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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2005LaCrosse vs LaSabre
Presently have a 98 LaSabre which has been an excellent car. However, it is known that some models of the 3800 V6 engine have had severe problems when the plastic manfolds decompose or begin to leak coolant into the crankcase. Buick seems to shuffle its feet, look at the sky, and claim 'the dog did it'? Is the problem solved now, or is the dog still doing it? I just want to know the status. Here is the email and link I sent to Buick: http://www.buick.com/contact/email/ ''I sent an earlier email about the weaknesses in the 3800 engine. I have received no answer. It is well known that there has been a weakness in some of those engines. It has to do with plastic manifolds disintegrating due to heat passing through a tube which was a poor job of engineering. This is well known to serious mechanics and automotive buffs. Has this defect been eliminated from the new models? This message will be posted on newsgroup rec.autos.tech, and your answer, or lack of it, will be noted on the net.'' Does anyone know the status of this problem? Any opinions on the LaCrosse? I'm not aware of the 3800 having this problem, but GM's smaller V6s (3.1, 3.4) definitely have had chronic problems of exactly this nature anything's possible from General "Mark of Excrement" Motors. I've crossposted your query to alt.autos.gm, which may get you more replies, faster. > Presently have a 98 LaSabre which has been an excellent car. However, it is > known that some models of the 3800 V6 engine [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Does anyone know the status of this problem? Any opinions on the LaCrosse? > I'm not aware of the 3800 having this problem, but GM's smaller V6s (3.1, > 3.4) definitely have had chronic problems of exactly this nature > anything's possible from General "Mark of Excrement" Motors. I've > crossposted your query to alt.autos.gm, which may get you more replies, > faster. I wonder if HLS actually expected to get a response from such an antagonistic email. If he did, he's a fool. H > > Presently have a 98 LaSabre which has been an excellent car. However, it is > > known that some models of the 3800 V6 engine [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > > > Does anyone know the status of this problem? Any opinions on the LaCrosse? > I wonder if HLS actually expected to get a response from such an > antagonistic email. Good question. I certainly never expected (and never got) a response to my e-mail to the Fram people asking if their oil filters would stop sucking sh.t now that the company had been bought by Honeywell. > Good question. I certainly never expected (and never got) a response to my > e-mail to the Fram people asking if their oil filters would stop sucking > sh.t now that the company had been bought by Honeywell. When customers ask pointed questions the first time and get no response, a little antagonism is certainly in order. I have no need to get asskissy with Buick. The oil filter issue is a hard one. I also surveyed, very tactfully, some of the oil filter manufacturers (and got nothing) and some of the oil formulators (and got a bit more, but nothing scientifically meaningful). I wish someone would do as good a job wringing out the oil filter issues as was recently posted on air filters. I made a search about the effects of ultrasmall particles in motor oil, since their detrimental effects and the ability of some filters to remove them are two factors often touted by the filter sellers. Nowhere could I find a scientific study of the effects of these particles. I know it has been done (Southwest Research, maybe, in San Antonio) but the exact documents seem to be sheltered. >>Good question. I certainly never expected (and never got) a response to my >>e-mail to the Fram people asking if their oil filters would stop sucking [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > little antagonism is certainly in order. I have no need to get asskissy > with Buick. I think you need to approach everything with the correct level of expectations. No car maker is going to tell you, upon request, every example of their engineering designs that are causing them trouble in the field. No product maker is going to do that, up until the point where they legally have to do so under a recall or similar initiative. That doesn't mean they're being "dishonest," it means they're protecting proprietary performance information. And don't think for a millisecond that your beloved Asian car-makers don't play close to the vest with their own engineering shortcomings either. Try to get Toyota to admit that their PCV systems were crap and caused thousands of engines to be replaced under warranty and many others at owners' expense. Try to get Honda to admit that their mid-90s ignition systems were crap and that thousands failed. Both of those are