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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2005oil pump came with gasket?
Ok, I just got my new crank-mounted oil pump. It came with a blue paper gasket instead of the factory o-rings (no gasket came off the old pump). The gasket goes all around the pump and also covers the o-ring slots around the oil passages. Should I use the gasket? If so/not, where should I apply RTV? > Ok, I just got my new crank-mounted oil pump. It came with a blue paper > gasket instead of the factory o-rings (no gasket came off the old pump). The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > If so/not, where should I apply RTV? You got the wrong pump. Take it back and get the correct one. "=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=" <" =?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> writes: >> Ok, I just got my new crank-mounted oil pump. It came with a blue paper >> gasket instead of the factory o-rings (no gasket came off the old pump). The [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> If so/not, where should I apply RTV? >You got the wrong pump. Take it back and get the correct one. It's the correct pump. It is identical in every way to the broken one except that it's not broken. The difference is the gasket. The oil passages are not *blocked* by the gasket, I'm just not sure if a plain gasket is sufficient to seal an oil pump housing up to the block. (On the bottom of the pump where it meets a flange of the oil pan I'm using ultrablack RTV.) I was thinking of putting some ultrablack RTV in the o-ring grooves and then using the gasket as-is. How bad of an idea is that? > "=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=" <" =?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I was thinking of putting some ultrablack RTV in the o-ring grooves and then > using the gasket as-is. How bad of an idea is that? Does the dealer's parts diagrams show either a gasket or o-rings? I'd probably check with them first just to make sure. I don't like using "stuff" when there is any chance of some of it flaking off and getting into the very small oil passages. "=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=" <" =?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> writes: >> I was thinking of putting some ultrablack RTV in the o-ring grooves and then >> using the gasket as-is. How bad of an idea is that? >Does the dealer's parts diagrams show either a gasket or o-rings? The dealer diagram shows neither. The factory manual mentions neither. The teardown manual mentions o-rings. I couldn't tell whether the black residue that I was peeling out of the old pump was RTV or melted o-ring material. >I'd probably check with them first just to make sure. I did. They had no idea and suggested I buy their oil pump at 2X the cost. But they couldn't tell me whether or not it would come with o-rings or a gasket. Part of the problem may be that this is an Isuzu motor in a GM car (Geo Storm, Isuzu 4XE1) I also obtained a Beck Arnley pump (supposed to be OEM identical) and it came with no gasket and no o-rings. Calling B/A yielded only the answer that they do not supply o-rings. The o-rings, if any, are too strange a size to find at a parts store, even in those A/C assortments (I tried). >I don't like using "stuff" when there is any chance of some of it flaking >off and getting into the very small oil passages. I was thinking of using just enough to fill up the o-ring grooves, and counting on the gasket everywhere else. On the pan, I was planning to use enough to fill in the machined depressions in the pan lip, and then spreading the rest across the pan flange with a putty knife to get a good seal with the bottom of the pump. The oil will be drained and replaced before running the pump. > "=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=" <" =?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > putty knife to get a good seal with the bottom of the pump. The oil will be > drained and replaced before running the pump. Have you asked on the Isuzu newsgroup? Those grooves may not be for o-rings, esp. since you didn't take any out. >Have you asked on the Isuzu newsgroup? >Those grooves may not be for o-rings, esp. since you didn't take any out. It's possible. It wouldn't be the first time the teardown manual has been wrong. I don't appear to get an Isuzu newsgroup, but I have been asking on two Isuzu forums with very little response. The one response I did get came in too late to stop what I was already in the process of doing. It suggested using Gaskacinch or Felco bond and never to use RTV anywhere near an oil pump. Here's what I did. Flames welcome. - Primed the pump by submerging intake in a pan of new oil and turning the rotor until oil appeared at the output - Cleaned off all oil - Applied ultrablack RTV into factory o-ring grooves ONLY - Applied gasket - Went to install pump - Realized oil was coming out of hole still - Allowed all oil to drain from hole, sprayed gasket with brake cleaner and wiped as best I could, gasket was stained a bit - Went to install pump - Applied ultrablack RTV to oil pan surface that pump sits on (some kind of red sealer was there before and was cleaned off) - Smoothed out RTV towards outer edge of pan with a plastic scraper - Put pump up to block - Realize crank squared off