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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / June 2005A Spark is a Spark is a Spark
I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just put the cheapy AC Delco, because the platinum won't make any difference except possible quicker starts, but not worth the money... Is there any performance difference between copper plugs and platinum? Any suggestions would be appreciated.. RoB. Again more BS, sorry but that's what info like that is, you need plats in that engine, the ign system will eat regular plugs in 15-20 k, stay with GM oe plats, last for 75k, and run great, look at replacing the rear bank, not a fun job every year or so. >I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) >and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > RoB. >I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) >and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just >put the cheapy AC Delco, because the platinum won't make any difference >except possible quicker starts, but not worth the money... Is there any >performance difference between copper plugs and platinum? > Any suggestions would be appreciated.. I agree with your friend. The platinum plugs give you a longer life. Other than that they will do very little for your car. Since you define the engine as a high mileage engine consider how many more miles you realistically plan to put on it before spending the extra money on long life plugs. Steve B. >>I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) >>and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > miles you realistically plan to put on it before spending the extra > money on long life plugs. Not the G-Power. That plug contains a single platinum center electrode. The ground electrode fouls/erodes just like a standard plug. The double platinum "Laser Platinum" is the long-life version. I believe that's what's original equipment in his engine, or at least an AC rebranded version. > I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM > engine (high mileage) and was looking at those NGK G-Power > Plugs but a friend of mine says just put the cheapy AC > Delco, because the platinum won't make any difference except > possible quicker starts, but not worth the money... Is there > any performance difference between copper plugs and platinum? NGK, at www.ngksparkplugs.com, thinks platinums don't help and recommends using them only if the car maker specifies them or if plug access is difficult. Considering that their platinums cost twice as much per mile as their coppers, I doubt NGK has any ulterior motives with this advice. Thanks to strict emissions laws, the EPA has virtually required stock ignition systems to be very good, so improvement is difficult and probably not worth any effort, except for racing purposes. But to avoid incompatibilities it's best to keep the nationalities of the car and plugs identical, except American plugs are more likely to work well with German Chryslers. AC Rapidfire plugs may provide a tiny bit of improvement because of their multiple sharp edges (for less misfire), clipped outer electrode (exposes spark better to combustion gases below), and center electrode core made of a better heat conductor. AC claims 2% better gas mileage, but that's impossible to verify in real life. > I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) > and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > RoB. Performance? No. The idea of platinum is longer life. Actually, there could be a slight performance difference in an engine that tends to burn oil and foul plugs. It is possible with a platinum plug to run it hotter than other plugs. When you run a normal material hotter, it burns and most be replaced (or at least removed and regapped) more frequently. The hotter plug will not foul as easily. The plug must not be run so hot it contributes to preignition or detonation, however. Search out info on spark plug heat range. Your friend is right in that a spark is a spark. However, longevity of plugs is an issue, too. >I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) >and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just >put the cheapy AC Delco, because the platinum won't make any difference >except possible quicker starts, but not worth the money... Is there any >performance difference between copper plugs and platinum? >Any suggestions would be appreciated.. You either have a combustion chamber configuration or compression ratio suitable for platinum plugs, or you don't. If you dont then dont run plat plugs. If the car manufactuers says run plat plugs, then you do have the CC for it and should run them. If you need to run plat plugs it is for longer life requirments of the engine ignition maker, if you dont run them copper plugs will wear too quickly sending the ignition out of normal KV working range. If you dont have the CC for plat plugs and run them, they will more likely partially fail, possibly poor idle, unless, you are running a higher compression ratio as in racing, then plat plugs are suitable, if not desirable. So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use plat plugs. If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean enough such as with racing. If you dont have the CR for them, or dont have the CC for them to keep the plat plugs clean, they will most likely fouled or as we say for plat plugs, contaminated. If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as in racing, then you may need to use coppers to warm the engine, then swap to plats, or you may have trouble starting and dirty a new set of plats starting it. Hope that helps. > You either have a combustion chamber configuration or compression > ratio suitable for platinum plugs, or you don't. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > engine ignition maker, if you dont run them copper plugs will wear too > quickly sending the ignition out of normal KV working range. snip... I was checking the online ac delco spark plug finder for a 98 Buick lesabre 3.8(just bought it used with 170,000km) and i find it recommend iridium.. strange ... because the old plugs i looked at are very old platinum and the gap was way out of spec.. supposed to be .060 i measured .070 some .072 .. i think they are the original spark plugs . So i checked champion site they recommend their platinum or copper plugs.. and NGK say platinum. I find it funny AC Delco would recommend iridium which is twice the price of platinum and platinum is three times of price of copper or nickel. You're right about how tuff it is to get the rear bank of spark plugs out.. barely got my arm behind the engine and stuck a couple of times.. ;-( I was talking to the parts man at UAP and he also said a few interesting things about plugs ,, he said the fine wire platinum will be hotter because the fine tip will not conduct heat away, thus may cause pre ignition where as copper or nickel is a larger base and will conduct heat away better, thus running cooler. If i was to go with platinum he recommend a plug that has what he calls a "button platinum" which is better.. ac and champion has button tip platinum.. > If you need to run plat plugs it is for longer life requirments of the > engine ignition maker, if you dont run them copper plugs will wear too > quickly sending the ignition out of normal KV working range. Sure. GM wanted a 100K mile "tune up". A standard plug should work fine but won't last as long. I hate the term "copper plug" since copper cores are the same in standard, platinum, or iridium plugs. The electrodes are some sort of nickel alloy. There are some applications where a platinum or iridium plug is absolutely necessary. My 1995 Acura Integra spec'ed a 1.3 mm gap and my guess is that a standard plug wouldn't last the 30K miles that they normal give for regular plugs. The platinum plug was spec'ed