well-known and acknowledged shortcomings in the gearhead community (such as these newsgroups) but neither ever quite made it to the "recall" level and so the companies involved are mute. Same with GM and their intake manifolds. Finding out THAT sort of information is, as it has always been, the responsibility of the buyer. >> I wonder if HLS actually expected to get a response from such an >> antagonistic email. > > Good question. I certainly never expected (and never got) a response > to my e-mail to the Fram people asking if their oil filters would stop > sucking sh.t now that the company had been bought by Honeywell. Wrong way around, Dan. AlliedSignal took over Honeywell. http://www.forbes.com/2001/07/23/0723honeywell.html  SignatureTeGGeR? > I wonder if HLS actually expected to get a response from such an > antagonistic email. If he did, he's a fool. > H I got a kick out of that too. "Your response or lack thereof will be published on the net..." indeed! I don't care if I was at the most buyer-supportive company in the world, if I got an E-mail like that I'd laugh my head off as I hit the "delete" key. > > I wonder if HLS actually expected to get a response from such an > > antagonistic email. If he did, he's a fool. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > buyer-supportive company in the world, if I got an E-mail like that I'd > laugh my head off as I hit the "delete" key. 'Laughing their heads off' and avoiding the engine issues are a couple of the reasons that American automobile manufacturers have lost market share and have little credibility left. Your strategy is certainly working.....for Japan> >>>I wonder if HLS actually expected to get a response from such an >>>antagonistic email. If he did, he's a fool. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Your strategy is certainly working.....for Japan> My point is that *ANY* company representative would laugh and throw away a combative note like that. As they should. > I wonder if HLS actually expected to get a response from such an > antagonistic email. If he did, he's a fool. > H Well, I'm definitely not a fool, but I am certainly antagonistic. I asked some questions via the Buick link, and they were ignored. Now I just trying to needle them a bit. > I'm not aware of the 3800 having this problem, but GM's smaller V6s > (3.1, > 3.4) definitely have had chronic problems of exactly this nature > anything's possible from General "Mark of Excrement" Motors. I've > crossposted your query to alt.autos.gm, which may get you more > replies, faster. Yes, it is/was a very common problem with the Generation II 3800 engine. The lower manifold has been revised and is "reputed" to be better. Only time will tell. The new GenIII engine now has eliminated the plastic upper plenum....so this will no longer be an issue. Though the intake manifold gaskets on the 3800 do disintegrate over time....but certainly not at the rate of the 60 degree v-6's. All the manufacturers have their problems...which is what keeps technicians hard at work. Certainly wouldn't want them to make them so good that we'd be standing around all day. Ian > > I'm not aware of the 3800 having this problem, but GM's smaller V6s > > (3.1, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Ian This was the kind of answer I would have hoped Buick would have been honest enough to provide. Thanks, Ian. Certain models of the 3800 were pretty nearly bulletproof. Others were not. The 98 LeSabre we drive is possibly one of the riskier engine configurations, but it has not failed. Buick chose not to recall the afflicted engines and repair the problem, but rather waits to see if they will fail and if they can avoid warranty repairs. I like many things about the Buick, and was impressed by their overall reliability standing in the market...a year or two ago it was second only to Lexus. Have you seen the LaCrosse, and if so what do you think about it? I have not yet seen it, was impressed by the specs of the new engine, but would not buy one of these high output jobs until I feel better about their reliability. > I like many things about the Buick, and was impressed by their overall > reliability standing in the market...a year or two ago it was second only to > Lexus. Why would you think Buick's reliability is any better than Pontiacs? For the most part the cars are built out of the same basic parts, assembled on the same or similar production lines, by interchangeable workers, working under the same management structure. As far as I know the only "reliability" difference between the two is the advertising. Of course I think this is also the main reason why people think Lexi (or Toyotas for that matter) are so reliable. Ed > > I like many things about the Buick, and was impressed by their overall > > reliability standing in the market...a year or two ago it was second > > only to Lexus. > > Why would you think Buick's reliability is any better than