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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / June 2005More 454 Drama and Hair Pulling
Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly not. For the first-timers: 1989 Supra Saltare (inboard boat) with a PCM-marinized 454. Had problems and I took it apart and found a lifter on the #3 exhaust had been worn clear through. Lifter was missing a good 1/3" and was the obvious source of the problem. Probably should have replaced the cam, but instead just replaced all the lifters and prayed for the best. And Now: Replaced all the lifters, got the engine back together, timed it CLOSE to where it should have been, and it ran just ok. Took it out for about 4-5 hours on saturday and as the day went on it ran worse and worse and worse. Finally it lost tons of power and became obvious that there was a cylinder not firing. Called it a day and towed it home. Monday cracked open the passenger side valve cover and found a push-rod on the #3 intake valve that was bent into the shape of an S. Talked it over with some "experts" and they all decided I probably just tightened that rocker-arm too tight -- made sense to me. Went back through and re-adjusted all the rocker-arms. Replaced the offending push-rod. The #1 exhaust was REALLY lose and needed to be tightened way down compared to the others. Took it back out for about 15-20 minutes of testing and it started making clicking noises again. Just took it back apart and decided that if the rockers were lose again I had a serious problem -- pulled the intake again and sure enough there are (at least) 3 lifters (#1 exhaust, #3 intake, and #3 exhaust), that are all just hosed. The #1 exhaust lifter had worn another 1/3" off of it and now had a hole in the bottom. The other 2 weren't as bad, but notably scratched up and worn. I can't believe that much damage could be caused after just 4-5 hours! Theres also a milky liquid (water in my oil? assembly lube?) that's only in the front part of the engine, the oil remaingin in the backside of the engine looks fine. So now the questions: Obviously I'm going to just replace the cam now -- it's looking worse and worse every day. Any idea what cam I should be putting in? What caused this? What is the milky substance? What the hell am I supposed to do about it? I know this turned into a damn novel, but I appreciate the help. Rob > For the first-timers: 1989 Supra Saltare (inboard boat) with a > PCM-marinized 454. Had problems and I took it apart and found a lifter > on the #3 exhaust had been worn clear through. Lifter was missing a good > 1/3" and was the obvious source of the problem. Probably should have > replaced the cam, but instead just replaced all the lifters and prayed > for the best. <snip repeatedly self-destructing Chev 454> > what to do about it? Next time start with a less-shitty basic engine. Olds 455, Chrysler 440... > So now the questions: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Rob whoah. That's not so good. Do you have an oil pressure gauge? Methinks you're having an oil pressure problems if you keep wiping lifters... milky=water in the oil. It is a boat... but you shouldn't have water in the oil... My $.02 (and based on blowing up a 350 with no oil pressure) is you should pull the engine and give it a once over - bearings might be wiped if you overheated it and had oil pressure problems... Oil pressure gauge reads about 45-50lbs @ idle and up to about 65lbs on the high side under load. Rob >> So now the questions: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > pull the engine and give it a once over - bearings might be wiped if you > overheated it and had oil pressure problems... > Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly not. Of course not, its a 454 doing what 454's always have done. > For the first-timers: 1989 Supra Saltare (inboard boat) with a PCM-marinized > 454. Had problems and I took it apart and found a lifter on the #3 exhaust > had been worn clear through. Lifter was missing a good 1/3" and was the > obvious source of the problem. Probably should have replaced the cam, but > instead just replaced all the lifters and prayed for the best. Scary. Cams and lifters are VERY finicky because of the thin layer of hardened metal that (should) be on the face of the cam lobes. Wiping a lifter almost certainly means that the lobe got wiped as well (or at least the hardening was damaged.) Once the surface hardening is breached, rest of the cam lobe will wear like it was made of chalk. Monday cracked open > the passenger side valve cover and found a push-rod on the #3 intake valve > that was bent into the shape of an S. Now that's just CLASSIC 454 bullsh**. Every hard-worked 454 I've ever been around would bend pushrods. > What caused this? What is the milky substance? What the hell am I supposed > to do about it? The 454 valvetrain is "delicate" to put it mildly. The splayed-valve head design combined with stud-mounted rockers puts some wierd stresses on the pushrods (which are already ridiculously long because the cam's so frickin' low in the block). ANY weakness will turn into a failure. Now, the "milky" substance may be assembly lube and ground bits of cam/lifter material, or it may be water contamination. Got a blown head gasket on that thing? If you can become reasonably sure that its just assembly lube and lifter powder, then you MAY get away with a new cam and all new lifters, CAREFUL valve adjustment (and I'd go with all new pushrods, even the ones that look OK) and oil changes. And be REALLY careful about breaking in that cam- use CAM break-in lube not general purpose assembly lube, keep it at/above 2000 RPM for a FULL 20 minutes when you first fire it up with the new parts (do NOT drop to idle, do NOT shut down and re-fire it, but also do not let it overheat). That's the only way to establish the proper wear pattern on the lobes and lifters so that they'll last a long time. > I know this turned into a damn novel, but I appreciate the help. I don't know how much the boat is worth relative to the cost of re-engining, but I'd look REAL hard at using that 454 as an anchor and putting in diesel power or a marinized Ford alternative. I dont' think anybody marinizes Chrysler engines these days, but a truck V10 would be a great replacement for a 454 if they did. >> Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly >> not. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the hardening was damaged.) Once the surface hardening is breached, rest > of the cam lobe will wear like it was made of chalk. Well the brand new lifters wore like they were choke..... grrr...... > Monday cracked open >> the passenger side valve cover and found a push-rod on the #3 intake [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > only way to establish the proper wear pattern on the lobes and lifters so > that they'll last a long time. No idea about the head-gasket. I've got no indications that it's blown, but I really have no idea how to tell. My feeling is that after 4-5 hours of running the damn thing, all the assembly lube should be good and out of there. I'm feeling like it's probably water in there, but i can't figure out why it's only on half the engine. There is a little bit of milkyness on the very tip of the dipstick as well. I broke in these lifters using your procedure, but I did have to crank the engine for a while because the timing was screwed up. I also couldn't find cam lube but the "pro" at NAPA told me that assembly lube was the same thing. >> I know this turned into a damn novel, but I appreciate the help. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > anybody marinizes Chrysler engines these days, but a truck V10 would be a > great replacement for a 454 if they did. Haven't seen any diesel engines suitable for use in a ski-boat, but if you know of one I'd love to see it. I'd love to be able to throw a more modern and more powerful EFI engine in here, but I can't afford to throw a $7000 engine into a boat that I only paid $10k for. Rob > No idea about the head-gasket. I've got no indications that it's blown, but > I really have no idea how to tell. Is it a closed-loop cooling system, or a typical boat "suck in and dump overboard" system? If its a closed loop cooling system, I think there are test kits that detect carbon monoxide in the coolant and that gives you a good indication of a blown gasket. If its a lake-water system, you can't really do that check so you have to go with other methods. A cylinder leak-down test can find a problem, and if its bad enough, even a compression test. I'm trying to remember big-chevy cooling topology.... where else can water get into oil? Not through the back of the water pump housing like can happen on a small Mopar if the cam cover corrodes, because a BBC has a separate timing chain cover. Intake manifold gaskets? Does a BBC have a "wet" intake manifold? I forget. > My feeling is that after 4-5 hours of running the damn thing, all the > assembly lube should be good and out of there. Yeah, but still lurking in the oil. I'm feeling like it's > probably water in there, but i can't figure out why it's only on half the > engine. There is a little bit of milkyness on the very tip of the dipstick > as well. I broke in these lifters using your procedure, but I did have to > crank the engine for a while because the timing was screwed up. I also > couldn't find cam lube but the "pro" at NAPA told me that assembly lube was > the same thing. Well, it PROBABLY failed because the cam was damaged from wiping the first set of lifters, not because of the assy. lube. But the special-purpose cam assembly lube does contain acid which etches the hardened layer and provides microscopic places for oil to be retained under the extreme pressure of the lifter-to-lobe contact patch (the patch is tiny, and the force can be 400 to 600 lbs depending on the valve springs- cam lobe to lifter is usually the most demanding metal-to-metal contact in a non-roller cam engine). With non-race valve springs and (especially) a used cam, you can GENERALLY break in new lifters with plain assembly lube. But for stiff springs and a brand new cam/lifter set, try to find some of the real stuff- just DON'T get it on the cam bearing journals! Use regular assembly lube there. > Haven't seen any diesel engines suitable for use in a ski-boat, but if you > know of one I'd love to see it. I'd love to be able to throw a more modern > and more powerful EFI engine in here, but I can't afford to throw a $7000 > engine into a boat that I only paid $10k for. Well that answers that. Best off fixing the 454. I rag on them because they have problems I don't think a production engine *should* have, and they always seemed to fail in the absolute WORST places when I was young and working around them on farms... but people have lived with them successfully for decades. Its not impossible. >> No idea about the head-gasket. I've got no indications that it's blown, >> but I really have no idea how to tell. