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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / August 2005

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Setting timing on Mazda 626

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SQ - 20 Aug 2005 19:00 GMT
I just replaced the water pump and the timing belts on this Mazda 626
2.5L V6. Definitely not a novice job, took me two days.

Now that I got everything together through a miracle, the engine will
turn over but not run. The timing needs to be set. The worthless Haynes
manual talks about Top Dead Center (TDC). I don't get it.  What is it I
need to do to set timing on this V6 after the timing belt change?
Thanks in advance.
=AB Paul =BB - 20 Aug 2005 19:07 GMT
> I just replaced the water pump and the timing belts on this Mazda 626
> 2.5L V6. Definitely not a novice job, took me two days.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> need to do to set timing on this V6 after the timing belt change?
> Thanks in advance.

Did you get the cam timing set?
I would not even attempt to run it if you did not.
...Don't even try to crank it.
SQ - 20 Aug 2005 21:01 GMT
I don't know what you mean, cam timing set.
William R. Watt - 20 Aug 2005 22:54 GMT
> I don't know what you mean, cam timing set.

Did the Haynes manual mention either not disturbing the position of the
camshaft(s) and the crankshaft when replacing the belts, or to line up the
timing indicators on the camshaft(s) and crankshaft if you do? If the
shafts get out of sync when the belt is taken off or put on they need to
be put back in sync before the parts are all put back together and the
engine started.

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=AB Paul =BB - 21 Aug 2005 00:40 GMT
> I don't know what you mean, cam timing set.

2.5L 4 cam w/VRIS is a great engine... except for the oil leaking into
the spark plug holes.
Unfortunately I don't remember the cam positions any more.
IIRC, the dots on each set of cams must be facing each other.
You will have to make really, really sure that neither the cams or
crank is 180, or 360 out, and with #1 TDC on compression stoke.
I remember it took awhile to line everything up.
If you don't know what I am talking about, then I sincerely suggest
having it towed to a shop and have it worked on by a tech.
That same engine is in a Ford Probe.
SQ - 21 Aug 2005 06:33 GMT
OK, I got the timing belt set up correctly, except it's one tooth off
on the camshaft.  It's the best I could do.

But I cannot start the car, it is not getting the spark. I haven't yet
put the water pump and the alternator belts back on. Is that the reason
why it doesn't start?  Or is it because it's one tooth off?
Don Bruder - 21 Aug 2005 17:40 GMT
> OK, I got the timing belt set up correctly, except it's one tooth off
> on the camshaft.  It's the best I could do.
>
> But I cannot start the car, it is not getting the spark. I haven't yet
> put the water pump and the alternator belts back on. Is that the reason
> why it doesn't start?  Or is it because it's one tooth off?

Valve-timing must be *EXACTLY* right for things to work. "One tooth off"
is nowhere near "close enough" - there is *ABSOLUTELY NO ROOM* for any
error - It's either set correctly, and the engine runs (although it may
run poorly due to other factors) or it's not, and short of going back in
and redoing the job (PROPERLY this time), nothing you try will get the
engine to run AT ALL. Depending on the engine, one tooth worth of valve
timing error can be enough to punch valves through pistons.

If the timing is screwed up, potential problems range from the quite
mild ("darn, won't start")  to the substantially worse ("It tried to
turn over, but went "CLANK!", and now I can't even rotate the
crankshaft"), to absolute disaster in the form of destruction of the
engine. ("Wow... Look at all these valve-shaped holes in the tops of the
pistons", or "Are you *SURE* valve stems are supposed to look like the
warning sign for a curvy road?", or "I don't recall installing a two
piece camshaft...")

Sounds like you've encountered the "best case" (Won't start) scenario.
Count your blessings (First one being that you didn't punch a valve
through a piston in the process of trying to start a mis-timed engine),
and get back inside to put things back together CORRECTLY.

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William R. Watt - 21 Aug 2005 20:46 GMT
You are dealing with two different kinds of timing.