Pontiacs? Why, because Condemner Retards magazine *says* so, of course! Same as they said the Toyota Tercel was _vastly_ more reliable than the Geo Prizm, despite both cars being made of identical parts at the same facility in California, and only the badging being different. They've given vastly different ratings to identical-except-for-nameplates cars on a fairly regular basis over the years. Just one more reason to dismiss their self-proclaimed expertise. >>>I like many things about the Buick, and was impressed by their overall >>>reliability standing in the market...a year or two ago it was second [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > regular basis over the years. Just one more reason to dismiss their > self-proclaimed expertise. IIRC, the Prizm is identical to the Corolla, not the Tercel, and both scored well above average in reliability ratings. >> Same as >> they said the Toyota Tercel was _vastly_ more reliable than the Geo [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > IIRC, the Prizm is identical to the Corolla, not the Tercel, and both > scored well above average in reliability ratings. Correct. The Tercel had always been made in Japan. Stern may be referring to the Chevrolet Nova, an earlier NUMMI product that was also basically the same as the Corolla of the time. One reason for the apparent discrepancy in Consumer Reports repair records for different nameplates with identical mechanicals is the ownership base. CR has said this themselves. The younger/poorer/stupider the owners, the worse the repair record. SignatureTeGGeR? > > Why, because Condemner Retards magazine *says* so, of course! Same as > > they said the Toyota Tercel was _vastly_ more reliable than the Geo [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > on a fairly regular basis over the years. Just one more reason to > > dismiss their self-proclaimed expertise. > IIRC, the Prizm is identical to the Corolla, not the Tercel, and both > scored well above average in reliability ratings. Sorry, I meant "Corolla". And the rating difference was in a 4-way car comparison "test". >>I like many things about the Buick, and was impressed by their overall >>reliability standing in the market...a year or two ago it was second only to >>Lexus. > > Why would you think Buick's reliability is any better than > Pontiacs? Because, for one thing, a much higher percentage of Buick products are sold with the Buick 3800 engine instead of the Chevy 3.4. That right there is enough to skew things in Buick's favor. Apart from that, my general impression is that the Buick-specific parts on the cars themselves (interior controls, handles, storage, trim, etc. are much better designed than Pontiac or (especially) Chevrolet interior bits. You gotta remember that GM has allowed actual, measurable engineering differences to exist between its divisions FAR longer than the other American automakers did. Buick, Cadillac (Northstar), and Chevrolet *still* produce different engine designs although they're in non-overlapping sizes for the most part. It wasn't all that long ago that Oldsmobile and Pontiac were still in that mix as well. "Back in the day" GM built 4 completely non-related engines in the 7+ liter class: Chevy 454 (junk), Buick 455 (excellent performance engine), Pontiac 455 (quirky like most Pontiac designs), Oldsmobile 455 (excellent torque engine), and Cadillac 472 (most rugged of the lot), and at least 3 non-related engines in the 5.x liter class (Chevy 350, Buick 350, Olds 350). There are still vestiges of that division separation today. > Have you seen the LaCrosse, and if so what do you think about it? Yet another McRent-a-car from GM. Adequate but mediocre in virtually every category. And its name means "masturbation" in Quebec. > > Have you seen the LaCrosse, and if so what do you think about it? > > Yet another McRent-a-car from GM. Adequate but mediocre in virtually every > category. And its name means "masturbation" in Quebec. Consumer Reports is not an organization that I have very much faith in, to be quite honest... they have touted trash for years, with 'data' to support their position. Some automotive magazines have tested various models for years and have published frequency of repair data, type of repair, percentage of dealer repairs deemed satisfactorily completed, etc. How a company and its affiliated dealerships deal with repairs can defuse a multitude of issues. Some GM dealerships, particularly Buick and Cadillac that I know of, used to get really dark marks from GM if they did not handle the customers issues well. Maybe other dealerships and companies do the same. I know of a local Toyota dealership that gets rave reviews from its clients because (1) the Toyotas seldom cause troubles, and (2) the dealership doesnt let the occasional trouble escalate to a major issue. Whether Cadillac workers can put together a better car from GM parts than Pontiac workers is an interesting but unplumbed hypothesis. The facts seem to be that the American companies have drastically lost home market share, and clients perceive some foreign cars to be better, more dependable, and certainly more desirable than the domestic offering. Perception is a good as reality in many cases. > Yet another McRent-a-car from GM. Adequate but mediocre in virtually every > category. And its name means "masturbation" in Quebec. Final post, I hope. This site might be of some interest. http://www.autooninfo.net/ The Canadian Automobile Club (caa.ca) also has some interesting opinions. Pajero, in a South American dialect, means 'masturbater'. 