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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2005Gasoline reported to "spoil" after only one month in your tank
Does gasoline really "spoil" in a month as Consumer Reports reports? . Proof at: http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs42&d=05333&f=gasoline.gif Here is the relevant quote from the reputable Consumers' Union: . "Some Craftsman and Troy-Bilt mowers ease starting further . by the use of a fuel cap that adds stabilizer to the gasoline, . thereby enabling the gasoline to last up to a year, rather than . to last just a month or so after which the gas typically spoils." That quote is from the Consumer Reports June 2005 online article titled "Lawn mowers: Making mowing easier." MY QUESTION: Does gasoline really "spoil" after a month? How? What does the "stabilizer" do? My scooter sits idly for more than a month (am I damaging it)? > Does gasoline really "spoil" in a month as Consumer Reports reports? > . Proof at: http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs42&d=05333&f=gasoline.gif [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > What does the "stabilizer" do? > My scooter sits idly for more than a month (am I damaging it)? Gasoline does have a limited shelf life, though much longer than one month (more like a year). The use of stabilizers is common, i.e. Coleman stove fuel is essentially unleaded gasoline with a stabilizer added. Accumulation of moisture is the biggest issue with leaving gasoline in an engine without any use. My favorite part of the article is the part about the addition of a cup holder making mowing more bearable. I can just see someone deciding on which mower to buy based on the presence of a cup holder! It reminds me of the listing for a lawn mower on craigslist, 'Lawnmower for sale, gasoline powered, red color.' > My favorite part of the article is the part about the addition of a cup > holder making mowing more bearable. I can just see someone deciding on > which mower to buy based on the presence of a cup holder! It reminds me > of the listing for a lawn mower on craigslist, 'Lawnmower for sale, > gasoline powered, red color.' well, there are electric and manual ones. and some people may really hate red anything. > Gasoline does have a limited shelf life, though much longer than one > month (more like a year). The use of stabilizers is common, i.e. Coleman > stove fuel is essentially unleaded gasoline with a stabilizer added. i'd heard something like 3 months, not a year. > Accumulation of moisture is the biggest issue with leaving gasoline in > an engine without any use. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of the listing for a lawn mower on craigslist, 'Lawnmower for sale, > gasoline powered, red color.' >My favorite part of the article is the part about the addition of a cup >holder making mowing more bearable. I can just see someone deciding on >which mower to buy based on the presence of a cup holder! It reminds me >of the listing for a lawn mower on craigslist, 'Lawnmower for sale, >gasoline powered, red color.' It is common knowledge that red paint makes everything go faster. --------------- Alex People in red cars get more speeding tickets than folks in any other color vehicle. W : ) > Coleman stove fuel is essentially unleaded gasoline with a stabilizer > added. I thought it was naphtha. http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/defs/sources/petrol.htm >> Coleman stove fuel is essentially unleaded gasoline with a stabilizer >> added. > >I thought it was naphtha. >http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/defs/sources/petrol.htm It is a "light naptha". So is gasoline. It is also known as "first run gasoline", and in many places "white gas". It is "pure" gasoline in that there are no detergents, knock inhibitors, etc added to it - just straight distilled petroleum product. >>Coleman stove fuel is essentially unleaded gasoline with a stabilizer >>added. > > I thought it was naphtha. > http://www.iea.org/Textbase/stats/defs/sources/petrol.htm Yes, my mistake. The older formulation of Coleman fuel was essentially the same as the unleaded gasoline sold by Amoco, but the current formulation is mostly naptha. > MY QUESTION: > Does gasoline really "spoil" after a month? How? > What does the "stabilizer" do? > My scooter sits idly for more than a month (am I damaging it)? Stabilizers prevent oxidation of components of the gasoline formulation and reduce formation of gums and solids. They may also dispersed water, condensed from the atmosphere, into microemulsions, reducing the corrosivity of the liquid water. A slug of water into the 'carburetor' will of course cause hard starting, corrosion, etc. If your 'gas' is dry and the tank is full, a month is not too long. Stabilizer formulations often contain compounds like (1) alcohol or alkylphenol alkoxylates, (2) alkoxylated amines (3) BHT or similar (4) imidazolines and a host of other possibilities. >That quote is from the Consumer Reports June 2005 online article titled >"Lawn mowers: Making mowing easier." > >MY QUESTION: >Does gasoline really "spoil" after a month? How? I often have trouble starting my lawn mower if it has stale gas in it. This typically happens in the spring, and sometimes in late summer after a dry spell when the lawn doesn't need much mowing. I'm not sure that one month is enough to make the gas stale, but 4 months definitely does. I suppose slightly stale gas lets me start the engine but it's harder to start. The fix is to add fresh gas. If there's something like 1/4 tank of stale gas, just adding more fresh gas and giving it a little time to mix is enough. If there's nearly a full tank, I need to empty the tank first. Changing the air filter also helps, but that seems to be a different issue: stale gas causes problems even with a fresh filter, and fresh gas won't help with a clogged filter. I really shouldn't leave the mower with a nearly-full tank over the winter, but I don't always know when the last mowing of the season is, and sometimes I just forget about the issue. I have heard that some of the problem relates to what is left behind after gas evaporates vs. what evaporates. You end up with a lot more of what doesn't evaporate. I'm not sure this is reasonable, as a full tank at the end of summer doesn't end up a half tank in the spring. >What does the "stabilizer" do? It probably makes the gas last longer, but I have no idea how. >My scooter sits idly for more than a month (am I damaging it)? I'm not sure whether the "damage" is to the gas or to the engine. Deposits left by evaporated gas after non-use may be burned off after you finally get the engine started. Gordon L. Burditt > I have heard that some of the problem relates to what is left behind > after gas evaporates vs. what evaporates. You end up with a lot > more of what doesn't evaporate. I'm not sure this is reasonable, > as a full tank at the end of summer doesn't end up a half tank in > the spring. Evaporation of light ends can be a factor. If your tank is airtight, and you leave it full, you extend the life of the fuel considerably. >> I have heard that some of the problem relates to what is left behind >> after gas evaporates vs. what evaporates. You end up with a lot [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >you leave it >full, you extend the life of the fuel considerably. I know of no airtight tank. They are all vented or they would develop a vacuum that would prevent gas flow. >>> I have heard that some of the problem relates to what is left behind >>> after gas evaporates vs. what evaporates. You end up with a lot [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I know of no airtight tank. They are all vented or they would develop a > vacuum that would prevent gas flow. I don't know if there's such a thing as a tank that could be "airtight enough" but there are certainly plenty of "close to airtight" tanks. This is generally not a problem with auto engines, because we don't leave the car sitting that long. It's a problem we're very familiar with in a.e.homepower, because generators often _do_ sit around that long. My Honda genny has a valve that needs to be opened for it to run (because otherwise there would be a vacuum). In fact, I have to open up the tank cap a quarter turn, too.  