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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2005Rotors made in China
These are priced at 1/4 the cost of US made rotors - $20 vs. $80. They are for the rear brakes on a Nissan Altima. I've heard quality of Chinese parts has improved significantly in the last few years. Can anyone confirm this? >These are priced at 1/4 the cost of US made rotors - $20 vs. $80. They are >for the rear brakes on a Nissan Altima. I've heard quality of Chinese parts >has improved significantly in the last few years. Can anyone confirm this? The main problem is that they never seem to have anything to indicate which Oriental jail they were made in. :) Last set I looked at, which were fronts, had been lathe finished (brake rotors should always be ground), hadn't been balanced (you can tell by the absence of drillings) and had an unknown brand of bearing cup marked 'Made in China' (which may or may not have been compatible with Timken cones). I sent them back to the supplier and asked for the proper ones. OTOH I might have been tempted to chance it with rears. :) -- John H It's always a crap shoot with them. It will never be as good. It may be good enough to work on the rear without a problem. What bothers me most is the apparent lack of any concern for safety in products coming from China. Chineese stuff is getting better every day. This is going to be a real problem for us in the United States... Professor www.telstar-electronics.com > Chineese stuff is getting better every day. This is going to be a real > problem for us in the United States... Agreed, but they put out so much trash of low or varying quality that they are not an immediate contender for much of this business. I wouldn't buy their rotors. They are capable of high quality stuff, but they are not historically respected for it, nor will they produce to our needs unless they are tightly controlled. My working career was in telephony.I saw the transition from U S to Chinese products to the point that there are NO phones made here.By the time people realize the American phones last longer that industry is dead here.The Bell system made money by putting out a phones that last decades.You do not when a repairman is sent out on a repair call.When this is brought up to people they think for awhile and say.......you know you're right I never had trouble with my Western Electric phone. > My working career was in telephony.I saw the transition from U S to > Chinese products to the point that there are NO phones made here.By the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > this is brought up to people they think for awhile and say.......you > know you're right I never had trouble with my Western Electric phone. True enough. My brother still uses the one I paid $10 for in 1970. They were made like iron, but there was not much to them either. I feel like we were ripped off for years by the industry making us pay for repair service warranty on our inside lines and so forth. People were paying a couple bucks a month to rent a $10 phone. The truest statement made so far is that the Chinese can make high quality equipment when held to a standard. > The truest statement made so far is that the Chinese can make high > quality equipment when held to a standard. It requires *CONSTANT* and vigilant Western babysitting, though. Just having them sign a contract isn't nearly good enough. And all the certification/approval testing *must* be Western; if left to their own devices the Chinese simply falsify the results and/or apply counterfeit approval labels. When Rubbermaid was going bankrupt because of Walmart screwing them the Chinese bought the plant in Ohio and shipped it home.When you see Rubbermaid quality products out of China you will know why.PBS did a program on the failure of Rubbermaid.Some of it was their fault on relying on Walmart for too much of their production.When Walmart told them to lower their price to them they were finished.Newell picked up what was left over and now own the Rubbermaid name. > > The truest statement made so far is that the Chinese can make high > > quality equipment when held to a standard. > It requires *CONSTANT* and vigilant Western babysitting, though. Just > having them sign a contract isn't nearly good enough. And all the > certification/approval testing *must* be Western; if left to their own > devices the Chinese simply falsify the results and/or apply counterfeit > approval labels. Are you an expert on Chinese Industral Production Planning and Quality Control? What percentage of Chinese Industrial output are you experienced enough with to even begin to believe some of the nonsense you write? And, not everything that China produces is for the Western World. The fact is that the Chinese are fast moving towards being the industrial powerhouse that the U.S. once was and few nations can ever become. Thinking that they are doing this by producing junk/using counterfeit labels, etc, etc, is really not thinking at all... To answer the original post, I've had a set on my S-10 4x4 on the front for about 6 years, 4 sets of pads & never touched them. They are brake rotors, for cripe sake. There is nothing wrong with trying to save a little here. We've installed hundreds of sets on customers cars with little problems. Buy 'em. I hate when someone asks a question on here & they get 2 answers about their problem & then 7 posts about political crap, rubbermaid & phones. What the fk does that have to do with