Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / October 2004
improvised in-car lighting
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ant - 26 Oct 2004 21:39 GMT I want to install a new powerful light inside my car, far more powerful than anything the dome lights provide. one thought that hit me was to use the low-voltage (12v) halogen lamps available for track lighting. my questions-
1. given that my car battery isnt really 12v will this lamp have any problem with voltages like 10v or 16 v, or voltage fluctuation?
2. my home track lighting has a little circuitry to provide power to the lamps. some of this is obviously the 120v AC --> 12v DC (it is DC, right?) conversion, but is there anything else i need to know abotu these bulbs? woudl i need some sort of current limiter, or anything exciting like that?
3. is there a better alternative i don't know about?
yes, i know they get very hot, and i know they can use a lot of power. i was thinking of one of the 50 watt bulbs.
thanks, anthony
Don Bruder - 26 Oct 2004 22:30 GMT > I want to install a new powerful light inside my car, far more > powerful than anything the dome lights provide. one thought that hit [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 1. given that my car battery isnt really 12v will this lamp have any > problem with voltages like 10v or 16 v, or voltage fluctuation? Nothing significant. Depending on how much of a fluctuation exists, the brightness may change in response to it, but aside from that... <shrug>
When you get right down to brass tacks, a halogen bulb is nothing more or less than your basic incandescent filled with a fancy gas mixture that's supposed to keep the metal that boils off the filament from plating onto the glass/quartz/whatever-material-it-happens-to-be envelope and dimming the bulb. A side-effect is increased life, since the gas mixture is supposed to drive the stray metal atoms (that would have plated onto the envelope) that have boiled off it back onto the filament, preventing filament erosion/breakage. All an incandescent "cares" about is that there's enough voltage to overcome its resistance and allow current flow, and enough current to heat the filament to it's "glowing" range. Beyond that, voltage/current are pretty much irrelevant unless you get into the realm of "stupid-huge" voltage/current numbers. With the halogens, they need to run in their designed temperature zone to get the benefit of being halogens, but even if underdriven, they should produce plenty of light - They'll just be a "more expensive incandescent" otherwise. AC versus DC is a non-issue for them - Given a bulb suitable for the voltage being used, you should see zero practical difference whether the juice is AC or DC. Flourescents or LEDs, on the other hand, are sensitive to AC versus DC issues, either not functioning at all, or functioning poorly. Likewise, arc (discharge) lamps - Some of those are polarity-sensitive, others don't care what the polarity is, or even if it's AC or DC.
> 2. my home track lighting has a little circuitry to provide power to > the lamps. some of this is obviously the 120v AC --> 12v DC (it is DC, > right?) conversion, but is there anything else i need to know abotu > these bulbs? woudl i need some sort of current limiter, or anything > exciting like that? Unlikely. It's just your basic step-down transformer, *POSSIBLY* with a rectifier and voltage regulator. As long as the voltage/current is reasonably correct (and "reasonably correct" is a pretty big target) it'll light up. Go ridiculously over voltage, and you may find the bulb developing thermal problems, or just plain "blowing out" when powered up, but unless there's a fire issue involved, not really a big deal. Go under voltage, and it's either not going to light, or light only dimly, at best. Again, no big deal.
> 3. is there a better alternative i don't know about? Dunno... why do you want a mega-bulb inside the car? That would have a bearing on alternate ideas.
 Signature Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004. Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address. See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.
James C. Reeves - 26 Oct 2004 22:50 GMT Why would one need that much light (50-watts) inside their car?
|I want to install a new powerful light inside my car, far more | powerful than anything the dome lights provide. one thought that hit [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] | thanks, | anthony ant - 27 Oct 2004 05:16 GMT "James C. Reeves" <jcnospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> Why would one need that much light (50-watts) inside their car? (chuckle) think of my escort as a 40 mpg RV. i live in my car. or at least i do while im on long irresponsible climbing trips, and im sick of the ridiculous dome lights for gear and food sorting past 10 PM. this is *not* for reading maps;)
if i could ask another question- not related-
i am wiring in a hidden kill switch for my fuel pump. the switch will be in the feed to the motor, at the intertia switch. i have a small toggle that is perfect for my application, but i dont know if the rating is appropriate- its rated for 3A at 125VAC. i know that DC amperage ratings are different. will this switch be ok? (i dont know the actual draw from the fuel pump, my multimeter is broken, apparently). how does one compare DC/AC current ratings?
to all posters- thanks for the advice and the handholding, anthony
MasterBlaster - 27 Oct 2004 11:51 GMT > > Why would one need that much light (50-watts) inside their car? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ridiculous dome lights for gear and food sorting past 10 PM. this is > *not* for reading maps;) In my area, the police and taxis have rather huge auxiliary dome lights screwed to the headliner. Big 6 or 7 inch diameter things, pushbutton on/off. You can probably find something similar at RV or marine supply stores.