Signatureerek >>> I have heard that some of the problem relates to what is left behind >>> after gas evaporates vs. what evaporates. You end up with a lot [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I know of no airtight tank. They are all vented or they would develop a >vacuum that would prevent gas flow. Ever worked with a chain saw? Definitely a sealed tank - and it is pressurized, it does not develop a vacuum. Most automotive tanks today are also "sealed" They build up pressure as well - but they DO have a vacuum relief valve to let air in if required. They do NOT allow vapours out. There are laws in many stated that actualy require ethanol to be added into gasoline. Ethanol does not mix with gasoline if it has just few% of water. Moisture tends to cause separation of (wet) ethanolic layer that settles as droplets on the bottom of the fuel tank. That is why this enviro-crapo corporate-subsidy ethanolic gas has to be anhydrous and is usualy directly blended at the gas station, not in the refinery. MTBE does not have such moisture - related separation problem. > There are laws in many stated that actualy require ethanol to be added > into gasoline. Ethanol does not mix with gasoline if it has just few% [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and is usualy directly blended at the gas station, not in the refinery. > MTBE does not have such moisture - related separation problem. Get enough water into the gas and it will separate no matter what additives are used. Look before you buy gasoline additives...some are pure methanol, perhaps the least compatible additive with water. These are cheap, dont do much. Ethanol is better, isopropanol better still, EGMBE better still where water is concerned. But you can overextend any of them. Imidazolines and alkoxylated amines can improve the synergy of the blend by formation of micellar systems. The amine based products (cationics) often help dissolve the sludges in engines, fuel injectors, etc. The deposits are often caused by oxidation, or concentration of gasoline additives by evaporation, and which are often anionic. BHT (butyrated hydroxytoluene) has been added as an antioxidant in stabilizer formulations. As Daniel Stern said, good stabilizers are real. They are synergistic blends and do a good job. MTBE is a good additive technically, but is an environmental target...I tend to think it is less of an issue than the moaners assert, but have not seen the biodegradation data to be able to substantiate that. The problem with MTBE is that is has a strong camphor-like smell / flavor and is somewhat water soluble so a it can spoil a lot of water wells if the storage reservoirs are leaky. Environazis should go after the pump station poluters, not gas manufacturers. MTBE has a very low toxicity but does not belong in drinking water. > The problem with MTBE is that is has a strong camphor-like smell / > flavor and is somewhat water soluble so a it can spoil a lot of water > wells if the storage reservoirs are leaky. Environazis should go after > the pump station poluters, not gas manufacturers. > > MTBE has a very low toxicity but does not belong in drinking water. From what I understand, Muha...and I have not been interested enough to check it out personally...MTBE is a suspect carcinogen based on animal tests, but the levels normally encountered in ground waters are much below the expected danger level. The contamination of surface waters may not be so much an issue with tanks, leaky reservoirs, and automobile applications...It may be the fact that boating enthusiasts often leak a good bit of gasoline into lakes and streams. It is suggested that levels of 30 micrograms per litre or more would indicate a point source such as a leaky underground storage system. Our group never had any reason to test MTBE for biodegradability but I would suspect that for inland waters, etc, (where agriculture, animals, and human activities make bacterial populations rather sophisticated) it might well be biodegraded. >> The problem with MTBE is that is has a strong camphor-like smell / >> flavor and is somewhat water soluble so a it can spoil a lot of water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >tests, but the levels normally encountered in ground waters are much below >the expected danger level. US regulatory rules -- as well as "public" sentiment -- make a carcinogen at any level a serious problem. The public has a poor understanding of dose or risk. But it is the taste that forces attention on MTBE. It does make the water taste funny, and with its reputation as a carcinogen, it was inevitable that its usage would be stopped. There is some work on biodegradation, but, clearly, natural biodegradation is inadequate. (I recall there was work showing that some bacterium oxidized the methyl group, attaching an -OH -- thus creating a hemiacetal. I can look up the ref if someone wants it.) bob >The contamination of surface waters may not be so much an issue with tanks, >leaky reservoirs, and automobile applications...It may be the fact that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >human activities make bacterial populations rather sophisticated) it might >well be biodegraded. > But it is the taste that forces attention on MTBE. It does make the > water taste funny, and with its reputation as a carcinogen, it was > inevitable that its usage would be stopped. Well, that and heavy contribution to both political parties by Archer Daniels Midland, the company that makes virtually all the fuel-grade ethanol in the United States -- ethanol being MTBE's primary competitor in the fuel oxygenate market. >> But it is the taste that forces attention on MTBE. It does make the >> water taste funny, and with its reputation as a carcinogen, it was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ethanol in the United States -- ethanol being MTBE's primary competitor in > the fuel oxygenate market. And that's EXACTLY why refiners chose MTBE as their octane-enhancer/oxgenate additive. MTBE use meant being independent of ADM, which was surely waiting with bated breath for legislators to force refiners to use ethanol in gasoline. They are selling MTBE to Canadian gasoline refiners. The Canadian Gov't tried to ban it a few years ago, but was then facing a law suit from the American MTBE manufacturer. Under NAFTA rules, a gov't can't ban an existing trade activity without compensation. So the spineless Cdn gov't backed down. "Bob" <bbx107@excite.com.XXXX> wrote in message > But it is the taste that forces attention on MTBE. It does make the > water taste funny, and with its reputation as a carcinogen, it was > inevitable that its usage would be stopped. > They are selling MTBE to Canadian gasoline refiners. The Canadian Gov't > tried to ban it a few years ago, but was then facing a law suit from the > American MTBE manufacturer. Under NAFTA rules, a gov't can't ban an > existing trade activity without compensation. So the spineless Cdn > gov't backed down. The additive you're referring to here isn't MTBE, it's MMT. >> The problem with MTBE is that is has a strong camphor-like smell / >> flavor and is somewhat water soluble so a it can spoil a lot of water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > tests, but the levels normally encountered in ground waters are much below > the expected danger level. There are MANY components of gasoline which would be a suspected carcinogen. Don't drink or breath the stuff, and it will not be a problem. > The contamination of surface waters may not be so much an issue with > tanks, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > human activities make bacterial populations rather sophisticated) it might > well be biodegraded. >> There are laws in many stated that actualy