cars??? They should have a forum for people with short attention spans & vast knowlege of trivia, mabee call it "rec. piss & moan" Good luck. They should have a forum for people with short attention spans > & vast knowlege of trivia, mabee call it "rec. piss & moan" Good luck. This is a newsgroup, and people can post and discuss pretty much what they want. We have had others post previously about poor quality, particularly Chinese, rotors. Many of us have had experience with Chinese 'sh.t' products. I would never recommend a Chinese product UNLESS I were sure that it is a quality item and that the quality level is constant. Maybe you have a source of reliable ones. What company makes the ones you use or supply? > To answer the original post, I've had a set on my S-10 4x4 on the front > for about 6 years, 4 sets of pads & never touched them. They are brake > rotors, for cripe sake. There is nothing wrong with trying to save a > little here. My life and the lives of everyone on the road around me depend in large part on the integrity of my brake system. Chinese rotors? "Saving a little" on brake parts? No way, not on my car, and not on anyone else's car I service. > > To answer the original post, I've had a set on my S-10 4x4 on the front > > for about 6 years, 4 sets of pads & never touched them. They are brake [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > little" on brake parts? No way, not on my car, and not on anyone else's > car I service. Do you know the country of origin for all of the parts and their components that you use in repairs? How about that caliper, remanned transmission or alternator. That would be quite a job keeping tabs on where all those components originated. >> > To answer the original post, I've had a set on my S-10 4x4 on the front >> > for about 6 years, 4 sets of pads & never touched them. They are brake [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >transmission or alternator. That would be quite a job keeping tabs on >where all those components originated. Matt, matt, matt,... you're so glib.... Don't you know that Daniel is THE expert on EVERYTHING!! Especially the fact that there has never been an R-13 refrigerant. And of course every part that anyone else has ever used - Daniel always know more about other peoples experiences then the people do themselves. Still no answer, D.S. Have you ever seen a chinese rotor come unglued & kill anybody. Mabee they are machined on shoddy equipment but 98% of them come out of the box, get bolted on the car, have a nice day. Problems being very minimal & longevity being the same as the "expensive" brand. Give us some feedback on the horribleness of these things or get back to work in your perfect world. You're wrong. Dan's right. And that's a fact. Not just based on my statement but read about it plenty on the internet. I do have first hand knowledge as my brother in law has worked with the chinese since they allowed us to start importing their goods. And we bought a chinese tractor (Jinma) that is made in the same low quality, low cost, inconsistent factories as all the others. If you read about the Chinese made GM/Chevy Equinox you'll see that they rely on 1 worker to build and 1 other worker to ensure a quality job. It takes 2 people to replace one in the US or Japan. The chinese are KNOWN for cutting corners and will if you close your eyes for even a second. Contracts ? Phooey . They don't care. Look at their lawsuit system in the country. It's a joke. You have no idea and have never been exposed to anything like this. They make Russia look good. Steve m.. (with Chinese rotors on the Jeep that are still working after 1 year) >> > The truest statement made so far is that the Chinese can make high >> > quality equipment when held to a standard. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Thinking that they are doing this by producing junk/using counterfeit > labels, etc, etc, is really not thinking at all... > "Edward Strauss" <es8m@Virginia.EDU> wrote > >> It requires *CONSTANT* and vigilant Western babysitting, though. Just > >> having them sign a contract isn't nearly good enough. And all the > >> certification/approval testing *must* be Western; if left to their > >> own devices the Chinese simply falsify the results and/or apply > >> counterfeit approval labels. > > Are you an expert on Chinese Industral Production Planning and Quality > > Control? What percentage of Chinese Industrial output are you > > experienced enough with to even begin to believe some of the nonsense > > you write? > You're wrong. Dan's right. And that's a fact. And here's another fact: Strauss is welcome to his little assumption regarding my experience (or lack thereof, in his mind) with Chinese industrial processes including quality control and verification. He went in my killfile quite awhile ago. DS > > "Edward Strauss" <es8m@Virginia.EDU> wrote > > >> It requires *CONSTANT* and vigilant Western babysitting, though. Just > > >> having them sign a contract isn't nearly good enough. And all the > > >> certification/approval testing *must* be Western; if left to their > > >> own devices the Chinese simply falsify the results and/or apply > > >> counterfeit approval labels. > > > Are you an expert on Chinese Industral Production Planning and Quality > > > Control? What percentage of Chinese Industrial output are you > > > experienced enough with to even begin to believe some of the nonsense > > > you write? > > You're wrong. Dan's right. And that's a fact. > And