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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / July 2006Cars friendly to the home mechanic
Just a question and a comment here... Would anyone agree with me that the 'newer' model cars (1994 on up) are much more difficult to work on for the home mechanic than the much older models? Or do you cars have gotten much easier and simpler to work on over the years? My belief is that they've become more compact, and as a result are much more difficult to service. I used to have a chevy corsica '94, and that car was extremely difficult for me to work on. It was just very compact and there wasn't much space to move my hands around. For example, In order to change the alternator belt, I'd have to spend a ridiculous amount of time unbolting a top motor mounts in order to get to the belt. And changing the rear spark plugs was also a lot of trouble, as this car was a V6, and 3 of the spark plugs were in the back of the motor - or should I say near the firewall in the back. I'd have to go to the trouble of removing the distributor cap and then had to use a very long extension to remove and replace spark plugs. Because it was difficult to manuever, I did end up stripping one. And replacing the front shocks were also an amazing amount of work, as it took me all day long to do. I certainly wouldn't have had this trouble if it had been an older model car, but the problem with purchasing those cars nowadays is that they are usually too decripit & worn down. Now that my chevy corsica died out, I plan on purchasing another used car this month. I was thinking about maybe purchasing a ford taurus or some other 1995+ on up model car, but a question I'd like to ask is, which cars out there do you think are most friendly to the home mechanic? I'd personally like to be able to do as much work as possible on my car, unless if there is a catastrophic breakdown that forces me to take it to a mechanic. I don't want anyone to take this the wrong way as I'm not trying to put down the mechanics industry as a whole, but over here where I live most of the licensed mechanics are flat out rip offs and price gougers, so looking for a model of car that is most friendly to the home mechanic will be a huge consideration when I go car shopping. thanks > Just a question and a comment here... > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > thanks IMHO, which is worth exactly what you paid for it, anything after about 1990 becomes increasingly more difficult to work on every year. I have an '88 Porsche and that is about the limit of my skill level. If I got anything much newer I'd have to invest in an OBDII scanner first off and also things seem to be packed a lot tighter in the engine bays. nate  Signaturego dry to reply. http://www.toad.net/~njnagel >> Now that my chevy corsica died out, I plan on purchasing another used car this >> month. I was thinking about maybe purchasing a ford taurus or some other [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> industry as a whole, but over here where I live most of the licensed mechanics >> are flat out rip offs and price gougers, Report them to whoever the regulating body is in your area.. The labor rates are usually derived from a labor guide and multiplied by the shops hourly rate. It's VERY expensive to operate an automotive repair dealership. (ARD) People, benefits, rent, shop equipment, and the mechanics tools (which they must individually purchase). Your prices reflect all of it. >>so looking for a model of car that is >> most friendly to the home mechanic will be a huge consideration when I go car [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >anything much newer I'd have to invest in an OBDII scanner first off and >also things seem to be packed a lot tighter in the engine bays. OBD-II scanners are a tool. If you don't understand how OBD-II works, what sets a code, different kinds of codes, and how the individual systems its monitors work -- they are not a lot of help. Lets say you throw a code like P0132 -- Oxygen Sensor High Voltage.. A high voltage is usually a rich condition. Is the O2 sensor telling you the truth? If it is, why do you have a rich condition? Is there a coolant temperature sensor telling the engine its cold and it should run really rich like at start-up? A leaking fuel injector thats dumping fuel? An EVAP purge solenoid thats not working right and isn't being caught by the comprehensive component monitor? There are lots of possibilities. Usually you get multiple codes and using them (w/ knowledge of the systems of a car) helps narrow down the possibilities. Also, with hazardous waste disposal requirements -- it can be more trouble to get rid of the waste products than to actually do the service. As much as I'd like to suggest an easy to work on car -- I really can't think of any. The flip side is to just purchase a car with a fabulous reliability record (Toyota/Honda) and a warranty so that the majority of your services are simple fluid changes, plugs wires, and just let someone with the tools do the timing belts and