for 60K miles. >> If you need to run plat plugs it is for longer life requirments of the >> engine ignition maker, if you dont run them copper plugs will wear too [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >copper cores are the same in standard, platinum, or iridium plugs. >The electrodes are some sort of nickel alloy. Copper plugs isnt used as an explicit term, more slang for standard plugs. Names used generally refer to the plating not the core. So long as you know what is refered to is all that matters to the topic.. If you go to the parts store and ask for plat plugs or copper plugs they wont ask you what core you want and will know what you are refering to. >There are some applications where a platinum or iridium plug is >absolutely necessary. My 1995 Acura Integra spec'ed a 1.3 mm gap >and my guess is that a standard plug wouldn't last the 30K miles >that they normal give for regular plugs. The platinum plug was >spec'ed for 60K miles. Longer life is the upside, but the downside is easier to contaminate long before they are "worn" The GM and the Honda obviously both keep them clean enough to last the longer period, not all engines will. > >Sure. GM wanted a 100K mile "tune up". A standard plug should work > >fine but won't last as long. I hate the term "copper plug" since [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Copper plugs isnt used as an explicit term, more slang for standard > plugs. Okay, why don't you explain for us the reason that copper is used in a spark plug? > Names used generally refer to the plating not the core. Do you seriously believe that "copper spark plugs" actually have a copper plating somewhere, and for gods sake, don't tell us it's on one of the electrodes. > So long as you know what is refered to is all that matters to the > topic.. You're side stepping. > If you go to the parts store and ask for plat plugs or copper plugs > they wont ask you what core you want and will know what you are > refering to. Hardly germane to the technical claims that you've made. > >There are some applications where a platinum or iridium plug is > >absolutely necessary. My 1995 Acura Integra spec'ed a 1.3 mm gap [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Longer life is the upside, but the downside is easier to contaminate > long before they are "worn" What happened to compression ratio, combustion chamber design and valve placement? > The GM and the Honda obviously both keep them clean enough to last the > longer period, not all engines will. Oh, do tell, how do GMs and Hondas magically keep spark plugs "clean enough?" >>>Sure. GM wanted a 100K mile "tune up". A standard plug should work >>>fine but won't last as long. I hate the term "copper plug" since [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Okay, why don't you explain for us the reason that copper is used > in a spark plug? I'll explain. It's a copper core inside the insulator that serves as a conductor between the center electrode and the contact. There may also be a resistor somewhere in between to reduce electromagnetic interference that could screw up electronics including radio reception. >>Names used generally refer to the plating not the core. > > Do you seriously believe that "copper spark plugs" actually have > a copper plating somewhere, and for gods sake, don't tell us it's > on one of the electrodes. A copper plating would corrode and and/or erode quickly under such conditions. >>So long as you know what is refered to is all that matters to the >>topic.. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > What happened to compression ratio, combustion chamber design and > valve placement? "Easier to contaminate"? Sheesh. I ran the ND platinums for the 60K miles recommended. When I pulled them out, the platinum tips were clean as whistle. The rest of the electrodes/insulator were heavily oxidized but otherwise intact. Those plugs were probably good for another 60K miles. Some manufacturers spec exotic plugs just for the longevity, while others spec them as a necessary design choice. There are plenty of engines where a platinum plug was chosen for the former and a standard plug works just fine (and may even be a choice in the owner's manual). >>The GM and the Honda obviously both keep them clean enough to >> last the longer period, not all engines will. > > Oh, do tell, how do GMs and Hondas magically keep spark plugs > "clean enough?" Of course this doesn't happen by accident. They carefully choose the plug based on engine design, and pick one that will get hot enough to stay clean. >>>Longer life is the upside, but the downside is easier to contaminate >>>long before they are "worn" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >heavily oxidized but otherwise intact. Those plugs were probably >good for another 60K miles. Try that with your plat plugs in Nagels Studebaker. Just doesnt have the head or valve config to keep the nose clean. Doesnt effect the plat at all, itll work. If you dont have the CR or CC to keep the nose cone insulators of the plugs clean for 60,000K, then it doesnt matter a dick if the plugs are plat or copper, the nose cones will have a conductive coating that the engine is unable to stop from asccumulating on the plugs insulators and they will leak power, the plugs wount be worth shiite at idle. If you dont have the CC to keep the tips clean, a sh.t load of CR will do it. A car with the CC to use plat plugs and be able to keep the insulators clean for 60 to 100,000 can have any plugs fitted, but if you dont fit plat plugs and the maker says fit them, then at the next book service of 60,000 for plugs, the std plugs will be long overdue. You have a car that can run plat plugs for 60,000k and they are clean, to be expected, the car has an engine with a CC that can use plat plugs, and wont dirty them up or contaminate them like an engine that isnt suited to long life plugs will do. If you want another definition to describe "contaminated" Try using some EFI pressure cleaners after you fit new plugs and note it idles like crap. Pull the plugs and look at them. Still look new Fit another set of new ones and it idles fine What you got there in your hand left over is a set of newish / 15 minute old, contaminated plugs, that still look new. Most likely it will warn you of this on the can of EFI pressure cleaner. >>>>Longer life is the upside, but the downside is easier to contaminate >>>>long before they are "worn" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Try that with your plat plugs in Nagels Studebaker. > Just doesnt have the head or valve config to keep the nose clean. You have to bring up an engine that was built before I was born? > Doesnt effect the plat at all, itll work. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > plugs, and wont dirty them up or contaminate them like an engine that > isnt suited to long life plugs will do. Sure - but the fact is that GM didn't change the design of the 3800 Series II engine to take advantage of platinum plugs. They just chose the correct platinum plug for the application, and bumped the "tuneup" to 100K miles along with the Dex-Cool coolant. Most modern engines will run fine on properly chosen platinum or standard plugs. The key is "properly chosen". As for the time interval - anyone who thinks that a standard plug replacing a factory spec'ed platinum plug will last as long will have problems. There are several manufacturers that specify different plug replacement intervals depending on plug type. I do agree that there are a limited number of engines that need an exotic plug to run properly. Toyota Camrys of recent vintage need a dual ground electrode platinum plug. The Honda DOHC VTECs need a wider gap platinum or iridium plug. However - the GM 3800 Series II is not one of them. In that case, platinum was solely a design choice for longevity. In article <9B_qe.3314$jX6.3108@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, > > Okay, why don't you explain for us the reason that copper is used > > in a spark plug? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > interference that could screw up electronics including radio > reception. Well, ummmm... Sorry, there is no answer to the question there. Funny though, Mr. RV hasn't made an attempt. > >>Names used generally refer to the plating not the core. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > A copper plating would corrode and and/or erode quickly under such > conditions. Yes indeed it would. Which has to make one wonder why an 'expert' like Mr. RV would make such a statement. <snip> >In article ><9B_qe.3314$jX6.3108@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Well, ummmm... Sorry, there is no answer to the question there. f.ck off bunghole >Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech [snip] >There are some applications where a platinum or iridium plug is >absolutely necessary. My 1995 Acura Integra spec'ed a 1.3 mm gap >and my guess is that a standard plug wouldn't last the 30K miles >that they normal give for regular plugs. The platinum plug was >spec'ed for 60K miles. I had a motorcycle shop in the '70's. We tried fine wire plugs in a variety of engines, and generally found no improvement in performance, with one exception - my OSSA MAR Trials bike, a tractor- on-two-wheels intended for an obstacle-course game requiring extreme maneuverability, control, and ability to claw your way out of difficult places. OSSA has a Motoplat electronic magneto whose spark output is reversed polarity (positive-going pulse), more difficult to fire. A fine-wire plug gives easier starting and stronger running on this engine. Possibly give some insight into what's going on here? Signal-to- noise ratio in this thread has been awful... Tom Willmon near Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 - Registered > >I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) > >and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > If the car manufactuers says run plat plugs, then you do have the CC > for it and should run them. Absolute rubbish. Neither compression ratio or combustion chamber design dictate whether platinum spark plugs should be used. Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell. > If you need to run plat plugs it is for longer life requirments of the > engine ignition maker, if you dont run them copper plugs will wear too > quickly sending the ignition out of normal KV working range. Actually, miss-firing occurs much before KV limits are reached, miss-fires being a big no-no as far as emissions are concerned. > If you dont have the CC for plat plugs and run them, they will more > likely partially fail, possibly poor idle, unless, you are running a > higher compression ratio as in racing, then plat plugs are suitable, > if not desirable. Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark plug. > So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use > plat plugs. Malarky. > If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then > use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean > enough such as with racing. Double malarky. > If you dont have the CR for them, or dont have the CC for them to keep > the plat plugs clean, they will most likely fouled or as we say for > plat plugs, contaminated. We? > If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all > engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as > in racing, then you may need to use coppers to warm the engine, then > swap to plats, or you may have trouble starting and dirty a new set of > plats starting it. Who invents this crap? > Hope that helps. I don't think it did... >> >I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) >> >and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >used. >Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell. So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic >> If you need to run plat plugs it is for longer life requirments of the >> engine ignition maker, if you dont run them copper plugs will wear too >> quickly sending the ignition out of normal KV working range. > >Actually, miss-firing occurs much before KV limits are reached, >miss-fires being a big no-no as far as emissions are concerned. So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic >> If you dont have the CC for plat plugs and run them, they will more >> likely partially fail, possibly poor idle, unless, you are running a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark >plug. So youre not a qualified motor mechanic and never raced anything but your mouth. >> So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use >> plat plugs. > >Malarky. So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic >> If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then >> use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean >> enough such as with racing. > >Double malarky. So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic >> If you dont have the CR for them, or dont have the CC for them to keep >> the plat plugs clean, they will most likely fouled or as we say for >> plat plugs, contaminated. Yes we motor mechanics like me who are qualified with 24 yrs working experience in the trade. >> If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all >> engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Who invents this crap? Engineers. >> Hope that helps. > >I don't think it did... No surprise its no help to you. >>>>I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) >>>>and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic He's right, you're wrong, get over yourself already. nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>>I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) >>>>>and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >He's right, you're wrong, get over yourself already. You wouldnt know the diff > >He's right, you're wrong, get over yourself already. > > You wouldnt know the diff Earlier, you cited that "engineers said so," or something to that effect. Nate is an engineer, he *would* know the difference. > >> >I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high > >> >mileage) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic Why not... ...apparently you're willing to make some very big assumptions WRT platinum spark plugs and their purpose of use. > >> If you need to run plat plugs it is for longer life requirments of the > >> engine ignition maker, if you dont run them copper plugs will wear too [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic You can assume , but you'd be wrong. > >> If you dont have the CC for plat plugs and run them, they will more > >> likely partially fail, possibly poor idle, unless, you are running a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So youre not a qualified motor mechanic and never raced anything but > your mouth. Wrong again. Then again, no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the basis for explaining something that relates to modern day emissions durability requirements. Tell ya what, I have every major spark plug manufacturers catalog on the shelf, go ahead and cite the maker and catalog page number where *they* recommend using a platinum spark plug in a racing or any other heavy duty application. > >> So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use > >> plat plugs. > > > >Malarky. > > So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic Got anything else? > >> If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then > >> use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So we can assume you are not a qualified motor mechanic Yawn. > >> If you dont have the CR for them, or dont have the CC for them to keep > >> the plat plugs clean, they will most likely