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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / February 2005

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why do car engines get noisier with age?

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Usual Suspect - 15 Feb 2005 07:56 GMT
why do car engines get noisier with age?
Lawrence Glickman - 15 Feb 2005 08:22 GMT
>why do car engines get noisier with age?

Noisy engine? It might be "piston slap"
by Jim Kerr

Knock, knock, knock, knock. No it's not the neighbour at the door.
It's the disturbing sound of piston slap coming from your car or
truck's engine. Is it a problem? Maybe - it depends on whom you talk
to. During the last couple of years, I have had hundreds of inquiries
about piston slap. Let's look at what causes the knock, and why it is
much more common now than in the past.

In simple terms, piston slap occurs when the piston is forced rapidly
against the side of the engine cylinder wall. The more clearance
between the piston and cylinder wall, the louder the knock.
Controlling piston slap is a complex process. Too little clearance
between the piston and the cylinder wall and the parts will score and
fail. Too much clearance and you get a knock. It doesn't help that
usually the piston and cylinder are made of different materials and
have different expansion rates.

Several features are used in piston design to reduce slap. To keep the
piston close to the cylinder yet allow room for expansion, the piston
skirt (the part that slides against the cylinder) is tapered - it is
bigger at the bottom than at the top. The top of the piston expands
more, where the extra clearance is, because of higher heat at the top
of the piston. The bottom always remains close to the cylinder.

Pistons are also made oval shaped. The large part of the piston is
close to the cylinder, while there is clearance on the smaller sides.
As the piston expands, heat is transferred into the smaller sides, so
the piston becomes more round. Thus, the large sides of the piston
always stay close to the cylinder and piston slap is avoided.

There are several other piston features to counter piston slap, such
as offsetting the piston pin position, but I think you get the idea.
Too much clearance between the piston and the cylinder and we hear
that Knock, knock, knock.

In the past, the sound of piston slap meant trouble. Worn cylinders,
damaged piston skirts, or cracked pistons were common causes, and all
meant expensive repairs. Now things have changed.

Engine designs have changed to make them more compact, lighter, with
less internal friction, and higher revving. To do all this, piston
design had to change, and some of the major changes are shorter piston
skirts and straight piston skirts. The short, straight skirts allow
the piston to rock more in the cylinder, and we hear it as piston
slap.

Closer manufacturing tolerances have helped reduce piston clearances
and slap, but some engines need more piston clearance to allow for
piston expansion. During the first few minutes of operation, the
piston can expand several thousandths of an inch, yet clearances are
typically in the one to two thousandths of an inch. Fortunately, the
cylinder also expands, or we would find pistons seized.

On vehicles built in the last decade, piston slap that occurs for a
few seconds on cold start is quite normal. My own vehicle, with only
30,000 km on it has piston slap for about 5 seconds when first started
on a below freezing winter morning. Service information from General
Motors states "A cold Piston knock which disappears in 1.5 minutes
should be considered acceptable". From experience, I have found that
piston slap that occurs only during cold starts and lasts only for a
minute or less causes no problems. Just don't place a load on the
engine until the pistons have expanded and the clearance has been
reduced.

Speaking of clearance, we normally find piston to cylinder clearance
in the .0005 inch to .002 inch range. A human hair is typically about
.002 inches thick, so you can see the clearances are very small. Some
manufacturers are using special coatings on piston skirts to reduce
friction. This enables them to reduce clearances even less and prevent
piston slap. Ford V8 overhead camshaft engines use coated pistons; so
does the Corvette Z06 high performance engine, as well as other
manufacturers.

A good example to show the advantages of coated piston skirts is the
Corvette. Clearance specifications for the coated pistons are from
minus .001 inch to plus .001 inch. You read correctly; minus
clearances! The piston is actually larger than the cylinder on the
skirt sides of the piston. That coating has to be slippery! As the
engine warms up, expansion in the cylinder block gives more clearance.

The correct engine oil can help reduce slap. Good oil takes up some
clearance and is not easily scraped off the cylinder wall during cold
starts. Sometimes, changing oil brands or viscosity can reduce a cold
start piston slap.

If you suspect your piston slap is excessive, then there is an easy
method to locate which cylinder has the problem. Before starting the
engine, remove one spark plug wire and short it to the engine block.
When the engine is started, that cylinder has less pressure pushing
the piston sideways. If the knock changes, or is gone, then that is
the cylinder with the problem. If the knock is still there, try
another cylinder at the next cold start. It takes a little time, but
it is much better to locate where the problem is before disassembling
the engine.

So is piston slap a problem? Not for most engines built in the last
decade and if the noise is there only for a few seconds during cold
start. If the knock is in an engine of older design, the knock
continues, or it is there during acceleration, then engine work is in
the future. The worst part about piston slap is trying to explain that
a cold start knock on newer vehicles can be normal, especially when
you try to sell your vehicle!