areas are not lined up with pump - Line up pump - Put pump up to block - Top part of gasket caught on something, gasket comes partially loose. then got RTV on the gasket while pulling it back down - Attempt to rectify the previous problem by moving the gasket back into place and cleaning RTV off it, along with more oil that had come out of the pump onto the gasket (maybe priming it wasn't a great idea) - Put pump up to block - It's going on now... - Notice part of seal lip is in FRONT of the crankshaft - Attempt to fix seal lip, but seal spring came out - Swear loudly - Pull down pump to rectify that problem - Reinstall seal spring back around seal lip with small screwdriver and verify lip is undamaged - Put pump up to block - Use flathead screwdriver held in my 3rd hand to get seal lip around crankshaft - Pump is now on - Install bottom screws (removed studs in favor of screws for ease of extraction) through oil pan into pump - Install bolts through pump into block according to position they were removed in, as laid out on shop towel - Realize one of 8 bolts is missing - Swear some more and wonder how a bolt just walked off - Torque all existing bolts to 10 Nm - Leave overnight for RTV to setup I guess I'll get the missing bolt at the dealer on monday. But if I seriously fubared by using RTV I guess it's a moot issue. I didn't see any other way to seal up the oil pan to pump, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the wrong thing to put in those grooves. >>Have you asked on the Isuzu newsgroup? >>Those grooves may not be for o-rings, esp. since you didn't take any out. [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > other way to seal up the oil pan to pump, but I wouldn't be surprised if it > was the wrong thing to put in those grooves. Nah, You're ok. That pump casting could be the basis for a pump for a different engine. Too bad about the bolt. Smack the cat. >Nah, You're ok. >That pump casting could be the basis for a pump for a different engine. Maybe. I'm not so worried about that as I am the comment on the board that RTV is not safe to use around oil pumps. Providing a reason for that assertion would have helped. Maybe the reason is that people tend to use way too much RTV, and it's better to use none than too much? I definitely don't have that problem, I am as sparing as possible when it comes to RTV. I can see how too much RTV would be a problem here - if it restricts an oil passage or if little strings of RTV get into the oil and stick to the pick-up screen, you are in big trouble. I'm also worried about the oil I got on the gasket. That's usually a bad thing. How easily are leak paths formed when you get oil on them like that? I torqued all the bolts to spec (10 Nm) but they still feel like they can be tightened without much more effort. I guess that just demonstrates how easy it is to over-torque them. Then again, I wonder if the factory torque specs would be different if they were spec'd with a gasket installed... I could just be a worry-wart. Probably the feeling of maybe having to tear it down and do this again, or losing my motor, is instilling some regrets in me about the procedure. I can't identify anything specific I did wrong, just several murky areas. >Too bad about the bolt. Smack the cat. He continues to insist that someone else did it. Liar, I was the only one in the garage, and I never lose/kick/slip on anything... > >> I was thinking of putting some ultrablack RTV in the o-ring grooves and then > >> using the gasket as-is. How bad of an idea is that? [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > putty knife to get a good seal with the bottom of the pump. The oil will be > drained and replaced before running the pump. I have never worked on an Isuzu engine. The GM's I am familiar with just use a crank seal and housing gasket but no other seals. "=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=" <" =?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> writes: >I have never worked on an Isuzu engine. The GM's I am familiar with >just use a crank seal and housing gasket but no other seals. Well, that's what I put on (gasket and crank seal), with the exception of ultrablack RTV in the grooves where the teardown manual claims o-rings belong in. Do yours sit on top of part of the oil pan, and if so what do you use to seal that up? I used more ultrablack there, spread evenly with a plastic scraper. > "=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=" <" =?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seal that up? I used more ultrablack there, spread evenly with a plastic > scraper. Yes. Definitely use RTV on the front of the pan. And especially on any corners. Your solution is simple. If there is a groove for an O ring, put one in, put the pump on, throw the gasket in the trash, have a nice day. It's all you need to seal the situation, no RTV required. >Your solution is simple. If there is a groove for an O ring, put one >in, put the pump on, throw the gasket in the trash, have a nice day. That'd be great, except finding o-rings of the correct size proved to be more difficult than I had time for. I exhausted the o-rings at Advance, and the dealer was not helpful aside from suggesting that maybe their pump came with the o-rings (the o-rings were not shown on their diagram, however). >It's all you need to seal the situation, no RTV required. Yup. That's why I would have much preferred to do that. > Well, that's what I put on (gasket and crank seal), with the exception of > ultrablack RTV in the grooves where the teardown manual claims o-rings belong > in. Do yours sit on top of part of the oil pan, and if so what do you use to > seal that up? I used more ultrablack there, spread evenly with a plastic > scraper. Autozone's online manual (Chilton?) 