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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / February 2005

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ELECTRICITY/FUEL?

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Lkwhite - 25 Feb 2005 06:51 GMT
88 MUSTANG LX, 2.3l, MANUAL TRANS.
With the IGN. switch on, engine off, the fuel pump runs continously.
What turns the fuel pump off after the initial pressure builds up?
I replaced the fuel pump relay and the eec relay, the fuel pump still runs
continously. Checked the fuel pressure at the test port, pressure is
constant 42 PSI with pump operating. Replaced the starter relay just in
case. The fuel pump still runs continous with the IGN. switch on. engine
off. PLEASE HELP!
Billy Bad Assr? - 25 Feb 2005 07:21 GMT
> 88 MUSTANG LX, 2.3l, MANUAL TRANS.
> With the IGN. switch on, engine off, the fuel pump runs continously.
> What turns the fuel pump off after the initial pressure builds up?

Is that an issue?  try turning the key switch to the OFF position!
...or use the accessories switch position -- (ACC) what, are you stupid!!!!

What is it that your trying to accomplish?

> I replaced the fuel pump relay and the eec relay, the fuel pump still runs
> continously. Checked the fuel pressure at the test port, pressure is
> constant 42 PSI with pump operating. Replaced the starter relay just in
> case. The fuel pump still runs continous with the IGN. switch on. engine
> off. PLEASE HELP!

....check the loose >NUT< behind the wheel!!!!!

BBA
Steve - 25 Feb 2005 17:01 GMT
Billy Bad Assr© wrote:

>>88 MUSTANG LX, 2.3l, MANUAL TRANS.
>>With the IGN. switch on, engine off, the fuel pump runs continously.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> What is it that your trying to accomplish?

Apparently he's not the stupid one here.  Fuel pumps are not supposed to
run continuously UNLESS the engine is also running. Its a safety issue
in case of an accident that ruptures fuel lines- you do NOT want the
electric fuel pump continuing to pump out fuel if you're unconscious and
the car is smashed but the ignition is still on. That's what
auto-shutdown relays are for, and that's where I'd start looking for the
problem.
Billy Bad Assr? - 25 Feb 2005 19:39 GMT
> >>88 MUSTANG LX, 2.3l, MANUAL TRANS.
> >>With the IGN. switch on, engine off, the fuel pump runs continously.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > What is it that your trying to accomplish?

> Apparently he's not the stupid one here.  Fuel pumps are not supposed to

He's not! >> Are you absolutely sure?!

Then for what reason did he replace the fuel pump relay and the EEC relay?
<grin>

> run continuously UNLESS the engine is also running. Its a safety issue

It is >> that's new to me!!

> in case of an accident that ruptures fuel lines- you do NOT want the
> electric fuel pump continuing to pump out fuel if you're unconscious and
> the car is smashed but the ignition is still on. That's what
> auto-shutdown relays are for, and that's where I'd start looking for the
> problem.

Unfortunately that's NOT it -- cause you have no idea as to what you are talking
about!

BBA
Steve - 25 Feb 2005 21:26 GMT
Billy Bad Assr© wrote:

>>run continuously UNLESS the engine is also running. Its a safety issue
>
> It is >> that's new to me!!

I'm absolutely NOT surprised.

> Unfortunately that's NOT it -- cause you have no idea as to what you are talking
> about!

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight......
Comboverfish - 25 Feb 2005 07:50 GMT
> 88 MUSTANG LX, 2.3l, MANUAL TRANS.
> With the IGN. switch on, engine off, the fuel pump runs continously.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> case. The fuel pump still runs continous with the IGN. switch on. engine
> off. PLEASE HELP!

Now that you've received an ASSENINE answer from BBA, let me try and
actually help.

Your ECA controls the ground side of the fuel pump relay with a Tan/Lt
Green wire.  This ground signal should turn off after one second of
energization of the FP relay if the ECA doesn't detect any engine RPM.
Furthermore, it will open the FP relay on a running engine if the RPMs
drop below about 100.

