.
Where it seats in the plenum there's supposed to be an o-ring, and if
it's not there much more manifold vacuum is pulled in instead of just
the metered flow through the PCV.  

--Vic
jim - 25 Jul 2009 17:03 GMT
> Where it seats in the plenum there's supposed to be an o-ring, and if
> it's not there much more manifold vacuum is pulled in instead of just
> the metered flow through the PCV.

    The part about the pcv not sealing makes sense. But that shouldn't
cause a high vacuum in the crankcase unless the fresh air intake is also
restricted or plugged.

-jim
Vic Smith - 25 Jul 2009 18:48 GMT
>> Where it seats in the plenum there's supposed to be an o-ring, and if
>> it's not there much more manifold vacuum is pulled in instead of just
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>cause a high vacuum in the crankcase unless the fresh air intake is also
>restricted or plugged.

Fresh air intake probably is restricted by design to work in
conjunction with PCV design to pull some range of vacuum on the
crankcase.  I looked a bit for PCV design specs but didn't find any.
Shop manuals might have something, but I don't have them handy
The kid says the oil cap is air tight, and there might be a seal on
the dipstick.
I don't know of a reason for "fresh air intake" to a crankcase.
The old breather caps on valve covers were meant to relieve
crankcase pressure caused by blowby, and the newer PCV systems
add vacuum to keep that blowby out of the environment and burn it
off.
Anyway, I gave you links to the exact same problem I described.
One guy measured 7 lbs of crankcase vacuum at idle.

--Vic
Ashton Crusher - 25 Jul 2009 02:43 GMT
>A Salute to the Pros.
>
[quoted text clipped - 82 lines]
>
>--Vic

Great story.  Sometimes they HAVE heard the noises before!!!
aarcuda69062 - 25 Jul 2009 03:48 GMT
> A Salute to the Pros.
>
> My kid just replaced the lower manifold gasket and upper plenum of his
> '95 Bonneville - 3800 Series II.  

<snip>

> Pulls the PCV that came with the new plenum and tells the kid
> he forgot to put the o-ring on it.  Happens to have the right o-ring
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> --Vic

The moral is; ya shoulda asked here, you'd have gotten at least two
replies to check for a missing PCV O-ring.
Vic Smith - 25 Jul 2009 19:12 GMT
>> A Salute to the Pros.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>The moral is; ya shoulda asked here, you'd have gotten at least two
>replies to check for a missing PCV O-ring.

Maybe.  But it all happened very fast.  From problem to resolution
was less than a day.  And when you need the car fixed *now*
it's probably not a good idea to be farting around too much waiting
for answers on the net or newgroups.
This is a great place when you can leave a car laid up for a while,
or for doing post mortems that others can find for future problems.
Besides, until the dealer mech fixed it, all I had was a sound.
Tell the truth, I never connected it with the manifold work, and
might not have mentioned it until somebody squeezed it out of me
after a couple days of false paths.
As good as the kid is, I never would expect him to miss that o-ring.
But he's young, so he has to burn himself some more I guess.

--Vic
aarcuda69062 - 25 Jul 2009 21:03 GMT
> >The moral is; ya shoulda asked here, you'd have gotten at least two
> >replies to check for a missing PCV O-ring.
>
> Maybe.  

'cept for the two parts replaced that weren't needed.

> But it all happened very fast.  From problem to resolution
> was less than a day.  

Well, I check these groups more than once a day and I'm pretty sure that
Toyota MDT checks more than once a day...

At least you're not obsessing about certain failures being able to cause
crankcase vacuum like Jim is.
Toyota MDT in MO - 26 Jul 2009 04:41 GMT
> In article <bshm65lclri9n4ghovjcg1k1uu18i10...@4ax.com>,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> At least you're not obsessing about certain failures being able to cause
> crankcase vacuum like Jim is.

I wouldn't of thought of that as my first bullet, maybe the sixth
(revolver).  Heh heh...

Toyota MDT in MO
Hachiroku ハチロク - 25 Jul 2009 12:32 GMT
> A Salute to the Pros.
>
> My kid just replaced the lower manifold gasket and upper plenum of his
> '95 Bonneville - 3800 Series II.  Preventative measure due to many
> catastrophic failures of those on that engine.
> Car has 82k miles and is real clean.  Got it from a little old lady.

If it was under $1K, you just pissed me right off...
Vic Smith - 25 Jul 2009 18:56 GMT
On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 07:32:48 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS>
wrote:

>> A Salute to the Pros.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>If it was under $1K, you just pissed me right off...

He traded work for it with somebody who liked her front-ended
Chrysler mini-van more than the Bonneville.
Maybe 40 hours of work fixing the mini-van.
At his take home pay that's probably less than $800.

--Vic
Hachiroku ハチロク - 27 Jul 2009 01:55 GMT
> On Sat, 25 Jul 2009 07:32:48 -0400, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@e86.GTS>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> --Vic

Oh. Manual Labor. Isn't he the President of Mexico?

LOL! Nice trade. i am pissed...
Kruse - 25 Jul 2009 18:09 GMT
> A Salute to the Pros.
>
> My kid just replaced the lower manifold gasket and upper plenum of his
> '95 Bonneville - 3800 Series II.  Preventative measure due to many
> catastrophic failures of those on that engine.

What type of coolant did you put back in it, Dex-cool? The Universal
fits-everything-purchased-at-WalMart coolant?
(Same as Dex-Cool) Good job on your fix. I myself would have refilled
it with the Ford-spec G-05. Your intake gaskets would have thanked you.
Vic Smith - 25 Jul 2009 19:36 GMT
>> A Salute to the Pros.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>(Same as Dex-Cool) Good job on your fix. I myself would have refilled
>it with the Ford-spec G-05. Your intake gaskets would have thanked you.

Don't think this car ever saw Dex-cool.  He put green stuff in, bought
at O'Reilly's (formerly Murrays) when we were picking up the tensioner
and some other stuff.  The coolant he drained - green - didn't look
bad, but he refilled with new.

--Vic
Kruse - 25 Jul 2009 21:19 GMT
> Don't think this car ever saw Dex-cool.  He put green stuff in, bought
> at O'Reilly's (formerly Murrays) when we were picking up the tensioner
> and some other stuff.  The coolant he drained - green - didn't look
> bad, but he refilled with new.

Sorry. I was off by one year. Maybe my memory IS going.

http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/Zerex_CoolantChart.pdf
 
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