85-93 Geo Storm says: EXCEPT 1.8L ENGINE 7. Reverse procedure to install. Apply suitable sealant to the oil pump gasket surface. Install bolts and torque to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm). Connect the battery negative cable. Start engine and check for leaks. 1.8L ENGINE 12. Apply a coat of silicone sealant to the oil pump gasket surface, making sure the no sealant plugs any oil pump ports. Install the pump to the cylinder block, then tighten the bolts and nuts to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm). >Autozone's online manual (Chilton?) 85-93 Geo Storm says: >EXCEPT 1.8L ENGINE >7. Reverse procedure to install. Apply suitable sealant to the oil pump > gasket surface. Install bolts and torque to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm). > Connect the battery negative cable. Start engine and check for leaks. Interesting. I seriously think Haynes may be making things up when they mention the o-rings. That would be the fourth source to suggest that it simply be sealed up with a gasket or sealant. >>EXCEPT 1.8L ENGINE >>7. Reverse procedure to install. Apply suitable sealant to the oil pump >> gasket surface. Install bolts and torque to 89 inch lbs. (10 Nm). >> Connect the battery negative cable. Start engine and check for leaks. >Interesting. I seriously think Haynes may be making things up when they >mention the o-rings. That would be the fourth source to suggest that it >simply be sealed up with a gasket or sealant. Then I just got an answer from the people who sold the oil pump saying that they "can't help me find the o-rings". Same answer I got from Beck Arnley. That answer does not tell me anything about whether or not the o-rings are required, only that they do indeed exist. Where is a good place to look for weird o-rings? Advance and Autozone are not it. Maybe an industrial hydraulics rebuilder, you know the kind of company that rebuilds Rams and pumps for Cherry picker and forklifts. Had a company like that make up hoses for a power steering system on old Jag. for me. They had a 4X16 ft. section of drawers with nothing but "O" rings. Look in the Yellow Pages under "Air and Hydraulics" HTH, Rick >Then I just got an answer from the people who sold the oil pump saying that >they "can't help me find the o-rings". Same answer I got from Beck Arnley. >That answer does not tell me anything about whether or not the o-rings are >required, only that they do indeed exist. Where is a good place to look for >weird o-rings? Advance and Autozone are not it. >Then I just got an answer from the people who sold the oil pump saying that >they "can't help me find the o-rings". Same answer I got from Beck Arnley. >That answer does not tell me anything about whether or not the o-rings are >required, only that they do indeed exist. Where is a good place to look for >weird o-rings? Advance and Autozone are not it. Napa or CarQuest or any "Real" parts store in your town. The one with the trucks that deliver to the pros. Steve B. Replying to myself again: >Then I just got an answer from the people who sold the oil pump saying that >they "can't help me find the o-rings". Same answer I got from Beck Arnley. >That answer does not tell me anything about whether or not the o-rings are >required, only that they do indeed exist. Where is a good place to look for >weird o-rings? Advance and Autozone are not it. Now I've been told by someone who has rebuilt one of these motors that he put nothing besides Gaskacinch(sp) in between the oil pump housing and block, and that there are no o-rings. Now I think that what I've done (used the supplied gasket and RTV only on the bottom and the grooves around the oil passages) should be sufficient. I'm getting tired of thinking about it so I guess it's time to just see if it leaks. I think you have the wrong pump. RTV will not substitute for o-rings because it goes mushy in direct contact with oil. Please post a follow-up and let us know what happens. Mike 86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00 88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's > "=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?=" <" =?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> writes: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seal that up? I used more ultrablack there, spread evenly with a plastic > scraper. Maybe you could tell us what engine this is!!!??? > Ok, I just got my new crank-mounted oil pump. It came with a blue paper > gasket instead of the factory o-rings (no gasket came off the old pump). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > If so/not, where should I apply RTV? >Maybe you could tell us what engine this is!!!??? Isuzu 4XE1 (Geo Storm SOHC) It's getting a new oil pump because the timing tensioner mounts onto the aluminum oil pump housing, and the mount broke off the old one. |
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