fouled or as we say for > >> plat plugs, contaminated. > > Yes we motor mechanics like me who are qualified with 24 yrs working > experience in the trade. Oh. Guess my 35 trumps your 24. ASE Certified Master w/L1, Chevrolet Certified Master, GM Certified Master, Snap-On/Sun Electric Training Manager, Senior referee for the State of Wisconsin IM-240 program. > >> If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all > >> engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Engineers. Hardly. > >> Hope that helps. > > > >I don't think it did... > > No surprise its no help to you. I'll pass on your help. So should others. If you care to explain the physics of your concocted beliefs, have at it. Bear in mind, there are quite a few vehicle applications that have and have had both platinum and non-platinum spark plugs specified by the factory, only difference is model year; same compression ratio, same combustion chamber design, same valve placement. So stop with the pseudo-technical bullshit already. >> >> >I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high >> >> >mileage) [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >basis for explaining something that relates to modern day >emissions durability requirements. Horseshit, youve never raced and havent a clue about it. >Tell ya what, I have every major spark plug manufacturers catalog >on the shelf, go ahead and cite the maker and catalog page number >where *they* recommend using a platinum spark plug in a racing or >any other heavy duty application. Open your eyes for a change. Any vehicle that specifies a plug in the book that is a plat plug. >> >> So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use >> >> plat plugs. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Got anything else? More than you so far. >> >> If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then >> >> use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >GM Certified Master, Snap-On/Sun Electric Training Manager, >Senior referee for the State of Wisconsin IM-240 program. But raced nothin. >> >> If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all >> >> engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I'll pass on your help. So should others. Ill pass on your trolling and lack of any technical points to refute any of what I wrote. Just some idiotic crap about plug catalogues you dont have the sense to read properly. >If you care to explain the physics of your concocted beliefs, >have at it. Make your point or admit your dont have any argument to dispute anythuing I worte, not one line of it. > Bear in mind, there are quite a few vehicle >applications that have and have had both platinum and >non-platinum spark plugs specified by the factory, only >difference is model year; same compression ratio, same combustion >chamber design, same valve placement. >So stop with the pseudo-technical bullshit already. And you dont have the sense god gave the common dog to figure out what that means obviously. 35 yrs on tools, bullshit, youre a child. > >Wrong again. > >Then again, no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the > >basis for explaining something that relates to modern day > >emissions durability requirements. > > Horseshit, youve never raced and havent a clue about it. I'll repeat; no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the basis for explaining something that relates to modern day emissions durability requirements. > >Tell ya what, I have every major spark plug manufacturers catalog > >on the shelf, go ahead and cite the maker and catalog page number [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Open your eyes for a change. > Any vehicle that specifies a plug in the book that is a plat plug. And they are? > >> >> So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use > >> >> plat plugs. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > More than you so far. Not really. All you've offered so far is some techno-babble about combustion chambers and compression ratios. > >> >> If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then > >> >> use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > But raced nothin. And racing proves what again? You're some big shot "racer" so we should all kiss your a.s and swallow whatever bull sh.t offered? Ain't gonna happen. > >> >> If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all > >> >> engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Ill pass on your trolling and lack of any technical points to refute > any of what I wrote. And your technical points can be found where? > Just some idiotic crap about plug catalogues you dont have the sense > to read properly. Picking a spark plug according to application from a manufacturers catalog is "crap" is it? i can see why you have time for all this "racing" nonsense, I'll bet that your mechanicing business leaves you with plenty of free time. > >If you care to explain the physics of your concocted beliefs, > >have at it. > > Make your point or admit your dont have any argument to dispute > anythuing I worte, not one line of it. Again; numerous vehicles have come OEM with both platinum and non-platinum spark plugs with NO combustion chamber re-design and NO compression ratio change. Pretty much blows your 'theories' out of the water. > > Bear in mind, there are quite a few vehicle > >applications that have and have had both platinum and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And you dont have the sense god gave the common dog to figure out what > that means obviously. Sure I do, it means that you're full of sh.t. > 35 yrs on tools, bullshit, youre a child. 'Scuze me? And your 20 years at the local Jiffy-Lube is good for what? >> >Wrong again. >> >Then again, no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >basis for explaining something that relates to modern day >emissions durability requirements. > that relates to modern day emissions durability requirements. Thats just drivel >> >Tell ya what, I have every major spark plug manufacturers catalog >> >on the shelf, go ahead and cite the maker and catalog page number [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >And they are? They two holes in the front of your head stupid. >> >> >> So its CC config (valve postion) or CR fuel that determines if you use >> >> >> plat plugs. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Not really. All you've offered so far is some techno-babble >about combustion chambers and compression ratios. All youve done is troll. >> >> >> If you have the CC that is configured the clean the plug tips, then >> >> >> use them., if you have heaps of CR then the heat will keep them clean [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >swallow whatever bull sh.t offered? >Ain't gonna happen. Too dense. >> >> >> If you have the CC config for plat plugs they are good to go at all >> >> >> engine temps as in standard cars that use them, if you have big CR as [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >And your technical points can be found where? You dispute it, then you prove it or pull your head in dufus. >> Just some idiotic crap about plug catalogues you dont have the sense >> to read properly. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >bet that your mechanicing business leaves you with plenty of free >time. You are so dense you have no concept of the bleed down of technology that came from motor racing. Your are dumber than dogshit no doubt about it. >> >If you care to explain the physics of your concocted beliefs, >> >have at it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >NO compression ratio change. >Pretty much blows your 'theories' out of the water. Pretty much shows youre pig ignorant. >> > Bear in mind, there are quite a few vehicle >> >applications that have and have had both platinum and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Sure I do, it means that you're full of sh.t. Wrong again stupid >> 35 yrs on tools, bullshit, youre a child. > >'Scuze me? >And your 20 years at the local Jiffy-Lube is good for what? We dont have "jiffy lube" here you bunghole. But Id suggest they are more qualified than a mop jockey like you. > >I'll repeat; > >no one in their right mind would use "racing" as the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Thats just drivel That's not an answer. > >> Open your eyes for a change. > >> Any vehicle that specifies a plug in the book that is a plat plug. > > > >And they are? > > They two holes in the front of your head stupid. Another no answer. > >Not really. All you've offered so far is some techno-babble > >about combustion chambers and compression ratios. > > All youve done is troll. No, I called you on your bullshit story. > >And racing proves what again? > >You're some big shot "racer" so we should all kiss your a.s and > >swallow whatever bull sh.t offered? > >Ain't gonna happen. > > Too dense. Another no answer, damn, Dave is on a roll. > >And your technical points can be found where? > > You dispute it, then you prove it or pull your head in dufus. I have proven it. Apparently, it went right over your head. > >Picking a spark plug according to application from a > >manufacturers catalog is "crap" is it? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that came from motor racing. > Your are dumber than dogshit no doubt about it. I understand the concept perfectly, however, it has nothing to do with the claims that you're making and I suspect a lot to do with your lack of answers. > >Again; numerous vehicles have come OEM with both platinum and > >non-platinum spark plugs with NO combustion chamber re-design and > >NO compression ratio change. > >Pretty much blows your 'theories' out of the water. > > Pretty much shows youre pig ignorant. Have someone read that paragraph to you. > >Sure I do, it means that you're full of sh.t. > > Wrong again stupid Maybe you would like to start with the "copper plating." > >> 35 yrs on tools, bullshit, youre a child. > > > >'Scuze me? > >And your 20 years at the local Jiffy-Lube is good for what? > > We dont have "jiffy lube" here you bunghole. Okay, then tell us the name of the quick lube joint that you've been working at in Australia. > But Id suggest they are more qualified than a mop jockey like you. You also suspect that the reference to "copper" in a spark plug is some sort of plating. If I were you, I wouldn't trust my suspicions too far. > Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell. > Racing would be about the worst place to run a platinum spark > plug. I'm a novice and have two questions: 1. Why are platinums bad for racing? I thought that they should be able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at standing high temperatures. 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug. I realize that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not more? >> Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at >standing high temperatures. They are not bad for racing, ignore the pig ignorant trolls in here. I used them in 8 years of racing, cars, karts and motorcycles.. >2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard >of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not >more? Because of finer parmaeters of fuel and ignition control that exist on modern cars. A small amount out of spec and some show it more than others, the most common complaint being poor idle. Rule of thumb I run NGK in any Jap machine, car or bike. Bosch in any Euro wogmobile. Mess with that rule any you'll find some dont idle so well. I wouldnt put anything but a Bosch plug in a Beemer for example. Yank cars and our local product here (based on Yank cars, Ford and GM) dont give much of a sh.t what brand you use so long as the rating is right. In article <1118589263.539728.18900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, > > Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at > standing high temperatures. The higher pressures inside the combustion chamber can and do cause the platinum to fall off. It's not a solid platinum core, the platinum is but a small piece fused to the center and ground (in the case of double platinum) electrode. Racers tend to NOT want bits of foreign metal floating around inside their engines. If an engine appears to run better on a platinum spark plug, it really only is a case of [it] covering up a different problem that has gone undiagnosed and/or unrepaired to begin with. This last part is where I believe "RV" is coming from. > 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard > of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything > but NGKs are installed in them, and one person had a VW Golf that ran > funny with anything but a certain Bosch silver core plug. Many times, other brands of replacement spark plugs are close but not quite exactly the same as what the OEM designed and installed. This is why sticking to what came in it from the factory will get you in less trouble than anything else. Spending some time with a stack of spark plug catalogs can be quite revealing; one part number fits various heat ranges in one brand where numerous part numbers cover those same applications when looked up by specific OEM applications. It's nothing more than inventory slight of hand... > I realize > that modern ignition systems can monitor spark performance and make > adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not > more? Timing is adjusted, fuel is adjusted but the spark itself is not adjusted. The spark can be monitored for whether or not it occurred and complete combustion took place (miss-fire detection) but that's about it. > In article > <1118589263.539728.18900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > that has gone undiagnosed and/or unrepaired to begin with. > This last part is where I believe "RV" is coming from. The quality of the plug can make a difference. I've heard bad things about Bosch platinum plugs in Japanese cars. Something about the superthin platinum electrode buried flush with the insulator melting away. NGK and Denso seem to have the highest quality platinum plugs. Besides - lots of weekend racers like to swap out their wear parts/fluids often. A standard plug will probably survive a few race weekends and would be cheap to replace. >>2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard >>of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > occurred and complete combustion took place (miss-fire detection) > but that's about it. Once the rotor hits the point, what else can be done? Of course my current car has a distributorless ignition system. >> In article >> <1118589263.539728.18900@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >insulator melting away. NGK and Denso seem to have the highest >quality platinum plugs. Same applies for bikes, always used NGK In article <cJ_qe.3126$hK3.1943@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, > > The higher pressures inside the combustion chamber can and do > > cause the platinum to fall off. It's not a solid platinum core, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > insulator melting away. NGK and Denso seem to have the highest > quality platinum plugs. Bosch platinum plugs should be avoided no matter what the application, Japanese, Euro or domestic. > Besides - lots of weekend racers like to swap out their wear > parts/fluids often. A standard plug will probably survive a > few race weekends and would be cheap to replace. Agreed 100% > >>2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard > >>of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Once the rotor hits the point, what else can be done? Of course > my current car has a distributorless ignition system. There may be some new things in the future, but for now, not much... >In article ><cJ_qe.3126$hK3.1943@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Bosch platinum plugs should be avoided no matter what the >application, Japanese, Euro or domestic. Bullshit Youve never seen a European car let alone worked on one. >> Besides - lots of weekend racers like to swap out their wear >> parts/fluids often. A standard plug will probably survive a [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >There may be some new things in the future, but for now, not >much... For you all there will be is more vomit to mop up. > >Bosch platinum plugs should be avoided no matter what the > >application, Japanese, Euro or domestic. > > Bullshit > Youve never seen a European car let alone worked on one. Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? <snip> > For you all there will be is more vomit to mop up. You were going to tell us about the "copper plating." >>2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard >>of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > when looked up by specific OEM applications. > It's nothing more than inventory slight of hand... so if your car happens to be fussy about plug temperature then Brand X is dead on, but brand Y happens to cover too big of a range and you end up with fouled plugs? I guess that one ISN'T an old mechanic's tale. :) Ray >>> 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard >>> of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ray The VW Beetles (original beetles) were hard on plugs. The first platinum plugs I ever saw were used in them. An air cooled engine goes through wider temperature swings than a water-cooled one. If one used a hotter plug to overcome fouling in a beetle when the head was cooler, it wouldn't last long, especially when CHT went high. The platinum plugs would handle a higher CHT without affecting longevity as much. > > Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at > standing high temperatures. They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine as a stressed member of the chassis, basically bolting the rear suspension and body work to it instead of having a frame. This design meant that you had to disassemble the whole car to change the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could go a whole season on one set without changing them. > 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard > of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > adjustments, but shouldn't that make them less fussy about plugs, not > more? I know that the Fiero DIS systems will not run properly on the platinum plugs for more than a few thousand miles before the plugs are junk. Other cars seem to work just fine on them. JazzMan Signature********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry ********************************************************** > They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by > Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the plugs, so the platinum plugs were developed so that they could > go a whole season on one set without changing them. Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application that breaks he rule... But thanks for pointing out that it was for longevity reasons and NOT some mish-mosh about combustion chambers and/or compression ratio. I have vivid memories of watching the 917s race at Road America in the early 70s... > > 2. Why are some cars really fussy about the type of plugs? I've heard > > of Hondas starting to run funny after a few hundred miles if anything [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the platinum plugs for more than a few thousand miles before > the plugs are junk. Other cars seem to work just fine on them. Including double platinum Delco or Autolite plugs? > > They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by > > Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Including double platinum Delco or Autolite plugs? My experience has been that none of the platinum plugs last in the Fiero DIS application. JazzMan Signature********************************************************** Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net. Curse those darned bulk e-mailers! ********************************************************** "Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry ********************************************************** AAR, sorry I got you into this, used plain ole Auto lite A22's in my 64 Max wedge,for an entire season, used to chanfe them from guilt, 400 runs! 12.5:1 CR for real. >> They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by >> Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Including double platinum Delco or Autolite plugs? > AAR, sorry I got you into this, used plain ole Auto lite A22's in my 64 Max > wedge,for an entire season, used to chanfe them from guilt, 400 runs! 12.5:1 > CR for real. Don't be sorry Shep, this reminds me of a few years back when Dean Dardwin was spewing his bullshit in the Chevy truck groups. I run NGK BPR6ES's in my 340 and like you, change them out of guilt for lack of a better reason.. Got another 340 on the stand, TRW 12:1 pistons, it's getting Edelbrock open chamber heads as soon as I find a buyer for the TA heads that are on it. Should yield a CR of 11.3:1 which is right on the edge for 93 octane pump gas. Cool, AAR, the higher compression can be tolerated with a little more cam overlap and a looser convertor, I forget about the "pseudo" Deano. It will fun to street tune your engine, can't hear detonation, though, with open headers. Lots of plug reading going to go on here. >> AAR, sorry I got you into this, used plain ole Auto lite A22's in my 64 >> Max [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > heads that are on it. Should yield a CR of 11.3:1 which is right > on the edge for 93 octane pump gas. > Cool, AAR, the higher compression can be tolerated with a little more cam > overlap and a looser convertor, I forget about the "pseudo" Deano. It will > fun to street tune your engine, can't hear detonation, though, with open > headers. Lots of plug reading going to go on here. Ix-nay on the looser convertor, this engine is going in my AAR which is a 4 speed. Couple of years ago I redid the 4 speed and installed a gear set from a mid 60s 273 4 speed, that got me a 3.09:1 first gear instead of the 2.44:1 that came stock. Basically the old super stock trick... Wide ratio set first thru third... First gear is now like it was back when I had 4.56:1 rear gears, instead of the 3.55:1 in there now. Up until September, I was running headers with 3" pipes out the side where the stock tips exited (similar to the race A53 cars in 70) TOTALY brutal it was, 10 minutes and you wanted to heave. had to wear ear plugs if you went anywhere. Stock exhaust is back on now, just gotta pull the manifolds, sandblast 'em and re-coat 'em before heading to Carlisle next month. Todays project was setting up a 70 440 6bbl 'cuda. I overhauled the carbs 5 years ago, it's now just first getting to be driveable. When I did the carbs I told him the price included the final tweaking needed once the engine was back in and running. Little did I know it would be 5 years later! This thing was running pig rich, 4 of 8 cylinders firing shorted from the carbon on the center insulator, at first I thought they blew the power valve from a backfire on start up, power valve tested okay though. Vacuum at idle due to the cam he chose was around 9-10"hg., hmmm... Pulled the center carb, usually the Holley kits come with a 6.5 power valve, turns out I used NAPA rebuild kits which come with a 7.5. Swapped in a 4.5 and things are running much better, with decent gas numbers. Oh, did I mention that this thing had headers on it? Got some real neat 4th degree blisters to pop tonight. He nailed it leaving the shop tonight... Put 'er sideways right