here's another fact: Strauss is welcome to his little assumption > regarding my experience (or lack thereof, in his mind) with Chinese > industrial processes including quality control and verification. He went > in my killfile quite awhile ago. > DS And what is your experience? Ever even been to China? Eat Chinese food? Buy OEM Toyota parts? Or, did you read it on the internet? > You're wrong. Dan's right. And that's a fact. Not just based on my > statement but read about it plenty on the internet. I do have first hand [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > lawsuit system in the country. It's a joke. You have no idea and have > never been exposed to anything like this. They make Russia look good. > Steve m.. (with Chinese rotors on the Jeep that are still working after 1 > year) Hmm, happy with your Chinese rotors... You read it on the Internet? Hell, just wait a few more years or go into a store now. About the Jinma tractor you wanted a low cost tractor and you got one. Or, did you think you could you could get something for nothing? > >> > The truest statement made so far is that the Chinese can make high > >> > quality equipment when held to a standard. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Thinking that they are doing this by producing junk/using counterfeit > > labels, etc, etc, is really not thinking at all... Edward Strauss wrote: > > You're wrong. Dan's right. And that's a fact. Not just based on my > > statement but read about it plenty on the internet. I do have first hand [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > > Thinking that they are doing this by producing junk/using counterfeit > > > labels, etc, etc, is really not thinking at all... Someone is importing those opposed twin motorcycles so common in China. They are dressed up to look like a BMW military model, and could pass for one at a distance of 100 feet. Up close they are unbelievably tinny and coarsely finished, but really not designed for the U.S. market. OTOH as we all know many of their electronic goods are pretty darned good quality. As far as brake rotors go, I sure wouldn't buy a set from just any old website, Chinese or otherwise. If on the other hand a known U.S. parts supplier is willing to put their name on a product from China, then I'm a lot more comfortable that they have done the homework. I would not be surprised that the big three are outsourcing components to China already. The fact is China is already a big economic player and it will be in our best interest help improve their processes rather than holding them away to solve problems on their own. Sorry Pal, my stupid brother bought it. I would not have wasted my money. And yes, I was asked to pay for my part of it too. Chinese rotors still going strong. And they are CHEAP Steve >> You're wrong. Dan's right. And that's a fact. Not just based on my >> statement but read about it plenty on the internet. I do have first hand [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> > Thinking that they are doing this by producing junk/using counterfeit >> > labels, etc, etc, is really not thinking at all... > dead here.The Bell system made money by putting out a phones that last > decades. That's one of the reasons that I still use Western Electric rotary dial phones.  SignatureRoger Blake (Subtract 10 for email.) >Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech >"Professor" <briangriffey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message >news:1122984677.258357.168500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... >> Chineese stuff is getting better every day. This is going to be a >>real problem for us in the United States... >Agreed, but they put out so much trash of low or varying quality >that they are not an immediate contender for much of this business. >I wouldn't buy their rotors. >They are capable of high quality stuff, but they are not >historically respected for it, nor will they produce to our needs >unless they are tightly controlled. Have you looked at your hard drive? My newest was made in China. Scary, but it is working. Couple guys over in alt.energy.homepower have Chang Fa diesel generators, seem pleased. Tom WillmonGEnear Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA Bug free, cheap, on time, works. Pick two. Newsgroups: >> they put out so much trash of low or varying quality that they are not >> an immediate contender for much of this business. I wouldn't buy their >> rotors. They are capable of high quality stuff, but they are not >> historically respected for it, nor will they produce to our needs >> unless they are tightly controlled. > Have you looked at your hard drive? My newest was made in China. Couple > guys over in alt.energy.homepower have Chang Fa diesel generators, seem > pleased. That's grand, but neither a hard drive nor a generator is a life-or-death matter. Brakes are. >>> they put out so much trash of low or varying quality that they are not >>> an immediate contender for much of this business. I wouldn't buy their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >That's grand, but neither a hard drive nor a generator is a life-or-death >matter. Brakes are. My Chinese rotors have performed every bit as well as the OEMs. "Ashton Crusher" <Hello@nowhere.net> wrote in message > My Chinese rotors have performed every bit as well as the OEMs. That is really what we are looking for at the end of the day..safe and dependable performance at a reasonable price. By the way, some of the