First there's valve timing which makes the valves open and close when the
piston reaches certain points in its up-and-down motion. Valve timing is
controlled by the timing belt. For it to work the camshaft and the
crankshaft have to be positioned correctly when the timing belt is installed.

Second there's ignition timing which makes the spark plugs fire when the
piston reaches a certain point in its up-and-down motion. Ignition timing
is controlled by the position of the distributor until the engine warms up
when its finely adjusted on modern computer-controlled engines by the
computer.

When you change a timing belt the ignition timing shouldn't be affected.
At least mine wasn't when I changed the timing belt on my car. I did check
the ignition timing after changing the timing belt and it was fine.

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Ryan Underwood - 22 Aug 2005 05:45 GMT
>When you change a timing belt the ignition timing shouldn't be affected.
>At least mine wasn't when I changed the timing belt on my car. I did check
>the ignition timing after changing the timing belt and it was fine.

As a corollary, if you are finding it exceedingly difficult to correctly set
the ignition timing (if the mark will not stay steady under the light), that is
a pretty good indication of a worn or slack timing belt.  Usually the two
aren't related but that is one specific instance where they can be.
SQ - 23 Aug 2005 14:35 GMT
I have another issue...  The vehicle vibrates rather badly in "D" (and
not any other gear)

Could it have something to do with what I did? The engine mount maybe?
I torqued it well enough, I thought.
=AB Paul =BB - 24 Aug 2005 03:12 GMT
> I have another issue...  The vehicle vibrates rather badly in "D" (and
> not any other gear)
>
> Could it have something to do with what I did? The engine mount maybe?
> I torqued it well enough, I thought.

Bad plug wire.  Check 'em while they're hot!
Not more than 5k on the shortest one and not more than 12k on the longest.
SQ - 28 Aug 2005 15:15 GMT
Thank you. I will check it promptly with the voltmeter.
I should probalby replace them as I don't know how many miles/years
they got on them.
=AB Paul =BB - 22 Aug 2005 01:51 GMT
> OK, I got the timing belt set up correctly, except it's one tooth off
> on the camshaft.  It's the best I could do.
>
> But I cannot start the car, it is not getting the spark. I haven't yet
> put the water pump and the alternator belts back on. Is that the reason
> why it doesn't start?  Or is it because it's one tooth off?

If there is no spark, then there is something else wrong.
Something may be unplugged.  Ign.mod? Crank sensor? etc.
Even if the cams were way off, there should still be spark.
The engine probably won't start though.
As you know, the distrib runs off of the left (front) bank.
Check the wires.
Put    ford probe engine    into Google.  There is a lot of info
on the 2.5 available.
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Flats/9755/engine.htm
BTW: running with one cam tooth off will eventually destroy the engine.
SQ - 22 Aug 2005 05:20 GMT
quote ======================
If there is no spark, then there is something else wrong.
Something may be unplugged.  Ign.mod? Crank sensor? etc.
===========================

I redid the timing belts. The second time it was much easier.  I wanted
to test everything and did not put the plastic timing belt cover back
on and the alternator/water pump belt. Well, it wouldn't start. I put
the belts and everything back on - and it started and ran wonderfully.
I think I might have left out the camshaft position sensor.

Anyway, thanks - that's a lot of new info.  I've never done the timing
belts before but it's an interesting (and very frustrating at times)
learning experience.  One thing I learned, I don't want a car where you
need to remove the timing belt to change the water pump, such as this
626!
=AB Paul =BB - 22 Aug 2005 05:31 GMT
> quote ======================
> If there is no spark, then there is something else wrong.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> need to remove the timing belt to change the water pump, such as this
> 626!

Great!  Good that you got it running right.
I used start that engine without the plastic covers also to see if
it ran ok before buttoning up.  There are more than a few engines with
water pumps like that from most mfgs.  You did one of the more easy ones!
Still a great engine though - the 2.5.
 
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