> if i could ask another question- not related- > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the actual draw from the fuel pump, my multimeter is broken, > apparently). how does one compare DC/AC current ratings? Y'know, I've been wondering that same thing for several years. :(
ray - 27 Oct 2004 16:42 GMT >>if i could ask another question- not related- >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>the actual draw from the fuel pump, my multimeter is broken, >>apparently). how does one compare DC/AC current ratings? Use a switch and a relay. Your car probably has a relay controlling the fuel pump already - get another one and wire the switch up to that. Low current draw through the switch - just enough to turn on the relay.
Or if you don't want to deal with a relay, there are switches available for 15A DC for a couple of bucks. I'm guessing on the fuel pump draw, but if IIRC, my buddy's Holley fuel pump has a 10A fuse.
Ray
ant - 28 Oct 2004 00:17 GMT ray <nospam@example.com> wrote in message news
> Use a switch and a relay. Your car probably has a relay controlling the > fuel pump already - get another one and wire the switch up to that. Low > current draw through the switch - just enough to turn on the relay. i thought about this earlier, but really want to keep it simple. it really seems like an application that a switch would still be appropriate for.
> Or if you don't want to deal with a relay, there are switches available > for 15A DC for a couple of bucks. I'm guessing on the fuel pump draw, > but if IIRC, my buddy's Holley fuel pump has a 10A fuse. ah-ha! excellent thoguht. ill check if my car has a fuse for the fuel pump. that woudl tell me something useful.
anyone know of a reliable way to estimate 12VDC current ratings on components where there is only a 120 VAC rating?
thanks, anthony
wws - 28 Oct 2004 04:21 GMT > ray <nospam@example.com> wrote in message news > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > thanks, > anthony http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ac+dc+switch&hl=en&lr=&group=sci.electronics.b asics&selm=33ce9d72.470872%40news.dircon.co.uk&rnum=1
ant - 28 Oct 2004 06:02 GMT ray <nospam@example.com> wrote in message news
> Use a switch and a relay. Your car probably has a relay controlling the > fuel pump already - get another one and wire the switch up to that. Low [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > for 15A DC for a couple of bucks. I'm guessing on the fuel pump draw, > but if IIRC, my buddy's Holley fuel pump has a 10A fuse. i posted a short while ago saying i didnt want to use a relay for simplicity's sake. then i looked up my fuel pump fuse. looks like 20A. thats more than any switch i can find with a quick bit of online browsing, so the relay is looking tempting. if i wire the relay into the pump power, will the relay activation draw do bad things to the fuel pump system? i havent looked at the specs on any relays, so dont know how much power they suck to stay on. i also dont know if the computer in my car can pick up on electrical oddities such as this add-on circuit. the reason i ask- it woudl make my life a lot easier if i could run the relay switch off the power to the fuel pump, not the power from the battery.
example schematic: electricant.net/projects/relay.gif
Ray - 28 Oct 2004 06:45 GMT > ray <nospam@example.com> wrote in message news > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > example schematic: electricant.net/projects/relay.gif How about putting a switch in series with the probably already existing fuel pump relay?
Your local electronics store should have a 20A DC switch for cheap. or summitracing.com part # SUM-G1435 is a 25A switch for $6.99.
Steve - 28 Oct 2004 16:21 GMT >> how does one compare DC/AC current ratings? > > Y'know, I've been wondering that same thing for several years. :( Most of the time, it doesn't make any difference (when it does matter is when you're choosing ratings for electromagnets, motors, ballsts and other inductive loads, not incandescent light bulbs and simple switches). Current is current, doesn't matter if its AC or DC when it comes to the rating of the switch.