other major stuff. __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 >As much as I'd like to suggest an easy to work on car -- I really >can't think of any. The flip side is to just purchase a car with a >fabulous reliability record (Toyota/Honda) and a warranty so that the >majority of your services are simple fluid changes, plugs wires, and >just let someone with the tools do the timing belts and other major >stuff. Interesting point you bring up, but I've been told to avoid purchasing foreign cars, as they are supposedly more difficult to work on than domestic brands. I don't know if there's any truth to that or if it's an old wives tale. . >__________________ >Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with >'mail'. >N38.6 W121.4 >>As much as I'd like to suggest an easy to work on car -- I really >>can't think of any. The flip side is to just purchase a car with a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >cars, as they are supposedly more difficult to work on than domestic brands. I >don't know if there's any truth to that or if it's an old wives tale. . No truth at all. I'd rather work on a 4 cylinder Honda than a GM Quad 4 or GM 3.1L/3.4/3.5L V6 ANYDAY. Additionally, the Honda/Toyota's seem to have better repair records.. They also have certified pre-owned programs that may be worth looking into. Many of Toyota and Honda's products are made right here in America (Ohio, California, probably other states I'm forgetting about) so they aren't totally "foreign" anymore. Lots of things are hard to work on with limited information. Buy the factory service manual for whatever you decide to purchase. (Available through dealer or sometimes www.helminc.com) __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 Roughly 4/3/04 21:20, Tysteel40's monkeys randomly typed: >>As much as I'd like to suggest an easy to work on car -- I really >>can't think of any. The flip side is to just purchase a car with a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cars, as they are supposedly more difficult to work on than domestic brands. I > don't know if there's any truth to that or if it's an old wives tale. . Nah, more of an old idiots tale. Never been true since I started working on cars. Only issues were that parts were harder to find and some of the really old manufacturers of the 50's and 60's had rather bad reputations for not even stocking their dealers properly. As for the cars themselves, an SU can be rebuilt in half the time of an older american carb. SignatureEvolution is really just survival of the minimally adequate >Interesting point you bring up, but I've been told to avoid purchasing foreign >cars, as they are supposedly more difficult to work on than domestic brands. I Not only that, but parts availability can be a problem if you're taking a long trip and there isn't a dealer in the area. (Ever try to get a fuel pump for your Borgward out in the middle of nowhere?) Those little foreign jobs do have an edge in gas mileage, but given the cost and availability of parts and service you have to wonder if you're getting real economy overall. SignatureRoger Blake (Subtract 10 for email.) >Not only that, but parts availability can be a problem if you're taking >a long trip and there isn't a dealer in the area. (Ever try to get a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >cost and availability of parts and service you have to wonder if >you're getting real economy overall. Very interesting comment. Considering that at least a couple of people on this topic have said that foreign cars (such as 4 cylinder Honda and Toyotas) generally aren't more difficult to work on than their domestic counterparts, then why do you think there will be an issue of availability of service for such cars? I've also heard this too elsewhere, that there are many mechanics who don't want to work on foreign cars. If these 4 cylinder Hondas or Toyotas are so easy to work on as purported on this ng, then how come some mechanics wouldn't want to touch them? thanks >>Not only that, but parts availability can be a problem if you're taking >>a long trip and there isn't a dealer in the area. (Ever try to get a >>fuel pump for your Borgward out in the middle of nowhere?) My experience has been that most parts houses (just about anywhere in the continental US) can get me anything I want within a day or so. >>Those little foreign jobs do have an edge in gas mileage, but given the >>cost and availability of parts and service you have to wonder if [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >then why do you think there will be an issue of availability of service for >such cars? There is no issue. I can go into any Napa and get nearly any basic component I need for a Honda or Toyota. If I need a head for my Honda and I'm in the middle of nowhere, the service station will simply have to order it from the nearest dealer and it'll be there in the morning -- courtesy of FedEx/UPS. Part availability is mostly a non-issue. >I've also heard this too elsewhere, that there are many mechanics who don't >want to work on foreign cars. If these 4 cylinder Hondas or Toyotas are so >easy to work on as purported on this ng, then how come some mechanics wouldn't >want to touch them? I know of NO mechanics that blindly turn down imports. Some don't have the OBD-II scanner software updates for certain brands -- but they all have AllData/Mitchell and metric sockets. Anyone can replace an alternator for you.. The other reason a mechanic wouldn't want to touch a car ... Like say a Nissan Sentra from around 1987? Is that they have lots of possible issues that can take HOURS to diagnose and fix. Feedback carburetor on that car can be hours of fun.. __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 .