OEM hard drives from respected suppliers are not so hot either. One popular hard drive was identified which had consistent short run failures. Not so short as to be a warranty liability, maybe, but short enough to piss the owners off. > >> they put out so much trash of low or varying quality that they are not > >> an immediate contender for much of this business. I wouldn't buy their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > That's grand, but neither a hard drive nor a generator is a life-or-death > matter. Brakes are. Please tell us the details of the side-by-side test that allowed you to reach such a sweeping conclusion about brake rotor performance. The test I'm sure you have that compares the performance of rotors by their country of origin. Since most suppliers don't actually manufacture parts but acquire them through a sometimes lengthy distribution chain that can involve more than one source please tell us how you determined the country of origin of those rotors. In which countries was the steel compounded and poured into ingots, formed into rotors and finally finished. Could be a different country for each step. > >Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech > >"Professor" <briangriffey@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message > >news:1122984677.258357.168500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... > > Have you looked at your hard drive? My newest was made in China. > Scary, but it is working. I don't doubt it. (Mine is not Chinese) Some of the problems come, I believe, from Americans who zip over to China, cut some deals for cheap parts, and then flog them to the US market. If the QC standards are put into place, and are properly controlled by both the manufacturer and the importer, then I have no doubt that China can produce whatever you want. And, Americans manufacturers have produced some pretty bad crap in the past too. If I see a cheap power tool, air tool, etc with no warranty or with a 30 day limited warranty, I know that I am not likely to get something I will be satisfied with. I repair my own brakes. I have to satisfy myself, and since I dont have to pay a dealership $100 per hour and cost x 3 for the parts, I figure I can use the best parts that I can identify. The ones we get come from a warehouse in the south, don't need to identify anybody on line. Plain white boxes, same part # as "quality" product with a "c" suffix. Mabee you all missed the part where I stated that I put a set on my own truck & had no problem, & many on customers cars with the only headach being a warped one or 3 that was easily remedied with a lathe. It's a piece of machined metal that gets bolted behind the wheel then gets the sh.t squeezed out of it & heated up with brake pads. It ain't rocket science, if anybody on here has ever seen one actually come apart, that wasn't overly thin, I will stand corrected. Once again it seems that people are overthinking the theorys & book values before actually seeing how these things work in actual practice. And lets not forget the untested theory that the more expensive ones may just be the same thing in fancy packaging, thereby boosting profit margins of the more reputable big companies that might not be as reputable as you think. Nuttin' wrong with 'em in my book & when I'm saying about installing them on customers cars, I mean for the last 10-12 years, not just yesterday. Good luck. > Mabee you all missed the part where I stated that I put a set on my own > truck & had no problem See, that's the thing about brake problems: You don't have a problem until -- OH sh.t! -- you have a problem. > It's a piece of machined metal that gets bolted behind the wheel then > gets the sh.t squeezed out of it & heated up with brake pads. Yes. And the Chinese are expert at smiling and shaking the stupid white guy's hand and signing the contract, then substituting whatever random iron alloy their brother-in-law can get cheaply for the specified alloy, running worn-out tooling on unmaintained production equipment, falsifying quality and safety tests, and applying counterfeit regulatory approval markings. > > Mabee you all missed the part where I stated that I put a set on my own > > truck & had no problem > See, that's the thing about brake problems: You don't have a problem until > -- OH sh.t! -- you have a problem. And the last time you saw a Chinese Brake Rotor failure was???? If so, and you will have to google hard for this one, what was the cause of failure?? > > It's a piece of machined metal that gets bolted behind the wheel then > > gets the sh.t squeezed out of it & heated up with brake pads. > Yes. And the Chinese are expert at smiling and shaking the stupid white > guy's hand and signing the contract, then substituting whatever random > iron alloy their brother-in-law can get cheaply for the specified alloy, > running worn-out tooling on unmaintained production equipment, falsifying > quality and safety tests, and applying counterfeit regulatory approval > markings. You might know something about "stupid white guy's" but, going by the nonsense that you write you have never signed a contract with any mainland Chinese to produce anything. Back to automobile parts I'm seeing more and more Toyota parts being made in China. They must have found a way to get quality from over there... <soapbox> maybe just me, but i would blame the stupid white guy, who is trying to scam me by pawning off substandard parts and making a quick buck. are you actually