I see various mixes of biodiesel with mineral diesel. About 85% bio,
15% diesel is the most extreme I see. Why is a mixture needed?
I am aware that the gasoline in E85 is to increase volatility for cold
starting, but why the mixtures for biodiesel?
In general, how different is biodiesel from mineral diesel?
HLS@nospam.nix - 25 Aug 2005 17:05 GMT
> I see various mixes of biodiesel with mineral diesel. About 85% bio,
> 15% diesel is the most extreme I see. Why is a mixture needed?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> In general, how different is biodiesel from mineral diesel?
I'm going to make a big mistake and try to answer based on my memory of the
subject, Don.
Viscosity, low temperature stability, and volatility are some of the
problems with these esters
which blending with a little petroleum diesel helps to iron out.
Biodiesel is based upon natural fatty oils which can range from 14 to about
18 carbons in chain length.
They come from the plant or animal sources as a triester with glycerine, and
are rather viscous. They can be
refined including such processes as splitting the triglyceride ester,
releasing the glycerine which is removed
and forming a new monoester.
The new materials are usually methyl, ethyl, or isopropyl esters of the
same fatty acids. They are chemically
a bit different from normal petroleum hydrocarbons.
The chemically unsaturated esters (oleic, for example) are more likely to
stay liquid than a saturated ester
like stearic. Both oleic and stearic have 18 carbons and are the principal
products of many plant and animal
oils. The stearic ester would be more likely to form waxy precipitates in
cold weather, and the petrodiesel
would also help prevent this from happening. If you dont distill the
natural oils (which you dont want to do
for reasons of cost) you would invariably have a mix of oil types, some
desirable, others not.
Don Stauffer - 26 Aug 2005 15:54 GMT
Many thanks. It is resources like this that make this newsgroup so great.
>>I see various mixes of biodiesel with mineral diesel. About 85% bio,
>>15% diesel is the most extreme I see. Why is a mixture needed?
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> for reasons of cost) you would invariably have a mix of oil types, some
> desirable, others not.
Daniel J. Stern - 25 Aug 2005 17:55 GMT
> I see various mixes of biodiesel with mineral diesel. About 85% bio,
> 15% diesel is the most extreme I see. Why is a mixture needed?
It's not needed. It's there because at this point, biodiesel is more
expensive than petro diesel.
> I am aware that the gasoline in E85 is to increase volatility for cold
> starting
Actually, the gasoline in E85 is primarily added for safety reasons:
Ethanol burns with invisible flames in the daylight; gasoline colors the
flames bright yellow-orange.
HLS@nospam.nix - 25 Aug 2005 19:00 GMT
> It's not needed. It's there because at this point, biodiesel is more
> expensive than petro diesel.
True, at the moment, it is cheaper in the USA. Was just in Europe for
my sons wedding, and we all know that European taxes and practices
lead to higher fuel costs. That, coupled with the still rather low value
of the dollar, reflected in a gasoline price of nearly US$8 per US gallon
at the end of July.
If things continue as they are, alcohol and biodiesel may become more
interesting. In fact, if the government incentivated this industry with
tax benefits, it might be much closer now...payoffs should include increased
domestic jobs for the production of these fuels, savings of petroleum for
more strategic uses, lessening of demand from unfriendly foreign sources,
etc... Big oil might not like it, and they hold a powerful stick.
> > I am aware that the gasoline in E85 is to increase volatility for cold
> > starting
>
> Actually, the gasoline in E85 is primarily added for safety reasons:
> Ethanol burns with invisible flames in the daylight; gasoline colors the
> flames bright yellow-orange.
Well said.
Don Stauffer - 26 Aug 2005 15:57 GMT
>>Actually, the gasoline in E85 is primarily added for safety reasons:
>>Ethanol burns with invisible flames in the daylight; gasoline colors the
>>flames bright yellow-orange.
>
> Well said.
But cold weather starting with alcohol is a problem isn't it? Maybe it
wouldn't be with port injection, but I suspect it would be with TBI or
carbs. I know my race car starts like crap until it is warmed up first
time for the evening. That is methanol, but thought volatility of
ethanol is similar to methanol. I need to get pushed a long way before
I start first time each day, even in middle of summer.
Daniel J. Stern - 26 Aug 2005 22:46 GMT
> But cold weather starting with alcohol is a problem isn't it? Maybe it
> wouldn't be with port injection, but I suspect it would be with TBI or
> carbs.
There are no E85-capable TBI or carbureted cars.
Don Stauffer - 27 Aug 2005 14:40 GMT
>>But cold weather starting with alcohol is a problem isn't it? Maybe it
>>wouldn't be with port injection, but I suspect it would be with TBI or
>>carbs.
>
> There are no E85-capable TBI or carbureted cars.
Ah, that pretty well takes care of that. Are TBI cars pretty much
obsolete now?
Ted Mittelstaedt - 28 Aug 2005 10:39 GMT
> >>But cold weather starting with alcohol is a problem isn't it? Maybe it
> >>wouldn't be with port injection, but I suspect it would be with TBI or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Ah, that pretty well takes care of that. Are TBI cars pretty much
> obsolete now?
I think they were obsolete when they were introduced. You can't get
as fine a mixture control with TBI as with multiport, the manifold
interferes
too much.
Ted
Steve W. - 26 Aug 2005 14:52 GMT
> I see various mixes of biodiesel with mineral diesel. About 85% bio,
> 15% diesel is the most extreme I see. Why is a mixture needed?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> In general, how different is biodiesel from mineral diesel?
There are a couple of reasons. One is that biodiesel doesn't like to
ignite in a cold engine very well. Once the temperature drops down below
60 degrees or so it doesn't ignite very well. Another reason for the
blend is that biodiesel turns into a solid mass (think crisco) at
temperatures below 40 degrees unless you heat it up, since very few
vehicles have heated fuel tanks they add regular diesel to keep it
flowing in the cold. I have also been told by a few diesel mechanics
that the biodiesel is hard on the injectors so the added diesel acts as
a buffer for the injectors.