=HPs_z; >>I've also heard this too elsewhere, that there are many mechanics who don't >>want to work on foreign cars. If these 4 cylinder Hondas or Toyotas are so [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >__________________ >I am having some real fun with a Nissan Sentra 1987Federal Feedback carburetor. That is what brings me to reading this board. The problem I am having is where the previous mechanic might have showed his .creativity This has been a learning experience for me though. Any technical advice out there? Where to find obscure parts like vaccum sensor (or boost sensor?.......based on intake manifold pressure it sends a voltage of 0-4 volt signal to the ICM which then controls fuel and ignition timing...) First objective is to get running though. Any advise on doing that is appreciated Tysteel40 wrote in rec.autos.tech >>Not only that, but parts availability can be a problem if you're taking >>a long trip and there isn't a dealer in the area. (Ever try to get a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Toyotas are so easy to work on as purported on this ng, then how come > some mechanics wouldn't want to touch them? I know that back in the days of yore, when knights slew dragons and detroit built most of the cars, most mechanics did not have metric wrenches, nor did they have the manuals, or other special tools to work on them. There were, and still are, mechanics who specialize in cars from one country. That probably is partly to ease the parts crunch, and partly to be good at fixing pretty much the same thing. For instance, changing the timing belt on a Honda is a bit time consuming, especially if you don't do it very often. Any mechanic can do it, and for that matter, apparently most shade tree mechanics can do it. But it is, from the looks of it, a pain in the butt. And almost all cars have some kind of special setup, tool requirement, or something that requires some special skill set. However, changing plugs, wires, distributor cap and rotor on a 4 cylinder Honda is as easy, if not easier, than doing the same on a 4 cylinder Chrysler product. I had to replace a radio in a Plymouth Mini van once, took me longer than it did to R and R the radio in the Honda I owned. SignatureDick #1349 Damn it . . . Don't you dare ask God to help me. To her housekeeper, who had begun to pray aloud. ~~ Joan Crawford, actress, d. May 10, 1977 Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com email: dickcr@comcast.net At a technician's level: I can't complain, because when you become accustomed to the new. You quickly forget the old. But I say newer technology sure beats the old, would you want to drive a 57 Chevy every day? I'd just want to restore one and keep it to drive on the nicest days, but the mileage in comparrison to a 2000 Chevy is 10 fold, and the durabilaty is also the same. Just my devalued $0.02 Refinish King > Just a question and a comment here... > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > thanks There's no simple rule like "newer cars are easier/harder to work on".. Some kinds of cars are just going to be harder to service, like FWD V6 as you mentioned - 4-cylinder vehicles are generally going to have better access. It depends more on the specific model.. for example, GM's new Ecotec 4-cylinder engines seem pretty easy to work on for most routine service (the cartridge-style oil filter definitely is easier to access and can be changed with less mess than most conventional filter setups). Also, a number of services are needed less often on newer cars (due to things like platinum spark plugs and extended-life coolant), so it's less of an issue. SignatureRobert Hancock Saskatoon, SK, Canada To email, remove "nospam" from hancockr@nospamshaw.ca Home Page: http://www.roberthancock.com/ > Just a question and a comment here... > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > thanks >There's no simple rule like "newer cars are easier/harder to work on".. Some >kinds of cars are just going to be harder to service, like FWD V6 as you >mentioned - 4-cylinder vehicles are generally going to have better access. >It depends more on the specific model.. for example, Aren't the 6 cylinder vehicles more efficient than 4 cylinders? Don't those 6 cylinder cars generally last longer? Maybe when looking for a used car, I should keep in mind to choose a 4 cylinder car over a V6, if it's access I'm looking for. The problem