require ethanol to be added >> into gasoline. Ethanol does not mix with gasoline if it has just few% [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> and is usualy directly blended at the gas station, not in the refinery. >> MTBE does not have such moisture - related separation problem. Ethanol is blended at the terminal, not the station. The terminal sells gasoline wholesale to 10,000 gallon tanker trucks, which deliver it to the retail outlets. > Get enough water into the gas and it will separate no matter what > additives [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > data to be able > to substantiate that. > >> There are laws in many stated that actualy require ethanol to be added > >> into gasoline. Ethanol does not mix with gasoline if it has just few% [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > data to be able > > to substantiate that. You sort of blended my post with Muha's. Not a big deal, since I agree the ethanol goes in at the terminal. (I have seen one or two instances where service stations play fast and loose with their gasoline. A few have been caught blending in whatever they can get cheaply...not prime fuel....These can give you a world of trouble, and can earn the scamming station personnel some legal problems) > Does gasoline really "spoil" in a month as Consumer Reports reports? > . Proof at: http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs42&d=05333&f=gasoline.gif [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > What does the "stabilizer" do? > My scooter sits idly for more than a month (am I damaging it)? The constituents of gasoline not in a completely sealed container vary from the day it is mixed. Now, how much does the mixture have to change before it is considered spoiled? That is a hard one. I don't recall if Consumer Reports article gave their criteria for considering it "spoiled". I have occasionally let a batch of gasoline sit all winter, and successfully used it in the lawnmower in the spring. Of course, sitting in a cold garage, it changes less rapidly than in the hot summer. It is not likely that you harm your engine. The usual problem is that the most volatile components (the ones with the lowest boiling temperature) boil away first. The result is a gasoline that is hard to start in colder weather. As long as it starts okay, it probably will not harm your engine. > Does gasoline really "spoil" in a month as Consumer Reports reports? > . Proof at: http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs42&d=05333&f=gasoline.gif [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > What does the "stabilizer" do? > My scooter sits idly for more than a month (am I damaging it)? The gas tank on your mower is probably not airtight, but probably airtight enough that evaporation is not an issue, even for several months. But fuel does varnish when the more volatile components evaporate over time. A month? No. Unless you are storing it in the most improper manner (leaving the tank cap off, exposing the gas to water, etc) it will last well over a month. The "reformulated gas" most of us use today actually hold up better in storage than the stuff we used to use. I would store the mower with a full tank whenever possible. Be careful about over filling as a sigificant increase in temperature may cause gas to expand enough that it overflows. The reason for keeping the tank full is to mitigate water contamination - probably the most common kind of contamination the results from storage. > Does gasoline really "spoil" in a month No, generally not. Gasoline does deteriorate with age -- the lighter factions evaporate, and its antiknock ("octane") value decreases, but certainly not in a month to the degree that a lawnmower won't be perfectly happy to start and run on it. Three or four or five months, yes, but not one. If gasoline has enough air exposure for "spoilage" to be a concern in a month, it has enough air exposure to evaporate in less than that time. > as Consumer Reports reports? Ah. Well, there you are -- yet more baseless pseudoscientific bullshit from Condemner Retards. > What does the "stabilizer" do? Gasoline stabilizer (such as Sta-Bil) is real. It retards oxidation in long-term storage. It's available at most any hardware or auto parts store, and, when added to the fuel of an engine that's about to be laid-up for an extended period (such as a lawnmower over winter), it makes startup easier the following season. > My scooter sits idly for more than a month (am I damaging it)? Considerably less than you're damaging your brain by believing any of the selfgratulatory bilge Condemner Retards prints. DS > > Does gasoline really "spoil" in a month > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > DS I've got to agree there, CR is about the least reputable source of information I've ever seen. They even make the IIHS look reputable. Pete C. In the quoted snippet (http://xs.to/xs.php?h=xs42&d=05333&f=gasoline.gif ) Consumers reports clearly stated gasoline spoils after one month. I assume Consumers Report has qualified engineering reasons for stating that on paper (otherwise, why would they print it and extoll the virtue of the gas-cap stabilizer)? Don't you? > > Does gasoline really "spoil" in a month > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > DS Gasoline does tend to go "stale" after about a month or so. That's why farmers who regularly use small engines (chainsaws, brushcutters, mowers, etc.) make sure that they either use the fuel in about a month or add stabilizer to the fuel. Stihl, a major chainsaw maker, is so concerned about it, that they already add stabilizer to their two-cycle oil so that users avoid the problem. The main problem i've experienced is "varnish" that gums up the carb. Problem is probably less acute in a large gasoline engine, but I still would not want to risk several hundred dollars by "taking a chance." > Gasoline does tend to go "stale" after about a month or so. That's why > farmers who regularly use small engines (chainsaws, brushcutters, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Problem is probably less acute in a large gasoline engine, but I still > would not want to risk several hundred dollars by "taking a chance." It's not the gas going "stale" in a month, it's the evaporation from the carb jets leaving gum/varnish clogging the jets. If you take two clean engines and run one on day old gas and one on year old gas that has been stored in a sealed container you will find that both run just fine. Fuel injected engines won't have this problem since the fuel injectors will be closed and there will be little or no gas to evaporate from the nozzle. I have a Shindaiwa chain saw (fantastic engines BTW) that will happily sit all winter with half a tank of 2 cycle mix in it and then fire right up on the second pull in the spring after the tank is topped off. Pete C. Good luck with that saw in the long-run! In the meantime, you might want to do the research I mentioned earlier and see just what you are doing to your engine. > Good luck with that saw in the long-run! It'll be fine. > In the meantime, you might want to do the research I mentioned > earlier and see just what you are doing to your engine. No thanks, I know its pig ignorant crap. Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. Old gas collects moisture. Old gas is harder to ignite. Old gas causes equipment to run hotter. Octane levels drop Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. But, since I really don't care what the rest of the world does with their engines, find your own path. I have to hit the county fair! > Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have > to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. Pathetic, really. > Old gas collects moisture. Wont do the engine any harm. > Old gas is harder to ignite. Wont do the engine any harm. > Old gas causes equipment to run hotter. Bullshit. > Octane levels drop Wont do the engine any harm. > Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines Lie. > and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. Another lie. > But, since I really don't care what the rest of the world does with > their engines, find your own path. I have to hit the county fair! As the freak show no doubt. > > Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have > > to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Wont do the engine any harm. Corrosion? > > Old gas is harder to ignite. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Wont do the engine any harm. Low Octane can lead to detonation....big harm > > Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines > > Lie. You obviously haven't rebuilt carbs on engines that have sat for any length of time. I've seen emulsion tubes *completely* plugged > > and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. > > Another lie. Basis? K. Jones > > > Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have > > > to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Corrosion? Nope, not if you're running the engine on it. > > > Old gas is harder to ignite. > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Low Octane can lead to detonation....big harm Octane rating should increase if anything and that would be after the gas was quite old, not a month old. On a car the computer would simply adjust the timing to eliminate detonation so perhaps it wouldn't give peak performance on really old gas, but it would not harm the engine. On a small engine like a mower it would likely make little difference. > > > Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of time. > I've seen emulsion tubes *completely* plugged That's not a function of old gas, that is a function of not shutting off the fuel supply and letting the engine run dry before storage. If the engine is not run dry then the gas will evaporate leaving gum/varnish to clog up the carb. If you have run the mower dry before storage and then open the fuel valve and start the engine on the old gas in the tank you will get no clogging in the carb. > > > and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. > > > > Another lie. > > Basis? As long as the engine starts and runs on it, the old gas isn't going to harm it. It may not run at peak performance, but no damage will be done. > K. Jones Pete C. > > > > Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have > > > > to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Nope, not if you're running the engine on it. Running the engine on what, water? > > > > Old gas is harder to ignite. > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > peak performance on really old gas, but it would not harm the engine. On > a small engine like a mower it would likely make little difference. Octane increases as the gas sits? curious.......cite? There is only so big a window that timing can be adjusted, and there are more engines out there that do not have knock sensors than there are ones that do. BTW, the knock sensors in a commercially produced engine are not infallible. > > > > Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > open the fuel valve and start the engine on the old gas in the tank you > will get no clogging in the carb. No, it was a function of an engine just sitting unused. Many engines do not have a fuel supply "shut off". This spring I rebuilt a carb on a ski boat with an inline 4 cyl inboard, that had just sat on the trailer since last summer. The engine would start, but it would idle rough, stumble on accelleration, and had almost no power. The floatbowl had not been "run dry" before it was stored, and the carb was gummed up beyond belief. This (carb rebuild) had become an annual tradition whenever gas stabilizer was not added in the fall. K. Jones > > > > and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Pete C. > > > > > Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have > > > > > to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Running the engine on what, water? If the water content is low enough that the engine will run on the gas, there will be absolutely no damage to the engine. The engine may not be running at it's best, but once you put in non water laden gas it will be back to normal. Water laden gas passing through the engine while it's running will not corrode anything either, the water laden gas would have to sit in the lines for an extended time for that to happen. Remember this thread is supposed to be about how long gas takes to spoil, not about how to damage your engine by storing it improperly. If you take year old gas from a sealed container and put it in a properly maintained engine and run it, it will operate just fine and not damage anything. > > > > > Old gas is harder to ignite. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > BTW, the knock sensors in a commercially produced engine are not > infallible. Octane is more-or-less a measure of the flash point of gasoline. If the gasoline is allowed to sit for an extended period of time open to the air, the more volatile components will evaporate away leaving the less volatile components and increasing the flash point / octane. If the gas is stored in a sealed container this will not happen and there will be little change in the flash point / octane. More engines without knock sensors? Any auto built in the last couple decades will have a knock sensor. Certainly small engines do not have them, but they also usually have lower compression ratios and are less prone to knock to begin with. > > > > > Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines > > > > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > This (carb rebuild) had become an annual tradition whenever gas stabilizer > was not added in the fall. Bingo, "a function of an engine just sitting unused" without proper storage preparation. It is not a function of damage from old gas it is a function of the lack of proper storage prep. The old gasoline did not "spoil" and then clog up the engine when it was provided to the engine, a small amount of gasoline was allowed to remain in the carb and evaporate and that is what gummed up the engine. Again, take a properly maintained and stored engine and fuel it with year old gas that has been stored in a sealed container and it will run just fine and the carb will not become clogged during normal operation. Proper storage of an engine and the shelf life of gasoline are not the same thing. Pete C. > K. Jones > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > Pete C. > > > > > > Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have > > > > > > to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Remember this thread is supposed to be about how long gas takes to > spoil, not about how to damage your engine by storing it improperly. Threads, conversations, meander. Sitting water does infact, corrode. > If you take year old gas from a sealed container and put it in a > properly maintained engine and run it, it will operate just fine and not > damage anything. No arguement. > > > > > > Old gas is harder to ignite. > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Octane is more-or-less a measure of the flash point of gasoline. Not exactly See: http://chemistry.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.repairfaq.org/ filipg/AUTO/F%5FGasoline6.html for a slightly more comprehensive description of what a gasolines octane rating means. Or : http://chemistry.about.com/cs/howthingswork/a/aa070401a_2.htm for a brief description. > If the > gasoline is allowed to sit for an extended period of time open to the > air, the more volatile components will evaporate away leaving the less > volatile components and increasing the flash point / octane. Actually, that's opposite to what happens to the "octane" From : http://chemistry.