Jim Kerr is a master automotive mechanic and teaches automotive
technology. He has been writing automotive articles for fifteen years
for newspapers and magazines in Canada and the United States, and is a
member of the Automotive Journalist's Association of Canada (AJAC).
Lawrence Glickman - 15 Feb 2005 08:33 GMT
>why do car engines get noisier with age?

http://www.pistonslap.com/
Lawrence Glickman - 15 Feb 2005 08:52 GMT
>why do car engines get noisier with age?

Using Internet Explorer 5.0 or greater
LISTEN to GM Piston Slap right here

http://www.pistonslap.com/photos.htm

Lg
ray - 15 Feb 2005 16:07 GMT
> why do car engines get noisier with age?

my $0.02... until they're broken, they don't get that much noisier.

However:
the exhaust system starts to rust out and spring pinhole leaks...
aftermarket muffler put on changes the tone...
the underhood insulation falls off (like my Jimmy) and the engine
appears to get louder.

For a typical car, it's a gradual thing where the parts that are "wore"
but not broken all add up to a noisy engine:

fuel injectors,
a bearing in one of the pulleys,
the power steering pump,
a pinhole exhaust leak,
the underhood insulation ripped out,

and so on... combined together it makes for a "loud" sound instead of a
"nice" mechanical sound.
Dan_Thomas_nospam@yahoo.com - 15 Feb 2005 18:59 GMT
       Piston slap is rare. There's .004" clearance in my Ford 300 and
they don't slap. Slapping is more common when piston skirts crack and
collapse.
    Engines get noisy mostly because of valve train noise. Lifters
don't take up clearances properly, valves wear into the seats and stick
when they get hot, guides get crudded up and make the stem sticky, and
so on.
     Exhaust manifolds develop leaks that sound like sticky lifters.
Belts squeak. Pumps rattle. In extreme cases, piston pins or main and
rod bearings will clunk. There are plenty of noise sources.

  Dan
Daniel J. Stern - 15 Feb 2005 20:47 GMT
>         Piston slap is rare.

Piston slap is very common, and is growing commoner as automakers try to
use hypereutectic pistons *and* keep parts and assembly cost at a bare
minimum at the same time.
Steve - 15 Feb 2005 21:16 GMT
>>        Piston slap is rare.
>
> Piston slap is very common, and is growing commoner as automakers try to
> use hypereutectic pistons *and* keep parts and assembly cost at a bare
> minimum at the same time.

Double-whammy: hypereutectic pistons in short-skirt, high-pin
configurations.
Lawrence Glickman - 15 Feb 2005 21:18 GMT
>        Piston slap is rare.

It seems to be the rule rather than the exception on GM vehicles.
do visit www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.

Including the lawsuits against GM,
and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
miles is *normal*

I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.

Lg

> There's .004" clearance in my Ford 300 and
>they don't slap. Slapping is more common when piston skirts crack and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>   Dan
Nate Nagel - 15 Feb 2005 22:36 GMT
>>       Piston slap is rare.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Lg

I dunno if it's piston slap or something else, but there's something at
work that makes every V-6 from the 2.8/3.1 family sound like utter and
complete shite.  They're kinda like cockroaches though, they must last
at least a while, because I sure see/hear enough of them.

On the flip side, Ford seems to have figured out how to make an engine
sound sweet, even if it isn't truly fast.  I can't remember the last
time I heard a bad-sounding V-8 Mustang.

nate

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http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Lawrence Glickman - 15 Feb 2005 23:14 GMT
>>>       Piston slap is rare.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>nate

I bought a $25,000 Fix Or Repair Daily, for a _hefty_ discount because
it was a low mileage dealer demo and last year's model.  I am a
satisfied customer.  My engine, you can hardly hear it with the hood
up and standing right in front of it.

An associate of mine bought a GM SUV in the High $30's, very high
$30's, I am guessing $36 thousand plus, and my engine sounds better
than his does, and his is brand new.  I bet the reason his SUV sounds
like a truck, is because it -is- a truck, and a piston-slapping GM.

Add to that the 1.5 minute *NORMAL* piston slap at warm-up according
to General Motors, and I would have put my checkbook back in my pocket
and gone looking for something else, better, at 1/2 the price ( which
is what I paid ).

Look at what GM has to say about their shakey engines in the TSB's at
www.pistonslap.com.  Their own words!

1) I'll never buy a =brand= new vehicle, it is a total waste of money
IMO

2) I'll never buy a GM vehicle, unless it's being given away at
wholesale ( dealer cost ).

My car does have its flaws ( which I have yet to encounter ).
heater cores clog up, but this can be forestalled with backflushing it
trannys are known to be very sensitive to the mix.  Mercon V only, or
say goodbye to it.

Other than that, nothing a can of WD-40 can't fix.