I had with working on the 1994 Chevy Corsica V6 was that there was very little access to service the vehicle. For example, when the water pump gave out, there was barely any space to put my hands in to unbolt the old one and replace it. The motor was so compact that there was just not enough space to efficiently move my hands and tools around to replace certain parts. And if I was lucky enough to budge some tools in there, it would take me a long time to replace parts. As I already mentioned in my other post, changing the rear spark plugs was a hassle with the 6 cylinder car. It was recommended to me to purchase a pick-up truck, since there is much more space and access, but a car is more within my budget. thanks, >It was recommended to me to purchase a pick-up truck, since there is much more >space and access, but a car is more within my budget. This is very true. In a pickup, the engine is mounted longitudinally which gives you easier access to the front accessories and space around the spark plugs. For ease of working on in a car, I think a 4-cylinder Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla is pretty hard to beat. Everythings basically on top.. The manifolds don't block anything you would ever need to get at in normal maintenance. I think they provide ample space on the sides. The only negative I can think of is stuff like the timing belt and water pump. They can be a little tough without a well stocked tool box and some air tools. __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 >>It was recommended to me to purchase a pick-up truck, since there >>is much more space and access, but a car is more within my budget. >This is very true. In a pickup, the engine is mounted >longitudinally which gives you easier access to the front ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ News to owners of VW Caddy. >accessories and space around the spark plugs. Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! > For ease of working on in a car, I think a 4-cylinder Honda Civic or > Toyota Corolla is pretty hard to beat. Everythings basically on top.. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > water pump. They can be a little tough without a well stocked tool > box and some air tools. Helped a friend do a timing belt on his 98 Acura CL. What a production. First problem - the factory torque on the pulley was like 500 ft-lbs. We bought and returned two impacts after mine failed to budge it. They were supposed to be able to remove it - no dice. The local Crappy Tire did it with a 3/4" monster gun... All in all, what a production for a regular maintenace item. Probably woulda been quicker to just pull the whole engine out. Ray (just a DIYer...) >> For ease of working on in a car, I think a 4-cylinder Honda Civic or >> Toyota Corolla is pretty hard to beat. Everythings basically on top.. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Helped a friend do a timing belt on his 98 Acura CL. What a production. >First problem - the factory torque on the pulley was like 500 ft-lbs. Its not that bad. It just feels like it. >We bought and returned two impacts after mine failed to budge it. They >were supposed to be able to remove it - no dice. The local Crappy Tire >did it with a 3/4" monster gun... >All in all, what a production for a regular maintenace item. Probably >woulda been quicker to just pull the whole engine out. Trust me, it's actually not faster to pull the whole engine out.. They readily come off with 1/2" SnapOn/Mac Impact Wrenches. Harbor Freight stuff frequently won't cut it. Lock the cams, use a pulley holder, they come right off with any good quality impact w/ sufficiently air supply. __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 >>>For ease of working on in a car, I think a 4-cylinder Honda Civic or >>>Toyota Corolla is pretty hard to beat. Everythings basically on top.. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > holder, they come right off with any good quality impact w/ > sufficiently air supply. I see. Most home mechanics have a big a.s compressor and a SnapOn Impact wrench right beside the plasma cutters. ;) And the mofo is on TIGHT. Without an impact it's not possible to get it off... But that's why I stick with GM's. Not 'cause they're better but because I'm starting to know the "tricks" - I can take almost any 80's GM dash apart with a phillips and two sockets (7 and 10mm.) Ray >> They readily come off with 1/2" SnapOn/Mac Impact Wrenches. Harbor >> Freight stuff frequently won't cut it. Lock the cams, use a pulley [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I see. Most home mechanics have a big a.s compressor and a SnapOn >Impact wrench right beside the plasma cutters. ;) No, plasma cutters are completely optional!! Although they really shouldn't be for certain 1980s GM vehicles. But a good quality impact and air compressor (2 Stage -- REAL 5 HP) + name brand impact will take off just about anything. >And the mofo is on TIGHT. Without an impact it's not possible to get it >off... Its on tight, but with the pulley holder (not expensive) and an