As you found out, replacing the relays did nothing to fix your problem.
None of them can fail in such a way as to cause the FP to operate ONLY
with the key on while keeping the FP on constantly.  You most likely
have a inoperative timer circuit inside the ECA or you could have a
shorted Tan/Lt Green wire to the FP relay.

Turning off the FP with engine off is done for safety and FP wear
consideration.  Especially if your FP isn't shutting off when the
engine dies.  I would recommend you DO fix the problem.

BTW, is this something that happened recently or has your Mustang
always done this?

Toyota MDT in MO
HLS - 25 Feb 2005 19:02 GMT
Well, I have another silly question...
If he turns the switch on, the pump would normally run until some minimum
acceptable pressure level were obtained, wouldn't it, even if it takes
longer
than the default time?  Is 42 psi about right for this car?

Would the fuel pressure regulator bypass to tank at this pressure?
Steve - 25 Feb 2005 19:18 GMT
> Well, I have another silly question...
> If he turns the switch on, the pump would normally run until some minimum
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Would the fuel pressure regulator bypass to tank at this pressure?

I don't know for sure how that car works, but I know that a lot of cars
don't cycle the pump based on fuel pressure at all. in such vehicles,
the pump runs a preset time interval when you first turn on power, then
stops if the engine isn't running regardless of fuel rail pressure. When
the engine starts cranking, the pump comes back on and runs until either
you turn the engine off or the engine controller stops seeing sync
pulses from the cam and crank sensor (stalled engine). The fuel pressure
regulator just holds a constant fuel pressure and returns excess fuel to
the fuel tank.
The Hurdy Gurdy Man - 26 Feb 2005 01:51 GMT
> You most likely have a inoperative timer circuit inside the ECA
> or you could have a shorted Tan/Lt Green wire to the FP relay.

I wouldn't think it's a separate circuit controlling the fuel pump
priming time when the key is switched to the on position.  More likely
would be the CPU in the fuel computer (which I think is still an EEC-IV
for the smaller engine Mustangs of that year, but I could be wrong as
my familiarity is pretty much limited to the V-8s) has actual programming
to turn the fuel pump on and off.  That makes more sense from a computer
hardware/software design standpoint, since the computer likely needs
fuel relay power access and inserting a one second cycle time in code
is an easy task in any programming language, even assembly.  

> Turning off the FP with engine off is done for safety and FP wear
> consideration.  Especially if your FP isn't shutting off when the
> engine dies.  I would recommend you DO fix the problem.

Agreed, although in an accident there's an inertially activated switch
at the back of the Mustang that will trip and cut power to the fuel pump
whether the engine control computer wants it turned off or not.  Still,
that problem needs fixing.

I'm not near my factory manuals to check if it's a valid theory or not,
but going on the assumption that the CPU in the engine control computer
is what's keeping the fuel relay circuit energized, maybe there's some
sort of external input feeding the computer that is triggering some
predefined condition to keep the circuit energized?  As an example I know
to be true, I have a 1993 Chevy truck that, if it is reading oil pressure
even when the engine isn't running, will turn on the fuel pump.  Seems
strange, but I found that one out the hard way once.  I had the key set
at the on position so the gauges would work, and was spinning the oil
pump with a drill to prime the system and see what pressure level was
reached.  As soon as it came up above a couple of PSI, the fuel pump
kicked in and spooged gas all over my hand, which was inconveniently
located next to the fuel line which had been disconnected from the
throttle body.  So in the case of that vehicle, erroneous data from the
oil pressure sensor could activate the fuel pump even with the engine
turned off.  I'm not saying that's the actual case in your situation,
but I'm wondering if it's a possibility.  Do you have any other strange
behavior in your car?  Bad gauge readings?  Possible shorted wires?
Comboverfish - 26 Feb 2005 04:18 GMT
> > You most likely have a inoperative timer circuit inside the ECA
> > or you could have a shorted Tan/Lt Green wire to the FP relay.
>
> I wouldn't think it's a separate circuit controlling the fuel pump
> priming time when the key is switched to the on position.  More likely
> would be the CPU in the fuel computer

The ECA is what Ford called its EEC-IV computer on that car, so you are
infact agreeing with me.  My post was of factual information, not a
guess...

Toyota MDT in MO
 
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