Now, POWER is the product of voltage and current (power=V*I), so you do need to remember that a 50 watt bulb operated on 12 volts will draw 10 times the amount of current that a 50 watt bulb on 120 volts would draw, so the wires and switch for a 12 volt DC 50 watt lamp actually have to be heavier (to carry more current) than they would on a 120 volt AC system.
Back to the question of the fuel pump- look at the fuse or circuit breaker that carries the fuel pump load, and get a switch that can handle the same current or more than the fuse or circuit breaker. My guess is that 2 amps isn't enough.
Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH - 27 Oct 2004 13:42 GMT > "James C. Reeves" <jcnospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >> Why would one need that much light (50-watts) inside their car? > > (chuckle) > think of my escort as a 40 mpg RV. Well, there's your answer; check with the RV suppliers in your area. They're much more likely to have something that's designed for a 12V system and can handle the added stresses of being used in a vehicle.
Bob M. - 27 Oct 2004 03:25 GMT >I want to install a new powerful light inside my car, far more > powerful than anything the dome lights provide. one thought that hit > me was to use the low-voltage (12v) halogen lamps available for track > lighting. my questions- Don't those get pretty hot? Hot enough to melt the dome light's plastic mount? (& I know we're not talking those floor-standing halogen lights)
ant - 27 Oct 2004 14:18 GMT "Bob M." <no@nospam.com> wrote in message news:
> Don't those get pretty hot? Hot enough to melt the dome light's plastic > mount? (& I know we're not talking those floor-standing halogen lights) yeah, they get seriously hot. if i go with this option ill definitley be making my own mount for it.
Bill - 28 Oct 2004 09:15 GMT Get one of those stupid under car flouresent kits in white and mount it to your ceiling. Problem solved.
Ray - 27 Oct 2004 05:22 GMT > I want to install a new powerful light inside my car, far more > powerful than anything the dome lights provide. one thought that hit > me was to use the low-voltage (12v) halogen lamps available for track > lighting. my questions- One question for you -> can the light handle being in a car or will the first bump reduce the filament to chunks? Might be worth testing - plug one in and shake it around a bit to see if it can handle the abuse.
(I'm thinking rough service bulbs for trouble lights vs regular bulbs.)
You might be better off with a cheap driving light in the car. (and some sunglasses)
Ray
Al Bundy - 29 Oct 2004 00:58 GMT > > I want to install a new powerful light inside my car, far more > > powerful than anything the dome lights provide. one thought that hit [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ray I would check out some of the new diode light arays. The power needed is so low that you could use regular dry batteries. If you ran them off the car battery they would not run it down.
David Askari - 30 Oct 2004 09:26 GMT > > (I'm thinking rough service bulbs for trouble lights vs regular bulbs.) > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is so low that you could use regular dry batteries. If you ran them > off the car battery they would not run it down. You want to have a cool white bright light with low current and not hot light a halogen or bulky like a florencent? This is what I have done for 12v latterns and direct replacement of various battery florencents and even a headlamp. The light source of cheap or free scanners has two types of bulbs. Regular flourencent and really thin flourecents that are bright (you can use the ones from laptop LCD displays). All you need to take out the scanner is the bulb of course and a little board with transisters and etc. that the light plugs into (two wires). Cut the board loose by cutting the other two wires (black is negative or ground to the car, and the red is + or to the postive battery). And thats is It. Those bulky 12 volt florencent light for cars are also a good driver for these bulbs. And they use less batteries and are bright, scanner ones warm up in a minute to blinding bright and laptop one are instant bright. energizer has a 6 volt flashlight with a tiny fluorent which I made into a headlamp. a 6amp lead acid on my belt has lasted all night and still good, so maybe longer. I still think led,s are to expensive. Flourencent filaments are small so I would think they can take it, these small lamps are held with soft rubbery type stuff and furthermore (no heat) a silicon adhesive (household goop) well hold it well. I shiny alluminum refecter from old copiers that have those long halogen lights will concentrate the light to a even brighter effect. The coller is not like the yellowish halogen but more cold white.
Paul Hovnanian P.E. - 31 Oct 2004 06:53 GMT [snip]
> 3. is there a better alternative i don't know about? Look for a 12V fluorescent fixture. Much lower power consumption for the same light output.
 Signature Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com ------------------------------------------------------------------ Misery loves company, especially this one.
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