impact, you're good to go. The crankbolt shouldn't be a determining factor for the kind of car you buy. >But that's why I stick with GM's. Not 'cause they're better but because >I'm starting to know the "tricks" - I can take almost any 80's GM dash >apart with a phillips and two sockets (7 and 10mm.) The previous generation F-150 dash is alot of fun too. Mostly 7mm's if I remember.. Far worse than any GM/Honda/Toyota dash.. __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 >>>They readily come off with 1/2" SnapOn/Mac Impact Wrenches. Harbor >>>Freight stuff frequently won't cut it. Lock the cams, use a pulley [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > No, plasma cutters are completely optional!! Although they really > shouldn't be for certain 1980s GM vehicles. Nah, most old GM's of that vintage you just need a tetanus shot after working on. ;) > Its on tight, but with the pulley holder (not expensive) and an > impact, you're good to go. The crankbolt shouldn't be a determining > factor for the kind of car you buy. I have a belt driven 5 hp compressor. 1/2" Hose. At 120 PSI no 1/2" impact from Home Depot or Sears under $250CDN would take it off. We went through three of them... The local Crappy Tire took it off. I tried breaker bars + leverage, and no go there either... I'll stick with my GM's. I have 18mm wrenches and sockets now - no regular sets seem to have them, but that's apparently the only size for the front suspension on the wife's Beretta... Although... on the Acura, most of the bolts were 10,12,16 mm... not one of every possible size like on some other cars I've seen... >Although... on the Acura, most of the bolts were 10,12,16 mm... not one >of every possible size like on some other cars I've seen... Never seen a 16 on an Acura. 10, 12, 14, 17, 19 mm are about all I can remember ever using on an Acura/Honda. __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 >>Although... on the Acura, most of the bolts were 10,12,16 mm... not one >>of every possible size like on some other cars I've seen... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 10, 12, 14, 17, 19 mm are about all I can remember ever using on an > Acura/Honda. possibly. My bad - not my car... I just remembered that they seemed to stick with 3 or 4 size bolts for pretty much everything which is convenient for working on them... I thought they were all even sizes unlike my GM's which seem to use 10,13,15 mm. Ray >>There's no simple rule like "newer cars are easier/harder to work on".. Some >>kinds of cars are just going to be harder to service, like FWD V6 as you >>mentioned - 4-cylinder vehicles are generally going to have better access. >>It depends more on the specific model.. for example, >Aren't the 6 cylinder vehicles more efficient than 4 cylinders? >Don't those 6 cylinder cars generally last longer? Sorry.... this newsgroup is only for people with an IQ above room temperature. In Centigrade. Troll elsewhere. Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! Roughly 4/3/04 21:33, Tysteel40's monkeys randomly typed: >>There's no simple rule like "newer cars are easier/harder to work on".. Some >>kinds of cars are just going to be harder to service, like FWD V6 as you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Aren't the 6 cylinder vehicles more efficient than 4 cylinders? Don't those 6 > cylinder cars generally last longer? No, and No. Predicting reliability by counting the number of cylinders is about as accurate as trying to use the paint color or the color of your wife's hair...and with as much basis in fact. A well designed and built 4 banger will outlast a poorly designed 6 cylinder... and vice versa. Purely from a theoretical standpoint, the fewer the parts the more reliable...unfortunately that theory of MTBF tends to apply best when the parts themselves are equal in quality. > Maybe when looking for a used car, I should keep in mind to choose a 4 cylinder > car over a V6, if it's access I'm looking for. The problem I had with > working on the 1994 Chevy Corsica V6 was that there was very little access to > service the vehicle. Mainly just look at engine size compared to engine compartment size...and the location of the engine compartment. And the fewer covers, baffles, etc. to get in your way the better. SignatureEvolution is really just survival of the minimally adequate >Just a question and a comment here... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >My belief is that they've become more compact, and as a result are much more >difficult to service. Small cars, preferrably ones without AC equipment or automatic transmission. Inexpensive parts & very good mileage are also bonuses. You're gonna see a lot less single-digit MPG hulks on the road with these gas prices (a long time coming for small-car drivers...not everyone is complaining about higher gas prices). A 3 or 4 cylinder car usually doesn't have a rear set of spark plugs to bother with. But engine space isn't a top priority to most manufactrers...things like passenger space and amenities like A/C are considerably more important. And above all, making it harder to fix a car makes people buy a new one when the old one breaks down. Dan > Just a question and a comment here... > > Would anyone agree with me that the 'newer' model cars (1994 on up) are much > more difficult to work on for the home mechanic than the much older models? No, I can't agree with this. I cut my teeth on a 68 Ford Torino with a 302 in it. Even that was hard to work on in some places the engine compartment is really tight. But once I discovered a real auto jobber and the many special tools available I realized this is how the pros can work so fast. Another thing I learned that makes jobs go a lot faster is don't be afraid to remove parts that are in the way for clearance. (of course, put them back when your done) Also an air compressor and a set of air wrenches helps a lot too. Ted Unless you get something old (and that's the route I've taken), your best bet is to get a car with an inline 4 or 6 cylinder engine. It's the V-engines that always give me trouble reaching stuff... Emanuel Signature1983 Porsche 911 1983 Porsche 944 for reliability check teh Consumers reports annual aftermarket survey. the public library herre has them going back for years. in Canada there's also the Lemon Aid used car buyer's guide. for servicability I've heard the rear wheel drive vechicles are easier becuase the drive line is not in the engine compartment and the engine is not turened around to face sideways. personaly I'd prefer a free wheeling engine, not a interferenne engine where a timing belt problam can sent the cylinder head crashing into the valves. although Honda makes great engines they are all interference. finally I've read some bad things about Mazda's, like having to remove the engine from the car to change the timing belt. OTOH to change the timing belt on the Mazda engine in my Ford Festiva I only had to remove the drive belt pulleys and the plastic timing belt shield. I didn't have to struggle with the big nut on the crankshaft. Mine is a carburetted engine. Later they changed to fuel injection and moved stuff around making it look more crowded from the photos in the Haynes manual. I'd open the hood and see how crowded the engine compartment looks. I was interested in seeing this thread and am surprized not to read teha tehre are definite preferences amongh peopel who have experience working on cars. I anyone could get a copy of the book mechanics use to estimate labour costs it would be interesting to put all the numbers in a spreadsheet and sort out the overall lowest labour vehicles. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned I've always wondered how people work on cars like Subaru box engine, GMC Safari, Toyota mid-engine vans, etc. Roughly 4/4/04 09:57, AC/DCdude17's monkeys randomly typed: > X-No-Archive: Yes > > I've always wondered how people work on cars like Subaru box engine, GMC Safari, > Toyota mid-engine vans, etc. More than a few are much easier to work on if you just put them up in the air and go in from underneath. SignatureEvolution is really just survival of the minimally adequate Tysteel40 wrote in rec.autos.tech > Just a question and a comment here... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > over the years? My belief is that they've become more compact, and as a > result are much more difficult to service. Much of it depends upon the car. I had a 72 Dodge that you had to remove the passenger side front tire to change all the spark plugs. And some of the older cars had the distributor in the back of the engine. The only way to change points and condensor was to sit on top of the radiator and lean over the engine. And with all the crap around them you had to loosen the distributor slightly, then start the engine, adjust the timing, shut off the engine, and then tighten the distributor. And that means that the timing could drift a little bit. I had to change a starter of a VW Square back, 3 bolts holding it in. 2 you got from the bottom, one you had to go in from the top through a very tight engine compartment, and work by feel. And another thing about the old V-8's is that they would often put the plugs deep into a well where you could not see them. You could only guess about putting the plugs in, and the wires on the plugs. On the other hand, there was usually more than enough room to manuever around the engine. And rear wheel drive meant that the oil drain was at the rear of the engine compartment, where it is easy to get to. My 88 Buick has the drain plug is sitting dead center behind a tire, making it difficult to reach, and the filter is over a strut which means a big oil mess if I change the oil myself. So far, I have just taken it in to have it done. And the thermostat is located underneath the throttle body, so that when I change it I will have to remove the throttle body first. Newer cars have an added layer of complexity with the sensors and computer. But that also gives them more trouble shooting help. Nothing is out of reach for the back yard mechanic, it is only abit more difficult to reach some things. But if you want something