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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2004Stupid strut cars
Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? Shocks are about 15 to 20 times cheaper to install. And who needs $1000.00 airbags, when seat belts work just fine ? Newfangled, easily crunchable JUNK ! > Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Newfangled, easily crunchable JUNK ! Lemme take a wild guess here... You attempted to replace the struts on your Saturn and things didn't go exactly as planned? > > Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You attempted to replace the struts on your Saturn and things > didn't go exactly as planned? No, but I might get it done in the spring, if I feel I cant handle it properly. Shocks, no problem, but even with proper tools and info, struts are a time consuming pain in the butt + the required alignment afterward. All well, I will keep restoring my truck, which is much cheaper and easier to keep on the road. Just what *is* the advantage of struts on a non-performance car ? A teeny amount of weight less ? > No, but I might get it done in the spring, if I feel I cant handle it > properly. Shocks, no problem, but even with proper tools and info, struts > are a time consuming pain in the butt + the required alignment afterward. > All well, I will keep restoring my truck, which is much cheaper and easier > to keep on the road. Just what *is* the advantage of struts on a > non-performance car ? A teeny amount of weight less ? Less parts. Instead of two control arms, two balljoints, shocks, spring, bushings, ... you have one control arm, one balljoint and one strut assembly with the shock & spring. They have to align the front end on the assembly line anyway... Assembly line time is big money - if they can save 5 minutes per car on assembling the front end x 200,000 cars, that's a lot of $. So, yeah, it really has nothing to do with performance or servicing. Not too many performance cars come with struts - although I think the Boxster does... Other than the alignment, they're not that hard - unless removing seized up shock bolts is your idea of a good time. Ray > Just what *is* the advantage of struts on a non-performance car? Easier (cheaper) manufacture of the front suspension components Easier (cheaper) factory installation of the front suspension assembly More compact packaging >No, but I might get it done in the spring, if I feel I cant handle it >properly. Shocks, no problem, but even with proper tools and info, struts >are a time consuming pain in the butt + the required alignment afterward. >All well, I will keep restoring my truck, which is much cheaper and easier >to keep on the road. Just what *is* the advantage of struts on a >non-performance car ? A teeny amount of weight less ? Proper tools make the job go much faster. ------------- Alex You should be able to do the struts yourself, then get an alignment. At least on my car I don't even need to use a spring compressor to do tha back ones, so I should at least try to do those (when the time comes). I also think air bags are a waste of money. I'd also add anti-lock brakes and a few other federally mandated things. ||You should be able to do the struts yourself, then get an alignment. Or align it yourself. I don't generally align mine when I change struts, unless it indicates a need after a little driving. In fact, I haven't had an alignment done by a shop in 10 years. ||At least on my car I don't even need to use a spring compressor to do ||tha back ones, so I should at least try to do those (when the time ||comes). You can buy a strut spring comrpessor for $30. Might also need an impact wrench for the top nut. ||I also think air bags are a waste of money. Maybe, but I want my loved ones in a car that has 'em. || I'd also add anti-lock ||brakes ABS has some benefits. The ABS on my '94 F150 does not work. Did not concern me until I had to make an emergency lane-change while braking. The back end came around pretty quickly, enough to catch me off-guard. With ABS that would not have happened. Luckily the other vehicle corrected in time to give me my lane back. Texas Parts Guy >Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? For the same reason they do most things. It's cheaper to build em with struts because they can get rid of several other parts you would need to have if it just used shocks. >Shocks are about 15 to 20 times cheaper to install. > >And who needs $1000.00 airbags, when seat belts work just fine ? > >Newfangled, easily crunchable JUNK ! -- Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts: "What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789 > >Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? > > For the same reason they do most things. It's cheaper to build em > with struts because they can get rid of several other parts you would > need to have if it just used shocks. Thanks ! I dont like it, but what you said makes sense. > Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Newfangled, easily crunchable JUNK ! Ah, but a strut and strut bearing replaces the upper control arm and ball joint, so that's two bushings and a ball joint that you won't have to replace. Win some, lose some. I don't really think it's that big a deal overall, might be a little more expensive but overall probably not much. A strut type suspension also allows more room for stuff in the engine bay, which IMHO is a Good Thing :) The fact that Porsche uses struts shows that they don't negatively impact handling, at least in normal street use... I do agree with you on airbags though, I'm fairly happy without them. If I had the choice, I probably wouldn't pay the extra for them on a new car, as I can't remember the last time I moved a car more than 10 feet without a seatbelt on. Well, actually, yes I can - I picked up an old car in Philly for a friend and it didn't *have* seatbelts. That was maybe 2-3 years ago. nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel A strut type suspension also allows more room for stuff in the > engine bay, which IMHO is a Good Thing :) Gotta disagree, there. Those big strut towers invade WAY into the engine space. Of course, I'm used to torsion-bar front suspensions that put the spring underneath the car and can completely eliminate the intrusion caused by a coil spring (look under the hood of a Mopar and compare it to a similar vintage Ford or GM or a strut setup). >Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? Cost and packaging efficiency. You can eliminate some suspension parts by using struts. Strut suspensions also tend to take up less space. >Shocks are about 15 to 20 times cheaper to install. That's abit of an exageration. I doubt it is more than twice the price. >And who needs $1000.00 airbags, when seat belts work just fine ? Side curtain airbags have been shown to help in accidents. Front airbags have been shown to kill smaller people. >Newfangled, easily crunchable JUNK ! Crunchable is generally good. That is usually a sign of controlled energy dissipation. Exactly what you want in a car accident. ------------ Alex > >Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these days ? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That's abit of an exageration. I doubt it is more than twice the price. The non-dealer ( tire shop ) quoted me about $800 in Ohio to do just the front the struts on a Saturn, and wont install the struts I already bought ( and said thats cheaper than a hospital bill ). I got the struts cheap enough for name brand. Maybe I will do it very slowly and carefully in the spring, but if I do, will also buy a better spring compressor, so I can do it safer. ( and keep my hands clear of where the spring will let go, if the spring compressor(s) slips ). Progress = a pain in the butt, sometimes. > The non-dealer ( tire shop ) quoted me about $800 in Ohio to do just the > front the struts on a Saturn, and wont install the struts I already bought [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Progress = a pain in the butt, sometimes. If you're worried about the whole thing coming apart, do what I do with coil springs and struts - wrap a chain around the spring and through a hole in the frame. (Don't forget to bolt the ends of the chain together.) That way, even if the crappy spring compressor comes off (seen it happen) you still prevent the spring from launching anywhere. Ray > > The non-dealer ( tire shop ) quoted me about $800 in Ohio to do just the > > front the struts on a Saturn, and wont install the struts I already bought [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ray Thank you Ray !!! :-) >> >Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these >> >days [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Progress = a pain in the butt, sometimes. $800 to do *JUST* the fronts?......find a different shop. Local shop here....front end specialist 30 years experience... 94 Sundance... front struts, both half-shafts, both front hub bearing sets, both tie rod ends, and a 4 wheel alignment, $130 labor total. He quoted me today, $110 labor to put in 4 new ball joints check the U- Joints and do an alignment on my truck... SignatureAnthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email > >> >Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these > >> >days [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > He quoted me today, $110 labor to put in 4 new ball joints check the U- > Joints and do an alignment on my truck... WOW !!! I will check around ! > >> >Why do so many car manufacturers make cars that require struts these > >> >days [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Local shop here....front end specialist 30 years experience... > 94 Sundance... front struts, both half-shafts, both front hub bearing > sets, both tie rod ends, and a 4 wheel alignment, $130 labor total. > > He quoted me today, $110 labor to put in 4 new ball joints check the U- > Joints and do an alignment on my truck... Is this a repair business or a building in someone's back yard?.. With labor rates in this area, $130 is less than two hours labor. The Lexus dealer is at $100/hr, Range Rover is higher, and even the local Ford - Case - New Holland (farm tractors and equipment) dealer is $78/hr. Regards, Jim > -- > Anthony [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Remove sp to reply via email smile4camera@bellsouth.net wrote in news:1104078076.860135.115980 @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > Is this a repair business or a building in someone's back yard?.. With > labor rates in this area, $130 is less than two hours labor. The Lexus [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jim It's a legitimate shop, been in business in that location for over 20 years. He stays covered up because he does excellent work for a reasonable price. Unlike most repair businesses, he isn't out to gouge anyone, or get rich. SignatureAnthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email > smile4camera@bellsouth.net wrote in news:1104078076.860135.115980 > @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > It's a legitimate shop, been in business in that location for over 20 > years. He stays covered up because he does excellent work for a > reasonable price. Unlike most repair businesses, he isn't out to gouge > anyone, or get rich. The price you quoted sounded low enough that, to me, it sounded like someone who wasn't worried about paying overhead.. many times that's someone who's wrenching 'on the side' (after normal shop hours) or someone working in their driveway (or a building in their backyard). Overhead meaning building rent or mortgage payment, tool costs, equipment payments, etc.. In this case, 20 years in the same location probably means that much of his equipment is already paid off, perhaps owns the building and land, and doesn't have much overhead to worry about before being able to take money out of the business. Good for him. What is his labor rate compared to other local repair shops? Regards, Jim smile4camera@bellsouth.net wrote in news:1104089742.407147.132720 @c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > The price you quoted sounded low enough that, to me, it sounded like > someone who wasn't worried about paying overhead.. many times that's [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jim He owns the building and the land, clear and free. He usually pays cash for any new equipment he buys. I don't know if he actually *has* an hourly rate. You tell him what you need done...or he diagnoses it, and he gives you a price. There are a few local shops like this, some newer, some about the same age. Some charge high-dollar rates (the newer ones, usually). I don't know what those rates are, as I either do it myself, or have Greg do it. I do know his prices beat the hell out of any of the 'chain' repair places, and I get good, solid, known quality work. SignatureAnthony You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make better idiots. Remove sp to reply via email > smile4camera@bellsouth.net wrote in news:1104089742.407147.132720 > @c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > I do know his prices beat the hell out of any of the 'chain' repair > places, and I get good, solid, known quality work. Sounds like he's got a nice setup going.. giving the customer the bill has never been a fun part of the business for me.. but there is rent to pay, tools and equipment, salaries, utilities, and I'd like to take some money home myself. If you have enough people working for you, and enough work, you _can_ make a pretty penny doing this sort of thing. I couldn't do the work you quoted for that price.. Regards, Jim >The non-dealer ( tire shop ) quoted me about $800 in Ohio to do just the >front the struts on a Saturn, and wont install the struts I already bought [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Progress = a pain in the butt, sometimes. Are Saturn struts different than those on other cars? I've done struts on a few cars and the following compressor has worked fine: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=3980 It comes with safety hooks, so unless you so something really stupid, you should be fine. Had it not been so much more expensive, I would have preferred to buy http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47890 . That would have made the job go faster. -------------- Alex |
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