suggesting that the chinese business person actually feel bad about using synergies he can find to come up with a more efficient product development strategy? all the "substandard chinese products" in the US are voluntarily imported by "stupid white guys". there is no sense in expecting the chinese to turn away business, but there should be no tolerence for the american businesses/corporations that comprimise on quality to improve their profit margins... since when did it become american to allow corporations to faust off their responsibility and claim immunity because they were stupid? </soapbox> irax. >>Mabee you all missed the part where I stated that I put a set on my own >>truck & had no problem [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > quality and safety tests, and applying counterfeit regulatory approval > markings. >The ones we get come from a warehouse in the south, don't need to >identify anybody on line. Plain white boxes, same part # as "quality" [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >when I'm saying about installing them on customers cars, I mean for the >last 10-12 years, not just yesterday. Good luck. I talked to a guy in the biz of making inspection gauges for these and other auto parts. He said there is some truth to the idea that there are levels of tolerance and that if a given part is outside vendor A's tolerance it may still be within vendor B's tolerance. Does that make it a "bad" part. He certainly did not think so. I haven't used nearly as many of these "white box" disks as you but my experience with them is that at about one-forth the cost of the Genuine OEM part the perform functionally identical IF NOT BETTER. My original OEM disks on my 92 were warped in 4000 miles and after 3 trips to the dealer with at least one of them replaced (too thin to keep machining) they still continued to warp up till 40K when I gave up. But the "cheap Chinese junk" I replaced them with are still on there, UNWARPED at 100K. > These are priced at 1/4 the cost of US made rotors - $20 vs. $80. They are > for the rear brakes on a Nissan Altima. I've heard quality of Chinese parts > has improved significantly in the last few years. Can anyone confirm this? We could take much of this and other similar threads on this group, swap "Japan" for "China", turn the message dates back 50 years and have experience a little deja vu. Westerners were agonizing over cars and other consumer goods supposedly made from beer cans that were turned inside out. The stories were urban legend of course and several large industries rested on their past accomplishments while Japanese companies took over a good chink of business that would have otherwise gone to them. Fact is China and it's neighbor island Taiwan are capable of and have been producing quality goods for quite a while. Are there some shoddy Chinese goods out there? Sure, but we americans are perfectly capable of producing substandard goods too. > We could take much of this and other similar threads on this group, > swap "Japan" for "China", turn the message dates back 50 years and have > experience a little deja vu. More like 30 years for Japanese cars. > Westerners were agonizing over cars and > other consumer goods supposedly made from beer cans that were turned > inside out. The stories were urban legend of course Actually I saw some childrens toys make out of sheet metal recycled from drinking cans. > and several large > industries rested on their past accomplishments while Japanese > companies took over a good chink of business that would have otherwise > gone to them. My parents had an early 70's Toyota. The automatic transmission failed fairly quickly. A friend had a Datsun 510 that was a great car. Te Japanese spent 20+ years improving their quality while many other car manufactures did little to improve (or actually got far worse). Who knows what will happen with China in the future. > Fact is China and it's neighbor island Taiwan are > capable of and have been producing quality goods for > quite a while. Are there some shoddy Chinese goods out > there? Yes, but that does not mean all Chinese products are shoddy. Caveat Emptor. > Sure, but we americans are perfectly capable > of producing substandard goods too. I remember some '70 Chrysler products that fit that bill quite nicely. Things can and do change so we always need to be aware of what is happening currently. The Germans have had problems: VWs had severe engine problems in the late '60s and '70s. A friend's 1 year old MB has had a variety of problems. I won't mention the French, Italians, and English. > > We could take much of this and other similar threads on this group, > > swap "Japan" for "China", turn the message dates back 50 years and have > > experience a little deja vu. > > More like 30 years for Japanese cars. Actually no they were being imported in the late 1950's and in increasing numbers in the 1960's. > > Westerners were agonizing over cars and > > other consumer goods supposedly made from beer cans that were turned [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > My parents had an early 70's Toyota. The automatic > transmission failed fairly quickly. And I owned a 1970 Toyota Corona sedan and 1979 Toyota Corona wagon. Both ran for over 200,000 miles with no problems other than the usual maintenance. > A friend had a Datsun 510 that was a great car. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Who knows what will happen with China in the future. I think that it is almost a given that they will be a major economic, political and military force. > > Fact is China and it's neighbor island Taiwan are > > capable of and have been producing quality goods for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes, but that does not mean all Chinese products are > shoddy. Caveat Emptor. Well, yes, and that was the point I was making. Gladyou agree. > > Sure, but we americans are perfectly capable > > of producing substandard goods too. > > I remember some '70 Chrysler products that fit that bill > quite nicely. Yes, Chrysler, Ford and GM products went downhill in that period. > Things can and do change so we always need to be aware of > what is happening currently. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I won't mention the French, Italians, and English. >>>We could take much of this and other similar threads on this group, >>>swap "Japan" for "China", turn the message dates back 50 years and have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Actually no they were being imported in the late 1950's and in > increasing numbers in the 1960's. Sure in *small* numbers in the '50s and '60s but not many people were talking about them then. http://www.theautochannel.com/mania/industry.orig/history/chap16.html "Toyota and Nissan began exporting cars to the United States in 1958, when sales of Datsun totaled 1,003 and Toyota's Toyopet 919. Both nameplates drifted without making much of a dent in the U.S. market. In fact, the cars were not right for the U.S. market and the Japanese pulled back to study the situation and retrench." http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/auto_technology/1266616.html?page=5&c=y "It began in 1959. Import sales, led by the Volkswagen Beetle, shot up [to] 10 percent of the market. ... In 1967, the Japanese arrived. Sort of. Toyota, Datsun and Honda entered the market with small, awkward cars that Detroit was sure held no appeal for the American buyer. And they didn't for the most part–that is, until the aforementioned oil embargo in 1973". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda - "Honda finally established a foothold in the American market in 1972 with the introduction of the Civic" http://www.cars101.com/subaru/subaru_history.html - "1968 Subaru's first year in the USA" [about 300 cars] > >>>We could take much of this and other similar threads on this group, > >>>swap "Japan" for "China", turn the message dates back 50 years and have [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > http://www.cars101.com/subaru/subaru_history.html - "1968 Subaru's first > year in the USA" [about 300 cars] The links to wikipedia and popular mechanics articles on foreign auto production are interesting. But my original comments dealt more with the mistaken perception of americans about the quality of post WWII japanese goods. The german and american photographic and optics industries made the mistake of assuming japanese companies were not capable of producing quality goods in the early 1950's and they never recovered from that decision. The american auto industry was poised to copy that mistake in the late 1950's. It took them a decade to recognize the threat and their subsequent responses seemed to be more reactions than well thought out designs. > The links to wikipedia and popular mechanics articles on foreign auto > production are interesting. But my original comments dealt more with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > recognize the threat and their subsequent responses seemed to be more > reactions than well thought out designs. Very true. Japan came from total junk to equal American junk in a relatively short time. Then they began to surpass the sleeping American industry. Detroit has made some improvements, but suffers from many ailments. American buying patterns seem to confuse Detroit..While some opt for the better German and Japanese cars, there is that other side which is driven by styling and appearance rather than quality. The SUV craze still confuses me a little....they, in general, are considerably less safe than some other types of vehicles, tend toward being gas guzzlers, and really are not so very big on the inside...we must, however, keep up with the Jones. Unfortunately, it would appear that decades of poor mangement has left some of the American giants with legacy problems that is driving them to the poorhouse. > > The links to wikipedia and popular mechanics articles on foreign auto > > production are interesting. But my original comments dealt more with [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > however, > keep up with the Jones. Actually the SUV craze was really a reaction to the CAFE standards imposed on car manufacturers. The CAFE standards had a big impact on the SUV predecessor - the station wagon. The big wagon was horrible on gas milage, but many of use need something to haul our stuff and people around. The CAFE standards meant the car makers could no longer include many of those big VistaCruisers in inventory so they had to find a loophole. Truck-based vehicles were exempted from CAFE, and the SUV was born. Instead of hauling our stuff around in low riding station wagons we haul our stuff around in high riding station wagons that have been rechristened SUVs. > Unfortunately, it would appear that decades of poor mangement has left some > of > the American giants with legacy problems that is driving them to the > poorhouse. >> > The links to wikipedia and popular mechanics articles