Lg
Dan_Thomas_nospam@yahoo.com - 16 Feb 2005 00:38 GMT
>I dunno if it's piston slap or something else, but there's something at
>work that makes every V-6 from the 2.8/3.1 family sound like utter and

>complete ^$#@#&&*.

            Solid lifters in the Ford 2.8, at least. A German design.
Got to adjust them just like in the good old days.

        Dan
Ted Johnson - 17 Feb 2005 20:57 GMT
>> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>> miles is *normal*

Got a URL for that?  I'd like to check it out.

-Ted
Lawrence Glickman - 17 Feb 2005 20:49 GMT
>>> and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>>> miles is *normal*
>
>Got a URL for that?  I'd like to check it out.
>
>-Ted

Somebody mentioned I left out a "5"
as it should read 7500 miles not 700 miles.

Any go to www.pistonslap.com for all the sordid details.  You can
click on the items on the left of your screen to read some interesting
excuses and rationalizations from GM, amongst other things.

There are even photos taken with a borescope to show the excessive
wear in the cylinder sleeves from all this piston wobble.  Seems hard
to believe this is happening in this day and age.

Lg
Spud Demon - 16 Feb 2005 01:44 GMT
Lawrence Glickman <Lawrence_Glickman@comcast.net> writes in article <blp411l4c2ide92mlstm96m8qkpur6o7ol@4ax.com> dated Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:18:17 -0600:
>Including the lawsuits against GM,
>and the LAME TSB's from GM that state adding 4 quarts of oil ever 700
>miles is *normal*

7500, I think you dropped a 5.

-- spud_demon -at- thundermaker.net
The above may not (yet) represent the opinions of my employer.
Steve - 16 Feb 2005 16:55 GMT
>>       Piston slap is rare.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I'll keep my FORD, thanks anyhow.

To be fair, Ford had piston-slap and high oil consumption problems on
the Modular v8 series *years* before GM had it. And for the same
reasons- too hard to maintain the .002 max clearance tolerances needed
by hypereutectic pistons in a mass-production environment. Ford is using
coated pistons now, and have the problem down to the proverbial "dull
roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a few
years ago.
Lawrence Glickman - 16 Feb 2005 17:47 GMT
>>>       Piston slap is rare.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a few
>years ago.

I had another Mercury before this, a Tracer, which sounded like a tank
compared to this Mercury Sable.  It handled like one also.  If there
was a pebble in the road you felt it if you drove over it.

This Ford/Lincoln/Mercury product has a much kinder and gentler ride
to it.  I'm not sorry I bought it, =yet=.  Doesn't burn any oil at all
as far as I can tell.  And is quiet, comfortable to drive.

There are better vehicles around, but I don't have the money for them.
There are plenty of worse ones around also.  The difference between
the Sable and the Tracer is with the Sable you arrive at your
destination without feeling banged-up, bruised, and exhausted.  And
road noise and engine noise can stress you out on any trip.  Maybe
that's why the put the engines in the -back- of busses instead of the
front.

Lg
Stan Kasperski - 16 Feb 2005 20:21 GMT
>>>       Piston slap is rare.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> roar" instead of the millions of screaming buyers that it was a few
> years ago.
I have one of the very early modular engines (built 9/'91) in my '92
Grand Marquis. It is, by far, the quietest engine I have ever owned.
When I bought it with 113k miles, it did consume oil, but after
replacing the valve stem seals, it doesn't consume noticeable oil even
now at 213k miles.  Dual exhaust, no noise, no vibration, no piston
slap, merely very smooth.
Stan K.
Steve - 16 Feb 2005 23:24 GMT
>>>>       Piston slap is rare.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> slap, merely very smooth.
> Stan K.

People just do NOT understand production tolerance problems, it seems.
Of course, many THOUSANDS of them ran perfectly! The problem was that an
unacceptably large percentage of them were assembled out-of-tolerance,
and had piston slap and/or swilled a quart of oil every 600 miles. The
fact that thousands of others run over 200,000 miles without a hiccup
doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist! It just means that its a
PRODUCTION problem, not an inherent DESIGN problem.
Lawrence Glickman - 17 Feb 2005 01:46 GMT
>>>>>       Piston slap is rare.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist! It just means that its a
>PRODUCTION problem, not an inherent DESIGN problem.

And there is also something called a "Friday Car."  The day of the
week it was assembled used to matter before robots came along to do
all the work.  Now I think humans do a minimal amount of assembly,
like attaching wiring harnesses, _maybe_, otherwise everything has
been automated on the assembly lines.  So there should be NO
production anomalies at _all_.  Every car should be exactly the same
as the one before it and the one after it.

