 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2005I'm not using a K&N air filter ever again...
On my 1991 Plymouth Sundance RS 2.5 TBI, I bought a K&N air filter from Autozone (they had to special order it) and have been running it for a little while to see how it performed. K&N claims that you get better air flow with them. Unfortunately, during the time I've been using it, I haven't been having a great experience with it. When I pulled the air box off during a recent oil change to check the air filter, I took the filter out and noticed that I could ACTUALLY see through the little porous holes. Ha..makes me wonder about something. Then..I noticed that there were particles of dirt inside the air filter housing assembly in the center part in the rift by the throttle body. Hmmm.....makes me wonder if the K&N is actually letting dirt through. By Golly I don't want that crap blasted right into my TBI!!! Also, to my dismay, I noticed that there was reddish oil, which appeared to be K&N air filter oil, all over the air filter housing and a little bit on the throttle body and its gasket!!! Ahhhh!!! God knows whether that oil got into my engine or not! Overall, I'm not very happy at all with this filter that K&N put out! So, I decided to go to NAPA and get a regular air filter and use it instead. I now go to NAPA for parts instead of Autozone because I was told that AutoZone hires people from the street, and Advance Auto doesn't seem much better than AutoZone. Anyway, there doesn't seem to be any difference in performance between the NAPA and the K&N. Overall, the K&N apparently doesn't flow much (if any) better than an ordinary filter. I'm not using a K&N air filter in my car ever again. Anyone care to chime in on your experiences with K&N air filters good and bad? > I'm not using a K&N air filter in my car ever again. Sharp fellow. > Anyone care to chime in on your experiences with K&N air filters good > and bad? No experience here, as I'd rather visit a cheap whore than put a K&N on my car. However, you may wish to peruse this: http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm > > I'm not using a K&N air filter in my car ever again. > Sharp fellow. Yep, that's a wise decision. > I'd rather visit a cheap whore than put a K&N on my car. However, you > may wish to peruse this: > http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm Now that's a site worth saving. Thanks. Haven't seen "you pays yer money and takes yer choices/chances" air filter data presented in such clear and objective detail in awhile. Of course, there are going to be those who look at the last plot, don't read the text, and say "See! K&N is better! See!" DS >>>I'm not using a K&N air filter in my car ever again. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > DS Wow! BTW - did anyone notice that there is on exception to the rule that they cited at the end: "This illustrates the apparent trade-offs between optimizing a filter for dirt capturing ability and maximum airflow." The "No Brand" filter was the third best in efficiency, and the second best in intial flow restriction. The only place it comes even close to the bottom of the stack is in accumulative dirt capacity - *BUT* even then, its numbers are up in the top of the data cluster, and then next worse one is way worse. Wonder why they don't identify that filter. They hint at how they calculate "efficiency" without really defining it. Reading between the lines, it appears that it is the amount of dirt retained by the filter over total dirt released into the filter (i.e., sum of dirt accumulated and dirt passed) up to the point of a defined measured restriction. I'm taking my K&N out today. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > >>http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm > > Now that's a site worth saving. Thanks. Haven't seen "you pays yer > > money and takes yer choices/chances" air filter data presented in such > > clear and objective detail in awhile. Of course, there are going to be > > those who look at the last plot, don't read the text, and say "See! > > K&N is better! See!" > Wow! Yeah, wow. > The "No Brand" filter was the third best in efficiency, and the second > best in intial flow restriction. The only place it comes even close to > the bottom of the stack is in accumulative dirt capacity - *BUT* even > then, its numbers are up in the top of the data cluster, and then next > worse one is way worse. Wonder why they don't identify that filter. Good question. It might have been a true white-box item with no possibility of source ID. > They hint at how they calculate "efficiency" without really defining it. > Reading between the lines, it appears that it is the amount of dirt > retained by the filter over total dirt released into the filter (i.e., > sum of dirt accumulated and dirt passed) up to the point of a defined > measured restriction. It would be interesting to read SAE 5011 (or even SAE J726, which is probably more readily available via www.sae.org). The answer is probably given therein. DS Other things I forgot