easy to work on, go Honda's, Toyotas, and Nissans with 4 cylinder engines. SignatureDick #1349 Damn it . . . Don't you dare ask God to help me. To her housekeeper, who had begun to pray aloud. ~~ Joan Crawford, actress, d. May 10, 1977 Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com email: dickcr@comcast.net > done. And the thermostat is located underneath the throttle body, so that Is this the same car one where the speedometer cable blocks the oil filter? My dad had one of those Electra cars, and during the time before the head gasket went, we used to put a sheet of cardboard over the rad in winter, because of that thermostat location. The car was six years old at the time. R wrote in rec.autos.tech >> done. And the thermostat is located underneath the throttle body, so that > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the rad in winter, because of that thermostat location. The car was six > years old at the time. That I don't know. I do know that the car does not warm up all the way in cooler weather, so I was going to change out the thermostat. SignatureDick #1349 Damn it . . . Don't you dare ask God to help me. To her housekeeper, who had begun to pray aloud. ~~ Joan Crawford, actress, d. May 10, 1977 Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com email: dickcr@comcast.net >But if you want something easy to work on, go Honda's, Toyotas, and Nissans >with 4 cylinder engines. How about the domestic brands like ford and chevy with 4 cylinders, or are they actually more packed that the foreign cars you've mentioned? >>But if you want something easy to work on, go Honda's, Toyotas, and Nissans >>with 4 cylinder engines. The Nissan 4s are not necessarily easy to work on.. Lots of vacuum lines going every which way.. The 2.4L in the Altima is not fun if you have to pull the head.. Its hard to get at the bolts attaching the intake to the block. The Civic and Corolla are somewhat easier. >How about the domestic brands like ford and chevy with 4 cylinders, or are they >actually more packed that the foreign cars you've mentioned? The Ford Zetec isn't bad. I think it may be used in the Focus... It was used in the Contour. As for GM.. The Cavalier generally has sufficient clearance too. __________________ Note: To reply, replace the word 'spam' embedded in return address with 'mail'. N38.6 W121.4 Tysteel40 wrote in rec.autos.tech >>But if you want something easy to work on, go Honda's, Toyotas, and >>Nissans with 4 cylinder engines. > > How about the domestic brands like ford and chevy with 4 cylinders, or > are they actually more packed that the foreign cars you've mentioned? I only worked on one domestic 4 banger, and it was possibly a bit harder than the Honda I owned. But no a lot. Of course, the newer the car, the less work that will be needed. And with modern ignition systems, the parts that need replacing don't need it very often. Although changing oil can be more difficult with front wheel drive cars. The location of the drain plug means that you have to jack up the car right where you need to slide under the car. But, I would guess that in almost all cases the 4 cylinder engines will all be pretty easy to work on. SignatureDick #1349 Damn it . . . Don't you dare ask God to help me. To her housekeeper, who had begun to pray aloud. ~~ Joan Crawford, actress, d. May 10, 1977 Home Page: dickcr.iwarp.com email: dickcr@comcast.net > But if you want something easy to work on, go Honda's, Toyotas, and Nissans > with 4 cylinder engines. Oh Yeah, like my 1990 Integra that needs the drive axle removed to replace the alternator! I love the car but this was unbelievable! > Oh Yeah, like my 1990 Integra that needs the drive axle removed to replace > the alternator! I love the car but this was unbelievable! You would have *loved* the VW 411's and 412's circa 1970. To replace the A/C belt, you had to remove the transaxle and lower the engine. Paid flatrate 9.5 hours - a topnotch A/C mechanic who was small enough to get 70-90 billable in a forty hour week took 13 actual hours the first time, and neither he nor the customer were very happy about it. Same car used to spark every time the fat owner hit a bump - battery was under the driver's metal frame bottomed seat - ZAP! Now you know why you still see some VW Type 3's but the Type 4's all had a wooden stake driven through them a long time ago. Stay away from front wheel drive cars, stay away from engines that have rubber camshaft timing belts that also drive the water pump. Choose domestic cars or trucks with body on frame versus unibody and choose cars/trucks with large engine bays that can accommodate normal size fingers and hands without the need for excessive parts removal or special tools. My choice so far is the rear wheel drive Ford products like the Crown Vic or better yet the Mercury Grand Marquis or Lincoln Town car. They sell used for much less than a Camry and give back in terms of reliability, readily available parts and ease of repair. These cars easily go 300k miles and the only pain is if you need to deal with the overhead cam heads, which is