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.repairfaq.org/ filipg/AUTO/F%5FGasoline6.html section 6.12 "Front End Volatility Paraffins are the major component in gasoline, and the octane number decreases with increasing chain length or ring size, but increases with chain branching. Overall, the effect is a significant reduction in octane if front end volatility is lost, as can happen with improper or long term storage. Fuel economy on short trips can be improved by using a more volatile fuel, at the risk of carburettor icing and increased evaporative emissions." There is a "significant reduction in octane if front end volatility is lost, as can happen with improper or long term storage". > If the gas > is stored in a sealed container this will not happen and there will be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > them, but they also usually have lower compression ratios and are less > prone to knock to begin with. Yes, most cars on the road in North America will have knock sensors. Millions upon millions of engines in other uses, such as many motorcycles, marine engines, industrial stationary engines, and consumer goods do not. Modern automobile engines are but a significant fraction of engines in use. > > > > > > Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > storage preparation. It is not a function of damage from old gas it is a > function of the lack of proper storage prep. Uhhh, if there wasn't any gas in the carbs, there wouldn't have been anything to varnish them and cause the problems. It *is* the "stale" gas that gummed up the works. > The old gasoline did not > "spoil" and then clog up the engine when it was provided to the engine, > a small amount of gasoline was allowed to remain in the carb and > evaporate and that is what gummed up the engine. Huh? You just said the old gasoline did not "spoil" and then clog up the engine, then in the same sentence you said it was the gasoline evaporating that gummed up the engine. You appear to be somewhat confused. An engine is the sum of many parts, and a carb being one of those parts (obviously only in a carburetted engine). K. Jones > > > > > > > Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have > > > > > > > to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 162 lines] > > K. Jones Old gasoline did not "spoil" and clog up the carb, it was allowed to evaporate in place and this would happen with fresh gas or old gas. It is not the same thing as gas "spoiling". As noted, gas stored for more than one month is alleged to "spoil". If this were true, taking said "spoiled" gas from a sealed container and introducing it to your otherwise healthy engine should cause problems, but the fact is that it does not and will not. Allowing day old gas to evaporate in a carb will cause just as much of a problem as allowing year old gas to evaporate in a carb. Neither is a function of gas "spoiling" from age. Pete C. >>>>>>> Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have >>>>>>> to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > There is a "significant reduction in octane if front end volatility > is lost, as can happen with improper or long term storage". Nothing to do with what was being discussed, STALE FUEL. Thats improper storage which allows the more volatile components to evaporate. >> If the gas >> is stored in a sealed container this will not happen and there will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> them, but they also usually have lower compression ratios and are >> less prone to knock to begin with. > Yes, most cars on the road in North America will have knock sensors. > Millions upon millions of engines in other uses, such as many > motorcycles, marine engines, industrial stationary engines, and > consumer goods do not. And they dont generally see much knocking, even when the fuel has been improperly stored and allowed to partially evaporate. Again, absolutely nothing to do with STALE FUEL. > Modern automobile engines are but a significant fraction of engines in use. See above. >>>>>>> Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> storage preparation. It is not a function of damage from old gas it >> is a function of the lack of proper storage prep. > Uhhh, if there wasn't any gas in the carbs, there wouldn't > have been anything to varnish them and cause the problems. > It *is* the "stale" gas that gummed up the works. Wrong, its ANY FUEL. >> The old gasoline did not >> "spoil" and then clog up the engine when it was provided to the >> engine, a small amount of gasoline was allowed to remain in the carb >> and evaporate and that is what gummed up the engine. > Huh? You just said the old gasoline did not "spoil" and then clog up > the engine, then in the same sentence you said it was the gasoline > evaporating that gummed up the engine. You appear to be somewhat > confused. Crap, you are. You'll get the same effect with FRESH FUEL and STALE FUEL with that gumming seen with an engine which is stored incorrectly. > An engine is the sum of many parts, and a carb being one > of those parts (obviously only in a carburetted engine). Pathetic, really. >>>>>>> Don't know why I'm replying to Rod, I'm bored, but I have >>>>>>> to leave in a few moments, so might as well pull the trigger. [quoted text clipped - 91 lines] > There is a "significant reduction in octane if front end volatility > is lost, as can happen with improper or long term storage". Nothing to do with what was being discussed, STALE FUEL. Thats improper storage which allows the more volatile components to evaporate. >> If the gas >> is stored in a sealed container this will not happen and there will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> them, but they also usually have lower compression ratios and are >> less prone to knock to begin with. > Yes, most cars on the road in North America will have knock sensors. > Millions upon millions of engines in other uses, such as many > motorcycles, marine engines, industrial stationary engines, and > consumer goods do not. And they dont generally see much knocking, even when the fuel has been improperly stored and allowed to partially evaporate. Again, absolutely nothing to do with STALE FUEL. > Modern automobile engines are but a significant fraction of engines in use. See above. >>>>>>> Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> storage preparation. It is not a function of damage from old gas it >> is a function of the lack of proper storage prep. > Uhhh, if there wasn't any gas in the carbs, there wouldn't > have been anything to varnish them and cause the problems. > It is the "stale" gas that gummed up the works. Wrong, its ANY FUEL. >> The old gasoline did not >> "spoil" and then clog up the engine when it was provided to the >> engine, a small amount of gasoline was allowed to remain in the carb >> and evaporate and that is what gummed up the engine. > Huh? You just said the old gasoline did not "spoil" and then clog up > the engine, then in the same sentence you said it was the gasoline > evaporating that gummed up the engine. You appear to be somewhat > confused. Crap, you are. You'll get the same effect with FRESH FUEL and STALE FUEL with that gumming seen with an engine which is stored incorrectly. > An engine is the sum of many parts, and a carb being one > of those parts (obviously only in a carburetted engine). Pathetic, really. > If the water content is low enough that the engine will run on the gas, > there will be absolutely no damage to the engine. The engine may not be > running at it's best, but once you put in non water laden gas it will be > back to normal. I wonder what water would do to the octane equivalent? I'd suspect it would RAISE the octane but folks already reprimanded me and said stale gasoline actually burns "better" (from an octane standpoint) than fresh gas. I would have thought stale gas would have burned "worse" (from an octane standpoint) but they said the "spoiling" process actually makes the gas burn better (from an octane standpoint), i.e., with a lower anti-knock index. > Remember this thread is supposed to be about how long gas takes to > spoil, not about how to damage your engine by storing it improperly. It doesn't seem like anyone really knows the answer but almost everyone says the spoiling process (which reputedly makes gas burn better with respect to