to mention that I noticed wrong with the filter: On the exterior "ribbed" side of the air filter, I noticed on there that the ribs themselves were bent sideways diagonally. I also saw a piece of hair in the interior part inside between two ribs when I pulled the filter out for inspection. Not sure if it was in there before I installed the filter or not, but most likely it was there when it came out of box. So, the flaws summarized go: -excessively oiled -hair in filter -undersized -bent ribs -oversized filtration pores Wonder what kind of manufacturing standards this K&N distributor had? > > >>http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > DS > Wonder what kind of manufacturing standards this K&N distributor had? What makes you think the distributor has anything to do with K&N quality control? Everybody on the group has told you that the K&N concept, product, engineering, and quality are pretty questionable. Not only did I notice the seemingly poor filtering ability of the K&N, I also noticed that the dang filter was a tad too small it seemed like. It was exactly the right shape for my air box but probably just a tad small. When I put it into the air filter housing and put the lid on to try to close it up, I had trouble trying to get the lid down all the way for some reason. I didn't know what was up! It seemed like either the air filter itself was too tall or the circumference was slightly too short. Not sure. After some adjusting, I managed to get that lid all the way on and tightened. Now, as far as the K&N filter oiling is concerned, I wonder if the K&N filter I got from Autozone came with too much oil or something. After running it for some time, it got splashed all in the air filter housing and Throttle Body and on plenum (air box to Throttle Body) gasket. Hmmm...makes me wonder if K&N thinks that their filter really needs help, so they keep trying to advertise it and sell it. >Now, as far as the K&N filter oiling is concerned, I wonder if the K&N I'd hesitate to use ANY oiled filter ahead of an air massflow meter. Especially one of the newer ones with a microchip at the sensor. They can easily be fouled by sticky oil. >filter I got from Autozone came with too much oil or something. After >running it for some time, it got splashed all in the air filter housing >and Throttle Body and on plenum (air box to Throttle Body) gasket. >Hmmm...makes me wonder if K&N thinks that their filter really needs >help, so they keep trying to advertise it and sell it. Having run a K&N in one of my cars for over 200,000km, I can't say that it's caused any issues at all. I didn't buy it for performance reasons; it was due to operating costs with paper filter elements being almost as expensive as a K&N drop-in. Bragging rights about filter efficiency are somewhat "academic". Knowing how much dust gets through the filter is only important if you know how much dust and what particle sizes the engine won't tolerate. To that end, a grading of the dust that got through the filter is important. Note that the fine dust has different proportions of the same particle sizes to coarse dust. i.e. the range of particle sizes is basically the same; but their proportions differ. It's clear from the efficiency tests that the K&N tends to allow more "fine" dust through than coarse (as do all filters). From the test results, in the absence of grading passed particles, the K&N could be passing about half of the sub-2.5 micron particles. Operating environment (which also typifies the composition of the particles) and engine type will determine if that is acceptable.  Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! My biggest Gripe about my K&N air filter was the fact that, after running with it for a little while, there was "visible" amounts of the reddish-purplish air filter oil being scattered around onto the air box and throttle body assembly. As a result, it most likely got mixed with the fuel and air going into the engine! Who knows what effect that had on performance?! Air filter oil sure doesn't make for a good fuel additive!!! ;-( I still have the K&N filter in my room, and the oil on the filter is slightly drippy on the low interior sides now. I couldn't say, though, exactly much dust was getting through. I was only going by what I saw in the rift at the base of the filter housing. As far as I could tell, I at least didn't see any dirt/particles in the throttle body itself. But who knows. > My biggest Gripe about my K&N air filter was the fact that, after > running with it for a little while, there was "visible" amounts of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Air filter oil sure doesn't make for a good fuel additive!!! ;-( The only time I ever used a K&N filter was on a racing go-kart, when the plan was to rebuild the engine after the season anyway. All the same, I feel I have to point out that the amount of oil the filter would have let into the engine would have been so small as to be insignificant. The worry is all the *other* crap it lets into the engine. > I couldn't say, though, exactly