unlikely. They have steel roller chains for timing and almost never need replacing. You can adjust caster/camber as well as the normal toe. They use standard shocks instead of struts. Changing 8 spark plugs takes 10 minutes with no heroics. Get a shop manual and a diagnostic tool for reading/manipulating the driveline computer and you should be good to go. DO NOT get a used Taurus. I invented some new words working on my last one. Stan K. > Just a question and a comment here... > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > thanks >My choice so far is the rear wheel drive Ford products like the Crown >Vic or better yet the Mercury Grand Marquis or Lincoln Town car. They [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >well as the normal toe. They use standard shocks instead of struts. >Changing 8 spark plugs takes 10 minutes with no heroics. CAR magazine in the UK recently did an article on how this car is under-appreciated in the US. A buddy of mine has 3 in his family (him, his brother, and his dad) and likes them. They just aren't appealing to me. Emanuel Signature1983 Porsche 911 1983 Porsche 944 > Just a question and a comment here... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My belief is that they've become more compact, and as a result are much more > difficult to service. Well, the cars from the 70's can be a real PITA with the 50,000 vacuum lines you're likely to encounter. Special fun if the previous owner had the car painted and they painted over the routing diagram. My $.02 - just open the hood and have a look around at the car you might want to buy... if you think it's gonna suck to work on it, keep looking. Except... there's at least one part on every car that's friggin' impossible to get off. Ray > Well, the cars from the 70's can be a real PITA with the 50,000 vacuum > lines you're likely to encounter. Special fun if the previous owner had > the car painted and they painted over the routing diagram. sounds like the feedback carburetor on my '89 Festiva the EGR system is pretty complicated - EGR valve, EGR moderator valve, EGR solenoid the distributor has vacuum advance, centrifugal advance, and computer advance it has two air injection system - Ford's pulse air and something else I cant' recall whatever happend to KISS? cars designed by government regulation. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned > Would anyone agree with me that the 'newer' model cars > (1994 on up) are much more difficult to work on for the > home mechanic than the much older models? > I used to have a chevy corsica '94, and that car was extremely > difficult for me to work on. It was just very compact and > there wasn't much space to move my hands around. > Now that my chevy corsica died out, I plan on purchasing > another used car this month. I was thinking about maybe > purchasing a ford taurus or some other 1995+ on up model car, Wouldn't it be safer to get a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord instead of a Taurus, assuming that they were in the same condition? You don't even need the V-6 for adequate power with an Accord or Camry. Toyotas aren't that bad to work on, but I've heard that Hondas often have some things that are very hard to fix but fortunately those things rarely break. I think that it's a myth that parts for foreign cars cost more or are harder to get because in my case I've found that Ford is one of the worst for parts. My dealer, one of the biggest in the state, usually had to order parts (really inconvenient for warranty repairs -- had to make two trips each time), while the Toyota and Nissan dealers always had even odd items in stock. And the prices were cheaper, too, like $20 for a Ford trans. pan gasket, $8 for a Toyota's, or $8 for an sensor connector repair kit from Nissan (in stock) vs. $30 for Ford's (had to order). >>Would anyone agree with me that the 'newer' model cars >>(1994 on up) are much more difficult to work on for the >>home mechanic than the much older models? I would say that the most difficult cars to work on were those from the late 70s to the early 90s. By about 1993, automakers were beginning to pay attention to serviceability again, and emissions controls were no longer such a tangled maze of vacuum hoses. I think cars from then to now are actually MUCH EASIER to work on than those from about 1977 to 1991. Nowhere near as easy as 1930 thru 1970, but definitely better than the 80s. Some brands are still annoying to work on (some GM models, all Hondas, some Toyotas) but in general its getting better. Want to see a maintenance horror? Look at an '85 Cadillac or Honda. Want to see something amazingly easy to work on? Look at a Chrysler LH car from 1993 to now. > Wouldn't it be safer to get a Toyota Camry or Honda Accord instead of > a Taurus, assuming that they were in the same condition? Not from where I sit, although I'd pick a Chrysler LH series or Buick/Pontiac front-drive sedan over the Taurus. With Ford, the Crown Vic beats the Taurus hands down, but its too bland for most people. |
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