octane rating) doesn't occur much in the month that Consumer Reports gives it. Most seem to think six months to a year is the time it takes to spoil a gas (which actually makes it burn better with respect to octane rating, oddly enough). > > > Octane rating should increase if anything and that would be after the > > > gas was quite old, not a month old. On a car the computer would simply > > > adjust the timing to eliminate detonation so perhaps it wouldn't give > > > peak performance on really old gas, but it would not harm the engine. On > > > a small engine like a mower it would likely make little difference. See! There it is again! I thought the SAME THING! I figured that "spoiled" gas, by losing the volatiles, would burn "slower" (oh how I wish I had an adjective that correlated to the AKI as I know slower is meaningful only if you know what I mean already). But people have corrected me by saying the spoiled gas (which has lost its low-end volatiles) actually burns "better" (in that the octane rating falls, if you can believe that). So which is it? - The volatile boiling off spoiling of gas makes it spontaneously combust "better" (i.e., lower AKI) or it makes it combust "worse" (i.e., higher AKI)? > So which is it? > - The volatile boiling off spoiling of gas makes it spontaneously > combust "better" (i.e., lower AKI) or it makes it combust "worse" > (i.e., higher AKI)? Ooops. Nevermind. I see my error. I just saw the post which refers to the change in paraffins during storage. http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/AUTO/F%5FGasoline6.html section 6.12 "Front End Volatility: Paraffins are the major component in gasoline, and the octane number decreases with increasing chain length or ring size, but increases with chain branching. Overall, the effect is a significant reduction in octane if front end volatility is lost, as can happen with improper or long term storage." So, my three-step simplification is now: A. AKI goes UP with increased hydrocarbon branching ... B. AKI goes DOWN with increasing chain length C. AKI goes DOWN with increased "improper" storage Therefore, I must tentatively conclude that the "volatiles" that are boiling off must be more the larger chain length alkanes than the branched alkanes. Am I closer to what is going on? C. Apparently, the more longer-chain hydrocarbons you have, the >No, it was a function of an engine just sitting unused. Many engines do not >have a fuel supply "shut off". [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >K. Jones I had a customer for many years with an E-Type Jag that was stored in a heated garage every winter. Every spring it was towed in and we went through the carbs. The customer was getting sick of it, and so was I - so I told him to get 5 gallons of AvGas next time he was out to the airport and to drive the Jag 'till it ran out of gas, then pour the AvGas in, bring it in for an oil change, and put it away for the winter.He did that for the next 5 years. Never touched the carbs after that. Car started first try each spring - usually without benefit of the choke. >> > > > and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. >> > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Pete C. > Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote >>> Old gas collects moisture. >> Wont do the engine any harm. > Corrosion? Nope. The moisture can only corrode in the fuel system, not the engine and the fuel system should be designed to handle moisture thats inevitable even in fresh fuel. Moisture wont be a problem when the fuel is burnt with the engine running corrosion wise because exhaust gasses have moisture in them anyway and the exhaust system has to be designed to handle that. >>> Old gas is harder to ignite. >> Wont do the engine any harm. >>> Old gas causes equipment to run hotter. >> Bullshit. >>> Octane levels drop >> Wont do the engine any harm. > Low Octane can lead to detonation....big harm Not with the octane levels seen with the fuel in your tank for a month or six months either. And fuel tanks are designed to minimise fuel evaporation anyway, just because evaporated fuel is bad for the environment. >>> Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines >> Lie. > You obviously haven't rebuilt carbs on > engines that have sat for any length of time. Fraid I have, and that aint DAMAGE THE ENGINE. > I've seen emulsion tubes *completely* plugged Only with ones badly enough designed to see significant evaporation of the fuel in the carb. >>> and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. >> Another lie. > Basis? See above. Even a blocked carb tube wont damage the engine, at worst it will run rough until fixed. And plenty of us have found that engines left unused for the winter start and run fine when used again too. >> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >>> Bullshit. Moisture in gasoline can cause corrosion in the fuel system - which last time I checked was part of the engine - particularly the carburetor or fuel injectors. Moisture in a carb can also restrict the flow of fuel, which can cause an engine to run lean under load - which WILL cause the engine to overheat - which in turn WILL damage the engine. Very common occurrence in snowmobile engines. Gasoline that has evaporated off the light ends DOES lose effective octane rating - which on L head engine like most older lawnmowers, is not an issue with compression ratios on the low side og 6:1. On today's OHV engines, running closer to 8.5:1, reduced octane IS an issue. Add to that the fact that the "evaporated" gas has a higher specific gravity, and requires more vacuum to draw the gasoline into the engine, and the engine will run lean with "stale" gas. This can also cause the engine to overheat. >>>> Octane levels drop > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >And fuel tanks are designed to minimise fuel evaporation anyway, >just because evaporated fuel is bad for the environment. Very late model equipment is designed for this - but because the beancounters have more to say about how the machine is built than the engineers do, the measures taken to reduce evaporation seldom last beyond the first season of use. >>>> Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >See above. Even a blocked carb tube wont damage >the engine, at worst it will run rough until fixed. See above. Run an engine at over about 60% power lean of peak, and it WILL overheat and or detonate - which WILL damage the engine long term. >And plenty of us have found that engines left unused >for the winter start and run fine when used again too. More left over the winter than left over the summer. I personally have found less problems with winter stored summer equipment than with summer stored winter equipment. <nospam.clare.nce@ | >>>> Old gas collects moisture. | > [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] | found less problems with winter stored summer equipment than with | summer stored winter equipment. It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel from aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. We would use the salvage avgas to run the base motor pool for several months afterward. ditto the base flying club. The question came down to if the use was 'mission' critical. Remote bases in Alaska get fuel each summer and still have some at the end of the next season. We likewise maintain remote transmitter sites powered by gen sets. These get fuel twice a year spring and fall been that way for years and never had a problem with stale fuel. > It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel from > aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. We would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > by gen sets. These get fuel twice a year spring and fall been that way for > years and never had a problem with stale fuel. Isn't the fuel you are talking about kerosene? It doesn't have the volatiles, like gasoline. Diesel will last for many many years, (If not relatively indefinitely), if stored in a sealed container and a