downtown.... ;-) >> Cool, AAR, the higher compression can be tolerated with a little more cam >> overlap and a looser convertor, I forget about the "pseudo" Deano. It [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > back on now, just gotta pull the manifolds, sandblast 'em and > re-coat 'em before heading to Carlisle next month. Carlisle PA? > Todays project was setting up a 70 440 6bbl 'cuda. > I overhauled the carbs 5 years ago, it's now just first getting [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Oh, did I mention that this thing had headers on it? > Got some real neat 4th degree blisters to pop tonight. LOL, them damn headers get hot REALLY fast > He nailed it leaving the shop tonight... > > Put 'er sideways right downtown.... ;-) Damn it Neil, sounds like yer just havin' too much fun at work. I think you should close up shop and get one of them high paying factory jobs!! Bob > > Stock exhaust is > > back on now, just gotta pull the manifolds, sandblast 'em and > > re-coat 'em before heading to Carlisle next month. > > Carlisle PA? Yup, that one. 35th reunion for the MoPar TransAm cars. > > Oh, did I mention that this thing had headers on it? > > Got some real neat 4th degree blisters to pop tonight. > > LOL, them damn headers get hot REALLY fast They sure do! And being a green engine, lots of heat from everything else. > > He nailed it leaving the shop tonight... > > > > Put 'er sideways right downtown.... ;-) > > Damn it Neil, sounds like yer just havin' too much fun at work. I think you > should close up shop and get one of them high paying factory jobs!! Had a factory job for 6 years, grinding crankshafts for outboard motors (the black ones) never again. > Had a factory job for 6 years, grinding crankshafts for outboard > motors (the black ones) never again. I worked for Whormel for a couple years. I'd sooner starve than go back their. Bob >> They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by >> Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application >that breaks he rule... Glug glug glug, and down you go to the bottom like a stone. > >Well, ya know there's always going to be one obscure application > >that breaks he rule... > > Glug glug glug, and down you go to the bottom like a stone. You can wish in one hand, and sh.t in the other... >>They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by >>Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > NOT some mish-mosh about combustion chambers and/or compression > ratio. I do agree that the large majority of the platinum or iridium plugs spec'ed by manufacturers is for the longevity for both emissions and marketing purposes. It also helps with V engines where the back plugs can be a real PITA to reach. BTW - back to the copper thing - apparently one reason for copper cores is that copper conducts heat exceptionally well, and the core will help to transfer heat from the center electrode. There are a few car models that only spec these oddball double ground platinum electrode plugs. I think the larger gap and hotter spark of my '95 Integra GS-R engine might have resulted in premature erosion of standard nickel-alloy electrodes (i.e. before the standard Honda 30K change period). But it's not as if a suitable standard plug isn't going to work - just not a standard interval. I've heard of weekend racers deliberately going with standard plugs in cars factory spec'ed for plats. Of course I'm not trying to lend any creedence to our fou mouthed friend. :-) >>>They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by >>>Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >Of course I'm not trying to lend any creedence to our fou >mouthed friend. :-) "Friend" my hairy bunghole. Get off the crack pipe, your pal dufus pissed on my post to the OP without provocation and got told to f.ck, rightly so. His post bashing my advice to the OP is still there, youre in denial. Of my qualified advice, keep worthless options to yourself and you wont rightfully get told to f.ck off. Quite obvious that these few turds with their attitude dont have any freinds anytime here or anywhere else. Up to 1999 I'd spent years in this group answering questions to those who came here daily, not once did I ever have some arse clowns like you try to heap sh.t on any of my advice. Never had anyone back then stupid enough to leap on my replies to original posters here and claim I am wrong with nothing to back it up.. Never had anyone so far up themselves in here they couldnt simply give their own advice to the OP and resist playing hall monitor trying to correct the advice given by others. A fact we know, only people who feel a need to do that are people who obviously dont beleive in their own advice given and have to bash the advice of others to sound credible themselves, they are anything but credible. So whats changed in 5 yrs. Now we have small children with internet access on cable, knob fisting serial pests like your buddies here. Think they you know something but they know sh.t so they roam around groups arguing about that which they have no knowledge of, just to get attention. Ask them why the feel the urge to do it an all we will get is a load of piss weak excuses from them. > >Of course I'm not trying to lend any creedence to our fou > >mouthed friend. :-) > > "Friend" my hairy bunghole. Fixation. > Get off the crack pipe, your pal dufus pissed on my post to the OP > without provocation and got told to f.ck, rightly so. > His post bashing my advice to the OP is still there, youre in denial. > Of my qualified advice, keep worthless options to yourself and you > wont rightfully get told to f.ck off. Your advice is "qualified" because you're a "racer?" > Quite obvious that these few turds with their attitude dont have any > freinds anytime here or anywhere else. You're projecting. > Up to 1999 I'd spent years in this group answering questions to those > who came here daily, not once did I ever have some arse clowns like > you try to heap sh.t on any of my advice. Maybe up to 1999 you hadn't posted anything quite so ridiculous. > Never had anyone back then stupid enough to leap on my replies to > original posters here and claim I am wrong with nothing to back it > up.. Well Dave, I was right here in 1999 and for years before, so maybe your memory is as frail as your knowledge of spark plugs. > Never had anyone so far up themselves in here they couldnt simply give > their own advice to the OP and resist playing hall monitor trying to > correct the advice given by others. Of course, your demands that you must be right because you are a "racer" aren't 'so far up yourself.' > A fact we know, only people who feel a need to do that are people who > obviously dont beleive in their own advice given and have to bash the > advice of others to sound credible themselves, they are anything but > credible. So go have a nice cry. > So whats changed in 5 yrs. > > Now we have small children with internet access on cable, knob fisting > serial pests like your buddies here. Or, maybe there are a number of people here who flat out disagree with your claims and feel compelled to correct you. > Think they you know something but they know sh.t so they roam around > groups arguing about that which they have no knowledge of, just to get > attention. You must be the only person who knows something. The burden must be enormous. > Ask them why the feel the urge to do it an all we will get is a load > of piss weak excuses from them. Actually, I haven't seen you ask that question yet. >>They aren't bad for racing. In fact, they were developed by >>Porsche for the 917-30 race program. The 917-30 used the engine [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > NOT some mish-mosh about combustion chambers and/or compression > ratio. Certainly people who have added aftermarket forced induction and more powerful igntion systems to compensate. I don't think it ncessitates the use of platinums, although I suppose the higher heat might erode the ground electrode faster. Anyone doing those kinds of mods would probably also check/replace the plugs often. > I have vivid memories of watching the 917s race at Road America > in the early 70s... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Including double platinum Delco or Autolite plugs? My mechanic (Japanese make specialist) absolutely refuses to use Bosch platinums. Found that the center electrode just disappeared in some cars. Sticks with Denso now. >>Platinum plugs are strictly a maintenance sell. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > able to fire better than regular plugs because platinum was better at > standing high temperatures. Actually, I don't think they'd necessarily be bad for racing, but maybe not needed as much. However, if one were running a rich mixture, or had loose clearances in a racing engine that had long events, I'd think it might be possible to run a range or two higher hotter plug to prevent fouling. One problem with racing engines used to be fouling during starting, or during long yellows. > I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) > and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just > put the cheapy AC Delco, because the platinum won't make any difference > except possible quicker starts, but not worth the money... Is there any > performance difference between copper plugs and platinum? > Any suggestions would be appreciated.. I believe GM has used (AC relabelled) NGK double platinum plugs (AKA "Laser Platinum") as standard equipment in the 3800 Series II engine for several years. The back plugs are a PITA to replace, and the "100K mile tuneup" became a selling point. I wouldn't recommend the G-power. With only one platinum electrode, the replacement period is going to be when the ground electrode wears. I never really understood the point of a single platinum electrode. The standard NGK (V-Power) might be a good choice if reaching the back plugs isn't too much of a problem. "...the 100K mile tuneup became a selling point." JS> The 100k tuneup is really a part of a long running game all car makers are engaged in. They figure was to extend maintenance well into the future in order to keep the published annual cost of maintenance as low as possible. I believe the annual cost of maintenace covers a 5 year window so the more costs you can push beyond that point the lower the cost. 100,000 timing and serpentine belt changes, 10,000 mile oil changes, etc., are all ways to juggle when expenses are undertaken. I haven't bought sparkplugs in a long time. How much are the so-called long life platinum plugs compared to the regular "copper" ones anyway. > I haven't bought sparkplugs in a long time. How much are the > so-called long life platinum plugs compared to the regular > "copper" ones anyway. I assume by long-life platinums, you mean the true double platinum tip and not the single platinum tip like the NGK G-Power. I called up AutoZone and asked them what the price of a Denso PKJ16CR-L11 would be. There was a thread in rec.autos.maker.honda about someone looking for '99 Accord EX plugs. They went for a cool $5.99 each for true long-life double platinums. NGK platinums are more expensive. The online prices I've gotten for the equivalent NGK PZFR5F-11 (Laser Platinum) is at least $10 and up to $15. Back when I was getting plugs for my '95 Integra GS-R, the lowest price I got was $14 each for NGKs, but $7 each for Densos which needed to be slightly regapped. I know they're not supposed to be regapped, but they worked fine as long as I didn't scrape off the platinum. > I am looking at replacing my spark plugs in a 3.8l GM engine (high mileage) > and was looking at those NGK G-Power Plugs but a friend of mine says just [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > RoB. For most cars I've worked on and owned... no problemo.. just throw in the stock replacement plugs by brand X and away you go. However... my buddy owns an 04 PT Cruiser. It uses a specific part # for the plugs and actually set a check engine light a week after he bought it (used) because the wrong plugs were in it. IIRC it's a Neon engine, but you can't use Neon plugs - wrong heat range. (but I could be wrong on that... it's my friend's car so I wasn't at the shop.) (The check engine light was excessive misfires.) And, fwiw, if you're running Nitrous you shouldn't run platinums, which means I change the plugs yearly in my Trans Am.... which takes a good afternoon and must be done with a cold engine because you're under there with your arm squished up against the exhaust for a while. :) Ray > And, fwiw, if you're running Nitrous you shouldn't run platinums, which > means I change the plugs yearly in my Trans Am.... which takes a good > afternoon and must be done with a cold engine because you're under there > with your arm squished up against the exhaust for a while. :) Is it really that bad? I was thinking of offering to change the plugs on my dad's '96 Regal. The fronts look fine, but the back look like you'd need hands like Mr. Fantastic unless you want to take out a bunch of stuff. My current car is a Subaru, and it appears that it requires a lot of crap to be removed to reach the plug modules (no wires). My previous experience with changing plugs is on inline 4s. Simple and easy. A locking extension and torque wrench made things easier. BTW - the one thing I've noticed about the ND/Denso platinums I've pulled/used is that they don't have the sharp edges that I found in standard NGK or Denso plugs. Denso has the "U-groove" ground electrode in their standard offerings, while NGK has the V-power notch in the center electrode. These platinum plugs are relying on clean spots on the electrodes rather than the sharp edges on what becomes oxidized nickel alloy. >> And, fwiw, if you're running Nitrous you shouldn't run platinums, >> which means I change the plugs yearly in my Trans Am.... which takes a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > requires a lot of crap to be removed to reach the plug modules (no > wires). Some cars are. On the TA, you do #8 from below. You can only do #6 if the engine is room temp because you're touching the exhasut the whole way. It's damn tight. On my race car... it's a 10 minute job to change the plugs... including 5 minutes for a beer. :) I can only imagine changing the plugs on the old Pontiac Trans Sport vans and Lumina APVs. For the back plugs - maybe from below? If not, can you rotate the engine forward slightly if you disconnect the "dogbone"? (assuming it has one.) Ray > >> And, fwiw, if you're running Nitrous you shouldn't run platinums, > >> which means I change the plugs yearly in my Trans Am.... which takes a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I can only imagine changing the plugs on the old Pontiac Trans Sport > vans and Lumina APVs. My dad used to drive a Lumina APV. I loved banging on the plastic body panels. That thing suffered a few bruises along the way, and those body panels looked really interesting after a collision. He used to send the car to a shadetree mechanic. I remember once a few plugs came out totally melted. That thing was traded in for barely any value anyways. > For the back plugs - maybe from below? > If not, can you rotate the engine forward slightly if you disconnect > the "dogbone"? (assuming it has one.) Maybe a professional would be better suited towards taking the risk of damage to the car or mechanic. :0 One of the strangest thing I've heard of were the factory plugs on a particular Toyota truck. I was told the back plugs were NGK and the fronts were ND (or vice-versa). Seems that the backs were installed at a different spot in the production line. So I guess in that case a spark is a spark. |
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