on foreign auto >> > production are interesting. But my original comments dealt more with [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >station wagons we haul our stuff around in high riding station wagons >that have been rechristened SUVs. One of the car mags did an interesting analysis of this very issue a few years ago. They found that the average WEIGHT of what "we" buy has not changed appreciably in all these years. As you said, people just switched from CAFEed cars to Non-CAFEed Trucks and SUVs. It seems we like to buy our autos by the pound. >These are priced at 1/4 the cost of US made rotors - $20 vs. $80. They are >for the rear brakes on a Nissan Altima. I've heard quality of Chinese parts >has improved significantly in the last few years. Can anyone confirm this? The last time I bought (front) rotors, I weighed them. The more expensive ones were about 2# heavier than the cheap ones I was replacing, which had warped. > >These are priced at 1/4 the cost of US made rotors - $20 vs. $80. They are > >for the rear brakes on a Nissan Altima. I've heard quality of Chinese parts [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > expensive ones were about 2# heavier than the cheap ones I was > replacing, which had warped. So you wore 2# of metal off the cheap ones before they warped? Not sure that it proves anything to compare a worn part to a new one in that context. Pete C. >> >These are priced at 1/4 the cost of US made rotors - $20 vs. $80. They are >> >for the rear brakes on a Nissan Altima. I've heard quality of Chinese parts [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Pete C. Pls note, I did not claim it proved anything. I was simply sharing an observation. Any conclusions you draw are your own. G > On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:42:23 GMT, "Pete C." <aux3.DOH.4@snet.net> > Pls note, I did not claim it proved anything. I was simply sharing an > observation. Any conclusions you draw are your own. > > G American manufacturers have done everything possible (and sometimes inadvisable) to get the weight down. On some cars, 2 lbs per disc would be 8 pounds total, not an insignificant amount when compared to engineering plastic manifolds and suchlike. It has been discussed here before that some OEM rotors have little or no excess to allow truing, and I suspect that the weight bugaboo is the reason for this type of engineering...that, plus a bit of planned obsolescence and service expectations. One of the problems with cast iron, as you all know, is intergranular cracking. It is hard and brittle, but can hold up well IF it is of good consistent quality. ( The Titanic was not only a victim of an iceberg, but of crappy steel quality) I would suspect that parts which were not considered safe in their metallurgy would not be importable and saleable. (Rose colored glasses, perhaps). The legal liability would be potentially high. Of the Chinese products I have bought, some from Harbor Freight, most were okay. Cheap Chinese electrical goods are not on my menu. Drill bits ?? they are okay for a couple of uses, often break, so what. Didn't the Titanic steel plates they brought up from the wreck have too much sulfur in them?Instead of giving a little under stress they were too brittle and cracked on impact. > Didn't the Titanic steel plates they brought up from the wreck have too > much sulfur in them?Instead of giving a little under stress they were > too brittle and cracked on impact. Shut up shut up shut up! Is not is not is not! Chinese rotors are fine! I know because I've put them on my own truck and I'm still alive! You can't prove they're junk! It's just brakes, there's nothing wrong with buying cheap parts! Shut up shut up I can't hear you LA LA LA LA LA LA I can't hear you! --Pater The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said steel. I think the world has evolved in technology a wee bit since then. Mabee if my rotors contain too much sulpher it's because they are made in china where fireworks were invented & some spilled over form the gunpowder factory next door to the rotor plant & the next time I hit my brakes I'm gonna explode both fronts & have a horrible accinent & may even die. Oh no, I'm off to buy some "real" ones right now, lest I risk life & limb. This is getting old, seeya, D.S. is too fkn smart for me. > The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper > understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said > steel. Good point. That's entirely different from the situation in China right now: They more-or-less know the effects, but they also know that inferior iron costs less. > > The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper > > understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > now: They more-or-less know the effects, but they also know that inferior > iron costs less. The Titanic was begun in 1908, and went down in 1912. The steel could have been made in the 1800's, I guess. Like DRL's, the pro's and con's are bandied about, but it has been suggested that the steel could have been a part of the problem. The engineering was certainly not as God resistant as the Brits had thought. And pisspoor organization and leadership rounded out this nightmare in the making. So whether you feel you risk your life in an ocean liner, on Chinese rotors, or in the US space shuttle, materials, techniques, quality control, engineering, and management all play a part. You are just as dead if somebody screws up. And I think