'Murano' depending on the pronounciation (marano) might be confused with a 'hog'. Some of these names are just catalysts for a thread of their own. > I'm not aware of the 3800 having this problem, but GM's smaller V6s (3.1, > 3.4) definitely have had chronic problems of exactly this nature > anything's possible from General "Mark of Excrement" Motors. I've > crossposted your query to alt.autos.gm, which may get you more replies, > faster. The 3.1/3.4 have one problem, the 3.8 has another and only certain years of the 3.8 were affected from what I've read. The *specific* problem with the 3.8 was that the EGR gasses (hot!) were routed through a small pipe that in turn passed through the intake maifold and gasket right next to a water jacket. The manifold upper plenum (plastic) and/or gasket would warp and distort from the heat, breaking the seal and sending DexCool straight into the oil pan. Classic example of a screwed-up design on a $2.00 part wrecking a lot of otherwise rugged and well-designed engines (something you can't say about the 3.1/3.4 engines, which pretty much stink in all aspects.) The "fix" for the 3.8 is a smaller diameter EGR tube that leaves an insulating gap between itself and the surrounding manifold and gasket material preventing the distortion. > Presently have a 98 LaSabre which has been an excellent car. However, it is > known that some models of the 3800 V6 engine > have had severe problems when the plastic manfolds decompose or begin to > leak coolant into the crankcase. Also be aware that GM had some of these V-6 engines that had a plastic nipple that sits under the alternator between the banks. It hooks to a bypass hose that connects from it from the water pump. When these decide to "go", you will lose all of your coolant in about 10 seconds. Not a pleasant thought if it is -5 degrees and you are in BFE. The GM replacement nipple is made of steel. It is not too hard (or expensive) to replace but the peace of mind is well worth it. Something to think about if you have one of these "older" engines. Well, whereas my first polite message to Buick went unanswered, my second one did get a response. The customer service person was gracious, if typically 'politically correct'. This is the answer I received: Dear Mr. ***, Thank you for contacting Buick again. We apologize for any inconvenience to you. General Motors has and will continue to manufacture safe vehicles that meet or exceed all federal regulatory requirements and our own stringent internal safety requirements in performance and vehicle features. For changes and updates to the 3800 Series engines, please check with your local dealer. To contact your local dealership's Service Department directly, you may utilize the GM BuyPower web site to locate the participating dealership nearest to you. Please go to www.gmbuypower.com and select "Locate Dealer" under the Power Tools section. You will then be prompted to enter the division and a city and state or zip code. This will locate the five nearest dealerships in the area that you have requested. You may choose the dealer you would like to contact by clicking on the name of the dealer. We hope that this information answers your questions. If you need additional information or have further questions, please let us know via email or by calling Buick at 1-800-422-8425, between 8:00 AM-11:00 PM Eastern Time, seven days a week. Again, thank you for contacting Buick! Sincerely, Ann ********** Customer Relationship Manager Buick **** The dealership shop foreman simply answered that there had been 'no recall issued on these (earlier) engines'. hls, I have a 2000 Impala with the 3800 Series II engine. We had the problem that you are talking about. It is the bypass tube for the antifreeze. It is kind of an "L" shaped "plastic" tube that goes right into the manifold. It gives no warning. When it goes, it goes. My car only had 50,000 miles on it when the tube cracked. Antifreeze gushed out, not just a little leak like a bypass hose would do. >Presently have a 98 LaSabre which has been an excellent car. However, it is >known that some models of the 3800 V6 engine [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Does anyone know the status of this problem? Any opinions on the LaCrosse? |
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