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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / December 2006

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1998 Rav4-PO401 code

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George  Ganann - 18 Apr 2005 15:25 GMT
My Rav4 has a PO401 code (insufficent EGR flow). I have change the EGR,
Vacuum modulator and VSV, still has same code. I have run diagnostics on
EGR, vacuum modulator and vsv, all test out and are working fine. Why and
more importantly WHAT is sending a false signal to indicate insufficant
flow? Could it be a faulty O2 sensor at the catalytic convertor. Please
respond if you know the answer, I am not going to change an O2 sensor on a
hunch.
rickbenites@hotmail.com - 18 Apr 2005 17:46 GMT
George, it may be a cloged EGR passage.  

   Rick
George  Ganann - 18 Apr 2005 18:12 GMT
The passages are not blocked. I checked the intake and exhaust passages as
well as the exhaust tube from exhaust manifold to EGR valve, all clear. I
also cleaned the throttle body.
Comboverfish - 18 Apr 2005 23:11 GMT
> The passages are not blocked. I checked the intake and exhaust passages as
> well as the exhaust tube from exhaust manifold to EGR valve, all clear. I
> also cleaned the throttle body.

I've read both posts so I do infact know what you replaced and tested.
That said, here is some info on your EGR system you won't find in any
book.

Toyota's early 4 cyl. OBDII EGR detection often incorrectly labeled an
excessive EGR flow condition as "P0401 EGR flow insufficient".  The
typical cause of excessive flow was a failed VSV (blue plastic VSV with
two hose fittings under the intake manifold) -- even though the typical
code set was P0401.

Did you replace the VSV with a new one?  EGR VSVs test good most of the
time.  What happens is the VSV will intermittantly fail on the road,
then start working again, making testing difficult.

The best thing to do is to Tee a vacuum gauge into the vac hose to the
EGR valve.  With a warm running engine, snap accelerate the engine to
2k - 3k RPMs and hold it there.  You should see the gauge jump off of
zero and hold somewhere around 5" - 10" (rough guess based on throttle
angle).  Then the needle should drop immediately to zero by itself as
you are maintaining RPMs.  This drop indicates the ECM is controlling
EGR venting properly via the VSV.  The fact that there is controlled
vacuum present initially indicates that your vacuum circuits and
modulator work properly.

Finally, hook a hose up to the EGR valve and apply full vacuum at idle.
The engine should die or atleast almost die.  A common cause of P0401
especially on the newer Toyotas (*actual* insufficient flow) is a
carbon buildup between the valve and intake port/mounting boss.

You mentioned something about an O2 sensor.  This system uses the MAP
sensor for EGR diagnostics, probably exclusvely.

Toyota MDT in MO
Shep - 19 Apr 2005 00:41 GMT
Great explanation, for info purposes, how does the map calculate expected
egr, I would think egr flow would dilute the mixture at a given throtttle
angle, the air flow would have to increase to maintain speed, so the pcm
assumes egr flow?

>> The passages are not blocked. I checked the intake and exhaust
> passages as
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Toyota MDT in MO
Comboverfish - 19 Apr 2005 02:21 GMT
> Great explanation, for info purposes, how does the map calculate expected
> egr, I would think egr flow would dilute the mixture at a given throtttle
> angle, the air flow would have to increase to maintain speed, so the pcm
> assumes egr flow?

Well, the ECM looks at the MAP sensor voltage by breaking it down into
bits and monitoring very small pattern fluctuations that are compared
to a map of relational data in ECM memory.  It is fairly easy for it to
detect the pressure change that occurs when the EGR valve is (supposed
to be) open.  It expects a small pressure rise in the manifold when a
volume of gas enters at near or above atmospheric pressure like
recirculated exaust gas does in an EGR system.

Alternately, I seem to remember GM using the O2 sensor on some of their
pre OBDII cars to determine EGR functionality.  It was probably due to
using a MAF sensor instead of a MAP sensor on those vehicles in
question, but it could have been engineering preference.

Toyota MDT in MO
Shep - 19 Apr 2005 13:35 GMT
Thanks, good info, you are right about GM using the o2 sensor.

>> Great explanation, for info purposes, how does the map calculate
> expected
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Toyota MDT in MO
George  Ganann - 19 Apr 2005 16:51 GMT
Thanks for the additional information. Finding good, complete diagnostic
proceedures for this car has been a real challenge.I grew up in a shop, my
dad was a master mechanic. But when all the computerized gadgets started
show up on cars, I kind of quit fooling with them. Computers at that tiome
were cost prohibitve unless you owned a shop. Now that scan diagnostic
equipment has gotten more reasonable I that I'd give it one more try.
Thanks again for the information, if you know where I can obtain good
factory diagnostic proceedures please let me know.

George
George  Ganann - 19 Apr 2005 16:53 GMT
Thanks for the additional information. Finding good, complete diagnostic
proceedures for this car has been a real challenge.I grew up in a shop, my
dad was a master mechanic. But when all the computerized gadgets started
show up on cars, I kind of quit fooling with them. Computers at that time
were cost prohibitive unless you owned a shop. Now that scan diagnostic
equipment has gotten more reasonable I thought that I'd give it one more
try. Thanks again for the information, if you know where I can obtain good
factory diagnostic proceedures please let me know.

George
Shep - 19 Apr 2005 18:19 GMT
You could by a 1 year subscription to Alldata, on line complete info
including TSB's and trouble shooting charts
> Thanks for the additional information. Finding good, complete diagnostic
> proceedures for this car has been a real challenge.I grew up in a shop, my
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> George
meonthenet - 01 Dec 2006 16:00 GMT
>My Rav4 has a PO401 code (insufficent EGR flow). I have change the EGR,
>Vacuum modulator and VSV, still has same code. I have run diagnostics on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>respond if you know the answer, I am not going to change an O2 sensor on a
>hunch.

Hello George, Did you find the culprit? I have the same problem with my 98
Rav4! Can you help me out ? Thanks, Rob
 
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