that that is what Daniel, I, and others want to avoid as long as we can. Pussies ! ! ! >> > The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper >> > understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >And I think that that is what Daniel, I, and others want to avoid as long as >we can. How often do you magnaflux all your front end parts? Do you have a driveshaft loop? Do you wear a helmet while driving? None of those??? Yet you worry about Chinese rotors, an item for which not a single person can produce a single documented case where the "poor quality Chinese rotor" was the primary cause of an accident. >>>>The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper >>>>understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > a single person can produce a single documented case where the "poor > quality Chinese rotor" was the primary cause of an accident. Personally I just don't want to encourage people to produce inferior goods, even if they're "probably" not dangerous. It's the principle of the thing. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>>The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper >>>>>understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >nate Yet no one can document that they are "inferior", only that they cost less. >>>>>>The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper >>>>>>understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Yet no one can document that they are "inferior", only that they cost > less. Bullshit. If you haven't seen any documentation, you haven't been paying attention. Heck, I've seen people post to this very newsgroup with "why do my brand new rotors still pulsate" etc. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >>>>>>>The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper >>>>>>>understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >nate People post the same complaint about brand new cars. Proves nothing about whether the Chinese rotors are better or worse then the OEM. And people only post complaints anyway. You aren't going to see a lot of posts about all the Chinese rotor installations that didn't pulsate and you can be sure there are plenty of them since they sell a lot of rotors. None of the Chinese rotors I've installed has pulsated and they have all lasted about the same as the OEMs they replaced. HLS@nospam.nix wrote:. The engineering was > certainly not as God resistant as the Brits had thought. And pisspoor > organization and leadership rounded out this nightmare in the making. I fail to see how one can call a box watertight when it has no cover :-) How often do you magnaflux all your front end parts? Do you have a driveshaft loop? Do you wear a helmet while driving? None of those??? Yet you worry about Chinese rotors, an item for which not a single person can produce a single documented case where the "poor quality Chinese rotor" was the primary cause of an accident. Thank you very much, crusher man, seems I ain't got a hammer big enough to crack some of these thick skulls on here. > How often do you magnaflux all your front end parts? I don't; but I am in the middle of doing a very thorough inspection and repair of the front end on one of my cars right now. I don't consider magnafluxing necessary for stamped steel control arms; now on the Porsche, were I replacing the lower ball joints, I would definitely have the (aluminum) control arms checked somehow. > Do you have a > driveshaft loop? No, but I am considering adding one to the same car mentioned above. I also just replaced both U-joints. > Do you wear a helmet while driving? No, I consider the reduction in vision and hearing to be a greater risk than that of me being in a crash where a helmet could be helpful. > None of > those??? Yet you worry about Chinese rotors, an item for which not > a single person can produce a single documented case where the "poor > quality Chinese rotor" was the primary cause of an accident. However, it can certainly cause you to revisit a brake job well before any of the other components would normally be due for replacement due to abnormal wear, warping, etc. > Thank you very much, crusher man, seems I ain't got a hammer big enough > to crack some of these thick skulls on here. Whatever. I still ain't buying them; if you choose to that's your prerogative. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel Pater, nobody cares if you use case hardened latex brake rotors. It is your call. Same to Ashton Crusher. Do what makes you happy. Do either of you have vested interests in buying, selling, or promoting these parts? And what do they say about bridges that were made with steel from the 1800's ? Care to guess ? Yep, same comments. Too brittle they need to be replaced. But they did stand for all those years. Must've been pretty decent. Steve m.. >> > The steel in the titanic was manufactured in the 1800's without proper >> > understanding of effects that temperature has on performance of said [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > as > we can. > Didn't the Titanic steel plates they brought up from the wreck have too > much sulfur in them?Instead of giving a little under stress they were > too brittle and cracked on impact. Exactly. They were brittle, of poor quality. Steel and cast iron are chemically rather similar, but the small amounts of impurities make all the difference. Sulfur is bad. Hardness and brittlenesss often go hand in hand. |
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