Lg
ray - 17 Feb 2005 16:53 GMT
> People just do NOT understand production tolerance problems, it seems.
> Of course, many THOUSANDS of them ran perfectly! The problem was that an
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> doesn't mean that the problem didn't exist! It just means that its a
> PRODUCTION problem, not an inherent DESIGN problem.

It's both.  If you're designing parts and don't take into account
production tolerances.... you're gonna end up with crappy results.

Just because your new design makes 10 more horsepower or weighs 10
pounds less means nothing if it costs the company $100 extra to assemble
it and it's impossible to repair.

(Even robots on assembly lines can go out of spec.)

I guess it comes down to the same stuff like in computers:
is 99% good enough?  99.9?  99.999?
1 million engines with 95% problem free: 50,000 "bad" engines.
1 million engines with 99% problem free: 10,000 "bad" engines.
1 million engines with 99.9% problem free: 1,000 "bad" engines.
It all depends who's in charge - the beancounters - and how much money
it costs to go that extra mile... because I'm sure the cost to go from
99% to 99.9% isn't a nice linear graph...
Steve - 15 Feb 2005 19:24 GMT
> why do car engines get noisier with age?

Parts wear, clearances (gaps) between parts get wider. Modern engines
are often much more susceptible to increased noise as they get older
because they use things (for example) like short "slipper" pistons that
tend to rock in the bores more than older long-skirt pistons. The
benefit being less friction and better efficiency, at the cost of more
noise as the wear takes clearances to the ends of the tolerance range.
ajeeperman@comcast.net - 20 Feb 2005 06:44 GMT
probably because we get fatter and the only way they can complain about the
extra weight is to make some noise.
hehehe
old john

> why do car engines get noisier with age?
James C. Reeves - 21 Feb 2005 00:52 GMT
> why do car engines get noisier with age?

I've not noticed older engines becoming noisier...unless a exhaust leak
develops.  I have a 1997 Grand Caravan that is as quiet and as smooth
running as the day I bought it nearly 8 years ago.
David Jory - 22 Feb 2005 01:35 GMT
> why do car engines get noisier with age?

I have a theory as to 1 reason why cars get noisier with age.  I think
that some noise-deadening material becomes less effective with age.
Possibly by settling/compacting or maybe absorbing moisture.  Is this
possible/likely?

David Jory
Nate Nagel - 22 Feb 2005 01:45 GMT
>>why do car engines get noisier with age?
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> David Jory

Well, I know that I drove my '55 stude around my friend's place
yesterday without the big rubber cowl seal in place (I had to repair the
horn wire down the column... whatta PITA job - I actually ended up with
enough of the car disassembled that I just pulled the instrument panel
with the whole front wiring harness so I could troubleshoot some other
problems.  Yes, I hotwired it.) and I could distinctly hear every single
valve tick from the driver's seat :)

nate

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replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
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Steve - 22 Feb 2005 16:18 GMT
>>why do car engines get noisier with age?
>
> I have a theory as to 1 reason why cars get noisier with age.  I think
> that some noise-deadening material becomes less effective with age.
> Possibly by settling/compacting or maybe absorbing moisture.  Is this
> possible/likely?

Its possible. Weatherstripping shrinks and wind noise gets worse, for
example. But most sound-deadening material doesn't really deteriorate
much if any with age.
Rudy Hiebert - 22 Feb 2005 17:37 GMT
> > why do car engines get noisier with age?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> possible/likely?>
> David Jory

It's a fact that the wear points, clearnances are tighter in new
engines. Now comes the real story: people don't realize the importance
of using superior engine lubes and filters to keep the engine clean
from contaminants. Always getting the bargain oil and filters comes
home to roost and people wonder why their car's engine sounds like
it's ready to "give up the ghost".

The people in my previous thought also don't realize how important it
is to protect the engine from wear during the first couple of minutes
when the majority of the wear happens. This is especially true of the
freezing weather most of areas north of California experience.
Synthetics makes significant progress in doing this but until the
average uninformed narrow minded car owner, noisy engines will be one
characteristic that will keep making money for the non-synthetic oil
sellers. Is it possible that they don't want to educate them?
Steve - 22 Feb 2005 18:25 GMT
> The people in my previous thought also don't realize how important it
> is to protect the engine from wear during the first couple of minutes
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> characteristic that will keep making money for the non-synthetic oil
> sellers. Is it possible that they don't want to educate them?

I agree that synthetic oils are good. However, there are now a number of
"conventional" hydrocracked oils on the market that perform BETTER than
a lot of the synthetics out there in terms of wear metal accumulation-
the best measure of actual engine protection. It pays to keep abreast of
oil technology, as it tends to evolve much faster than automotive
technology. Its only been in the past few years that a few carmakers
have made ANY significant changes in mechanical design at the level of
the bearings, ring packs, piston clearances, etc. since the early 1960s
(and those changes that have been made are fairly minor), but oil
technology has reinvented itself many times in that same span.
 
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