shaded location. Best, Dan. SignatureAdd one for email > > It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel > > from aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. > > We would use the salvage avgas to run the base motor pool for several > > months afterward. > Isn't the fuel you are talking about kerosene? He specifically said *avgas*, as in "Aviation Gasoline". >>>It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel >>>from aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > He specifically said *avgas*, as in "Aviation Gasoline". Ok. I didn't think the military used much gasoline. But I did ask, not claim. Best, Dan. SignatureAdd one for email | >>>It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel | >>>from aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | Ok. I didn't think the military used much gasoline. But I did ask, not | claim. I'm retired now and my military time is long past but I think I qualified this in the first post. > > It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel from > > aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. We would [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Best, Dan. JP, kerosene, etc for aviation, IMHO, carries a different set of liabilities. At the refineries, corrosion inhibitors which are applied in the distillation units must not make the fuel retain emulsified water. A test called Water Saturation Index Modified (WSIM) is performed to be sure the fuel going to sale has acceptable water emulsification properties. We commonly see jet fuel pumped into storage which has a layer of water at the bottom of the tank. Fungi, particularly Cladisporium resinae, can grow in the interface, producing slime masses. Other bacteria can grow in the water layer, often producing sulfide gas. Guess what happens then? Chopper crews in the venues I am familiar with routinely perform a water test on the fuel at refueling. Filtration, centrifugation, and chemical stabilization along with fuel testing help keep flights in the air. Same exact biology happens in diesel marine use. Usually the finished fuel in storage is stabilized against bacterial growth by adding a compound or formulation which will partition into both the water and into the fuel, inhibiting bacterial growth. Only a few chemicals are type accepted for these applications. The product must not emulsify the water into the fuel, and itself must not cause problems within the diesel or turbine. Gasoline doesn't present quite the same problems for a number of reasons. But if water is there in the fuel tank, bacterial and fungal growth are always possible. Snotty bacterial slimes are hard to get through a filter and fuel induction system. And if you get a corroded fuel tank, it wont be long until you sputter to a stop with plugged filters, etc. > > It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel from > > aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. We would [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > relatively indefinitely), if stored in a sealed container and a shaded > location. Like it was said elsewhere - AV gas. It must have been a long time ago, since it's typically leaded. Some military jet fuel isn't 100% kerosene. I was taking a public tour of several Navy ships, and you could smell the JP-4, which is 65% gasoline. They use it to run the turbines. "Dan Bloomquist" | > It's been more years than I care to count but the military pulls fuel from | > aircraft after one month due to the possibility of contamination. We would [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] | relatively indefinitely), if stored in a sealed container and a shaded | location. As to fuel: no, not kerosene (aka JP4) but avgas some as high as 140 octane. As to the other locations the fuel varies from propane, to natural gas, to standard gas to diesel. BTW diesel will 'spoil' over time even if in a sealed container due to a 'mold' (not the right word but similar in process) regardless I've never in over 40 years had fuel go bad in 90 days much less 30 days. > BTW diesel will 'spoil' over time even if > in a sealed container due to a 'mold' (not the right word but similar in > process) regardless I've never in over 40 years had fuel go bad in 90 days > much less 30 days. Only if it is contaminated in the first place...... I have seen cases of 30 and 50 year old #1 Diesel, and #2 Diesel, stored in 10K USG Tanks being used with no problems, and no significant residue in the Primary Filters after using the complete tank..... Me > Only if it is contaminated in the first place...... I have seen cases of > 30 and 50 year old #1 Diesel, and #2 Diesel, stored in 10K USG Tanks > being used with no problems, and no significant residue in the Primary > Filters after using the complete tank..... > Me I dont agree with this totally. I bought some diesel from a local station to use in lab tests, and kept it tightly closed in a Nalgene (plastic) container. In a couple of weeks, I noticed precipitation. It soon began to look like a dog's breakfast...a real mess. Some potential clients for lab work came in with their diesel injector parts in their hand and a bottle of 'diesel'. They had been filling at a different station (trust your car to the man who wears the star). You could tell by the smell this wasn't diesel. I called the oil company who should have been supplying this diesel, and sent them a sample for analysis...Guess what...not only was it not theirs, it wasnt even diesel...It was an alphamethylstyrene stream from a nearby refinery. Any wet diesel can become bacterially contaminated unless it is purposely treated in storage. Good diesel is considerably more stable than the nightmare concoctions I reference above. > Any wet diesel can become bacterially contaminated unless it is purposely > treated in storage. The bugs you are refering to are NOT Airborne...So any contamination must come in thru the filler pipe. If you have claen fuel going in, to your clean tank, you will have clean fuel coming out of your tank. Me > > Any wet diesel can become bacterially contaminated unless it is purposely > > treated in storage. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Me I am afraid your microbiology is lacking. Cladisporium is a mold, and its spores ARE airborne. It is very common Nor is Cladisporium r. the only microorganism which is ubiquitous and can thrive in these environs. Pseudomonas a. can grow in wet hydrocarbons and convert at least part of it to amino acids, particularly glutamic. Pseudomonas is everywhere and has been cultured and (perhaps) optimized commercially for bioremediation of oil spills. Some of these microorganism produce snotty slimy polysaccharides as part of their metabolic process. For a Briggs and Stratton engine, just keep the fuel fresh, or stabilize it, and forget it. Or don't, as you wish. For commercial users where hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel are stored for offtake, or where fuel may stay in tanks for weeks (commercial fishing, etc) chemical and biological stabilization of fuel makes sense. > Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote >>>>> Old gas collects moisture. >>>> Wont do the engine any harm. >>> Corrosion? >> Nope. The moisture can only corrode in the fuel system, >> not the engine and the fuel system should be designed >> to handle moisture thats inevitable even in fresh fuel. >> Moisture wont be a problem when the fuel is burnt with the engine >> running corrosion wise because exhaust gasses have moisture in >> them anyway and the exhaust system has to be designed to handle that. >>>>> Old gas is harder to ignite. >>>> Wont do the engine any harm. >>>>> Old gas causes equipment to run hotter. >>>> Bullshit. > Moisture in gasoline can cause corrosion in the fuel system Pity that moisture in gasoline is possible even with fresh gasoline. > - which last time I checked was part of the engine > - particularly the carburetor or fuel injectors. > Moisture in a carb can also restrict the flow of fuel, Pity that