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > because a BBC has a separate timing chain cover. Intake manifold gaskets? > Does a BBC have a "wet" intake manifold? I forget. Open system... sucks it in and then dumps it out through the exhaust manifold. I run it without a thermostat, but I couldnt' tell you why.... I just do. Any way to do a leak-down test at home or does this require special equipment? I've got a compression test-gauge thing, but I don't have a clue how to use it. If you haven't noticed this is just a huge learning experience for me. I can't afford to pay to have it fixed, so I'm stuck doing it myself. >> My feeling is that after 4-5 hours of running the damn thing, all the >> assembly lube should be good and out of there. > > Yeah, but still lurking in the oil. I did change the oil/filter after the first 20 minute break-in period. > I'm feeling like it's >> probably water in there, but i can't figure out why it's only on half the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the real stuff- just DON'T get it on the cam bearing journals! Use regular > assembly lube there. To replace the cam do I have to replace the cam-bearings? I guess it's back to the manual for me..... >> Haven't seen any diesel engines suitable for use in a ski-boat, but if >> you know of one I'd love to see it. I'd love to be able to throw a more [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and working around them on farms... but people have lived with them > successfully for decades. Its not impossible. Thanks again for your help.... I'm just beating my head against the wall right now. GRRR! > Open system... sucks it in and then dumps it out through the exhaust > manifold. I run it without a thermostat, but I couldnt' tell you why.... I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > learning experience for me. I can't afford to pay to have it fixed, so I'm > stuck doing it myself. A leak-down test requires a source of compressed air and a fitting to connect to the spark plug hole, plus a guage with a valve on it (varies a little depending on design). You rotate the engine so that both valves on the cylinder under test are closed (preferably TDC on the compression stroke). Apply compressed air, then release the valve and watch how quickly the pressure bleeds off. A compression test is much simpler- pull all the spark plugs and block the throttle wide open, then you put the tester in each spark plug hole and crank the engine over a few seconds and watch the compression pressure that build up. > To replace the cam do I have to replace the cam-bearings? I guess it's back > to the manual for me..... They should be inspected, for sure. Can you even get teh cam out with the engine in the boat? The cam has to come out the front of the engine, and its *as long* as the engine block, so you need that much clearance from the front face of the block. If you gotta pull the motor just to change the cam, go through the WHOLE thing. Others are suspecting a rotated cam bearing as a cause for your high oil pressure and oiling woes anyway. I didn't think a BBC would show one dry bank because of a spun cam bearing, although that one cam bearing would surely be dry. Mopars oil the two banks through the #4 cam bearing, but a BBC oils through the pushrods and I thought those had constant oil via the lifters. But you MAY have a cam bearing problem, so it needs checking. > What caused this? What is the milky substance? What the hell am I supposed > to do about it? > > I know this turned into a damn novel, but I appreciate the help. > > Rob That screams no oil pressure or blocked passages to the cam. Do you have an oil pressure gauge or just a light? I would be putting a gauge in there fast. The milky stuff 'normally' means water got in there, but if it is only in one half of the engine, then the oil pump doesn't have appeared to mix it which again screams no oil pressure or no circulation to part of the engine. Have you had any serious sludge or water issues before? Is it a rebuilt block? If so it likely didn't get cleaned and the passages are blocked. I have heard of that a bunch lately on cheap rebuilds, no cleaning and fast dead engines... Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's >> What caused this? What is the milky substance? What the hell am I >> supposed [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 > 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's Thanks for your reply. I've got a oil pressure gauge that's reading between 45 and 65lbs across the whole range of rpms. Seems normal to me, but I really don't know anything about this. :p I've had the boat less than a year so I don't really know the history of it. I've never had any other issues with it. When I bought it the guy said it had been rebuilt a couple years ago, but I have no idea how much time is on this rebuild. Rob > >> What caused this? What is the milky substance? What the hell am I > >> supposed [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Rob Well.... to be honest with you, if it was mine I would be doing some serious thinking on getting a remanned short block or cruising the wreckers for a low mileage 'land yacht' and do a used engine. Your oil pressure is high if anything which can indicate a blockage and having only half the engine contaminated with 'anything' also says no circulation big time. A little white sludge on the dipstick or under the oil cap can be OK on an engine that does short trips only. The condensation doesn't get a chance to boil off on those, but a 5 hour run.... No way. Mike and yacht' and do a used engine. > Your oil pressure is high if anything which can indicate a blockage and > having only half the engine contaminated with 'anything' also says no > circulation big time. Yeah, but Chevies oil through the pushrods FROM the lifters. If the thing munched lifters on one side, then the oiling on that side is going to be compromised too. The problem is that completely re-working the top end to be SURE its not a valvetrain/lifter/cam problem might be a huge waste of money IF its a coolant-in-the-oil problem at the root of it all. > and yacht' and do a used engine. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > valvetrain/lifter/cam problem might be a huge waste of money IF its a > coolant-in-the-oil problem at the root of it all. And this is why I need to figure out how to tell. The million dollar question is certainly -- what is the cause, not how do I treat the symptoms! > Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly not. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >Rob I don't have a lot to add to what other posters have said. The description of your problems sounds like a problem I had with a Ford engine a few years ago in a boat after it sat all winter. A cam bearing had spun blocking off much of the oil flow to the cam and valve train. Don't know enough about the 454 oil circuit to comment further. You also have to keep in mind that a sudden increase in oil pressure or higher than normal for your engine may be an indication of a spun cam bearing. You may be able to spot a dry cam bearing with the intake off by using an old distributor shaft or even buy a pump priming tool that can be driven by your electric drill to drive the pump and provide oil pressure while you watch where it goes. Although the cam lobes get much of their lube from crank throw off, some will be better lubed that others. Another problem you can run into real fast with a boat is oil starvation if you are not properly trimmed and planed in your boats attitude. Oil foaming may be what caused to milky coloration of the oil but, moisture is more likely. 5 hours of running in a boat should have been more than enough to dry it out unless it has an internal leak. If this is a Merc setup with a closed cooling system, I would suspect heat exchanger failure before head gaskets. Good luck Lugnut I agree with "LugNut" sounds like a spun cam bearing because the oil pressure sounds a little high, should be around 30-55 psi. Did you prime the lifters with oil? I use to do this by covering the lifters in oil and pushing on the top of the lifter with a pushrod, bleeds the air out of them. Also, I agree with "LugNut" on primming the engine with an old dist. shaft with the cam gear ground off. You'll have to use the biggest drill you can find because when the oil pump kicks in the drill will try and wrap you and cord around it. :b I wouldn't Dink with the engine in the boat now, too much Crap in it now floating around. If your engine turns in the normal clockwise direction you could go with a short block from Chevy, otherwise you'll have to change out the cam to make it run backwards. Good Luck!! Rick >I agree with "LugNut" sounds like a spun cam bearing because the oil > pressure sounds a little high, should be around 30-55 psi. Did you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Rick I soaked the lifters in oil for about 30 hours before installation. I was told this was adequate -- I'm just not sure that the lifters not being lubed was the problem. 13 of the 16 faired fine, and 3 in the front passenger side of the engine were eaten -- I need to find the problem before I can fix the symptoms. Rob > Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly not. > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Rob Rob, Replacing one or two lifters on a used cam is a risky proposition at best. With the wear you described I wouldn't even have tried. I would say your looking at a full tear down and rebuild now, that is about the only way to get all the iron and crud out of the block and oiling system. The milky substance is possibly water. Have the heads magnafluxed when you pull them. The 454 likes to crack between the valve seats when worked hard. Also check the heat exchangers for damage, they could allow the engine to draw water in if they are cracked. The problem with bent push rods is common with stock parts in the BBC. As to what cam to use, you need a marine cam NOT a street cam. They are different. The marine cam will be machined to push the torque curve up the rpm range more than a street cam since torque is what you want in a marine engine. 1 hour in a marine engine is about the same as 30 hours on a street engine towing a heavy load. They get abused the entire time they are running. >> Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly > not. [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > on a street engine towing a heavy load. They get abused the entire time > they are running. Thanks for your reply. I've spent some time looking at rebuilds on ebay..... do I need the marine block? I was wondering if it was possible to buy a built 454 and just put on my own intake, and accessories. Everything marine-specific would still be marine specific, but I don't know if the block and/or anything else is different? Also -- I'm pretty much going into this as a complete newbie. I'm mechanically inclined, but I don't know sh.t about engines. I've heard some good things about a dvd sold by boxwrench.net that details the entire tear-down and rebuild process. Any opinions on that? Last question is how much money am I talking about to rebuild it myself -- I've got the time and tools, it's just the cost of parts that frighten me. Thanks again, Rob >>>Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly >> [quoted text clipped - 146 lines] > > Rob Why don't you just pull the engine, and find a local independent rebuilder/machine shop and have it gone through? That way you can find out what really happened to it, and guaranteeing the parts will be the same. One other out there possibility, is its possible someone in the past substituted the boats engine with a street motor? A check of the numbers on the head and block castings may be informational. I would go to crane cams and check out there stuff. Ask you questions about your problems to them online and see what they say. http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Mar ine&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=CHEVROLET&Year=1989&Engine_Size=396-454%20C.I. Bob > >> Wish I could say that everything is running great, but it's certainly > > not. [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > > Rob No difference with the block itself. However the freeze plugs are probably brass in your engine. The bottom end is about the same as a street engine. Same bearings, crank, rods, probably pistons. The cam is different though. Heads are the same. Probably different water pump (impeller is probably bronze in yours not cast iron). Some marine engines have cathodes in the cooling jackets to help prevent rot, those are usually behind the freeze plugs. |
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