moisture in gasoline is possible even with fresh gasoline. > which can cause an engine to run lean under load - which WILL > cause the engine to overheat - which in turn WILL damage the > engine. Very common occurrence in snowmobile engines. Bullshit. And nothing to do with whether the gasoline is fresh or not. > Gasoline that has evaporated off the light ends DOES lose > effective octane rating - which on L head engine like most > older lawnmowers, is not an issue with compression ratios > on the low side og 6:1. On today's OHV engines, running > closer to 8.5:1, reduced octane IS an issue. Bullshit as far as DAMAGE TO THE ENGINE is concerned. > Add to that the fact that the "evaporated" gas has a higher > specific gravity, and requires more vacuum to draw the > gasoline into the engine, and the engine will run lean with > "stale" gas. This can also cause the engine to overheat. Bullshit. >>>>> Octane levels drop >>>> Wont do the engine any harm. >>> Low Octane can lead to detonation....big harm >> Not with the octane levels seen with the fuel >> in your tank for a month or six months either. >> And fuel tanks are designed to minimise fuel evaporation anyway, >> just because evaporated fuel is bad for the environment. > Very late model equipment is designed for this - but because > the beancounters have more to say about how the machine > is built than the engineers do, the measures taken to reduce > evaporation seldom last beyond the first season of use. Bullshit. >>>>> Old gas gums up the small passages in small engines >>>> Lie. >>> You obviously haven't rebuilt carbs on >>> engines that have sat for any length of time. >> Fraid I have, and that aint DAMAGE THE ENGINE. >>> I've seen emulsion tubes *completely* plugged >> Only with ones badly enough designed to see >> significant evaporation of the fuel in the carb. >>>>> and probably doesn't do larger engines much good, either. >>>> Another lie. >>> Basis? >> See above. Even a blocked carb tube wont damage >> the engine, at worst it will run rough until fixed. > See above. Completely useless. > Run an engine at over about 60% power lean of peak, Taint gunna happen with stale fuel. > and it WILL overheat and or detonate - > which WILL damage the engine long term. Bullshit. >> And plenty of us have found that engines left unused >> for the winter start and run fine when used again too. > More left over the winter than left over the summer. Still bullshit with engines used in winter and not in summer. > I personally have found less problems with winter stored > summer equipment than with summer stored winter equipment. Sure, badly designed carbs can certainly have more of a problem with gum etc when left unused over summer, BUT THAT AINT DAMAGE TO THE ENGINE. Keep desperately digging, you'll be out in china any day now. > > Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > not the engine and the fuel system should be designed > to handle moisture thats inevitable even in fresh fuel. The "fuel system" is part of the engine. Try to run your gasoline engine without one. > Moisture wont be a problem when the fuel is burnt with the engine > running corrosion wise because exhaust gasses have moisture in [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Not with the octane levels seen with the fuel > in your tank for a month or six months either. You have a credible online cite for this pearl of wisdom? > And fuel tanks are designed to minimise fuel evaporation anyway, > just because evaporated fuel is bad for the environment. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Fraid I have, and that aint DAMAGE THE ENGINE. Really? And a piston is not an engine either, neither is a connecting rod, a cylinder head, or a block. By your definition, a worn out block, a blown cylinder head gasket, or frozen piston rings, "aint DAMAGE THE ENGINE". Idiot. Tell you what, remove the carb from your lawnmower and throw it away, and see how useful your "engine" is. Millions of sperm, and you're the one that won the race? *plonk* K. Jones > > I've seen emulsion tubes *completely* plugged > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > And plenty of us have found that engines left unused > for the winter start and run fine when used again too. > Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote >>> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote >>>>> Old gas collects moisture. >>>> Wont do the engine any harm. >>> Corrosion? >> Nope. The moisture can only corrode in the fuel system, >> not the engine and the fuel system should be designed >> to handle moisture thats inevitable even in fresh fuel. > The "fuel system" is part of the engine. Nope. > Try to run your gasoline engine without one. Try to run your car without wheels. That doesnt mean they are part of the engine. >> Moisture wont be a problem when the fuel is burnt with the engine >> running corrosion wise because exhaust gasses have moisture in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >>> Low Octane can lead to detonation....big harm >> Not with the octane levels seen with the fuel >> in your tank for a month or six months either. > You have a credible online cite for this pearl of wisdom? Dont need one. Any tank is designed to minimise the evaporation of the fuel for various reasons, including minimising pollution of the atmosphere due to evaporated fuel, so you dont in fact see any significant change in the octane rating over time. >> And fuel tanks are designed to minimise fuel evaporation anyway, >> just because evaporated fuel is bad for the environment. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> Fraid I have, and that aint DAMAGE THE ENGINE. > Really? Yes, really. > And a piston is not an engine either, neither is a > connecting rod, a cylinder head, or a block. > By your definition, a worn out block, a blown cylinder head gasket, or > frozen piston rings, "aint DAMAGE THE ENGINE". Gum in the carb aint DAMAGE, fuckwit. Its readily fixable. > Idiot. > Tell you what, remove the carb from your lawnmower > and throw it away, and see how useful your "engine" is. > Millions of sperm, and you're the one that won the race? > *plonk* Fat lot of good that will ever do you, you stupid fuckwit plonker. >>> I've seen emulsion tubes *completely* plugged >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> And plenty of us have found that engines left unused >> for the winter start and run fine when used again too. >>Gasoline does tend to go "stale" after about a month or so. That's why >>farmers who regularly use small engines (chainsaws, brushcutters, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Pete C. I had an old dodge van that sat for three years with about four gallons of gas in it. It started right up, but wasn't real happy about the quality of the gas at that point ;~) I have a boat and routinely run on 1+ year old gasoline. I forgot to add stabilizer once or twice, and that did not seem to cause very many problems except for a couple of blowbacks. The boat has a truck style v8 engine, nothing special. I still like to use stabil, but know that even without it, things will continue to run. i > Gasoline does tend to go "stale" after about a month or so. That's why > farmers who regularly use small engines (chainsaws, brushcutters, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Problem is probably less acute in a large gasoline engine, but I still > would not want to risk several hundred dollars by "taking a chance." > I assume Consumers Report has qualified engineering reasons for stating > that on paper (otherwise, why would they print it and extoll the virtue > of the gas-cap stabilizer)? Don't you? Condemner Retards count on your buying into their pseudoscientific assertions. It's what sells their magazine. I have enough direct experience (not hearsay, not formulated opinion, mind you -- I mean direct, firsthand experience) with CR's editors and their information-gathering process to safely assume that nothing CR says is correct. |
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