much dust was getting through. I was > only going by what I saw in the rift at the base of the filter housing. > As far as I could tell, I at least didn't see any dirt/particles in the > throttle body itself. But who knows. Indeed. SignatureJoseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer skype: jjpfeifferjr >> ...Air filter oil sure doesn't make for a good fuel additive!!! ;-( > > ...All the > same, I feel I have to point out that the amount of oil the filter > would have let into the engine would have been so small as to be > insignificant... That's what I was thinking. Compared to the amount of oil that gets sucked into the plenum thru the PCV system under WOT, the contribution of oil by the air filter is, literally, a drop in the bucket. Can't imagine that its composition is anything that would harm an engine (and it would be a safe bet that the filter mfgr. has satisfied themselves of that). >>I couldn't say, though, exactly much dust was getting through. I was >>only going by what I saw in the rift at the base of the filter housing. >>As far as I could tell, I at least didn't see any dirt/particles in the >>throttle body itself. But who knows. > > Indeed. I specifically remember seeing a warning on the K&N package insert something to the effect that the filter is not effective against or should not be used in "agricultural dust" (their words) environments. That makes sense with the filter construction and with the test results about fine and coarse particles. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') Now, I wonder if I just got a defective K&N filter after all. If it was just a defective one, I may just return it for my money back and go elsewhere to get one, a place that gets them from reputable distributors. This is assuming if I still want to try one out again. There's no excuse for a K&N manufacturer to make a filter undersized, use too much filter oil, and make the porous holes too large. I'm not sure how many other consumers have been hit with defective filters with manufacturing flaws. > >> ...Air filter oil sure doesn't make for a good fuel additive!!! ;-( > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') > Now, I wonder if I just got a defective K&N filter after all. If it was > just a defective one, I may just return it for my money back and go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > sure how many other consumers have been hit with defective filters with > manufacturing flaws. Not likely. K&N are a lot of hype and have been known to cause the exact problems you have seen. GM, Ford have both issued service bulitons about them. Both basically say that if a vehicle comes in with a K&N on it and is showing problems related to the MAS setting codes they are not covered under warrantee, nore is internal engine wear. Info - Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter #04-07-30-013 - (03/05/2004) Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter 2004 and Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks 2003-2004 HUMMER H2 DO THIS DON'T DO THIS First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessively oiled air filter DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may result in: a.. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On b.. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s) c.. Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur. When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern. Transmission or engine driveability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items. This part is from a gentleman who actually TESTED K&N in real world applications. Subj: K & N filters I was responsible for evaluating re-usable air filters for a major construction/mining company that had hundreds of vehicles ranging from large earthmovers to pick-up trucks and salesmen's cars. This study was embarked upon due to the fact that we were spending upwards of $30,000 a MONTH on paper air filters. Using them one time then throwing them away.. I initiated the study in that I was convinced that a K&N type filter or oiled foam would save us many dollars per year in filter savings, man hour savings, and of course engines as these would filter dirt better than paper. (yes, I had read the K&N ads and was a believer) Representative test units were chosen to give us a broad spectrum from cars right through large front end loaders. With each unit we had a long history of oil analysis records so that changes would be traceable. Unfortunately, for me, every single unit having alternative re-usable air cleaners showed an immediate large jump in silicon (dirt) levels with corresponding major increases in wear metals. In one extreme case, a unit with a primary and secondary air cleaner, the secondary (small paper element) clogged before even one day's test run could be completed. This particular unit had a Cummins V-12 engine that had paper / paper on one bank and K&N / paper on the other bank; two completely independent induction systems. The conditions were EXACTLY duplicated for each bank yet the K&N allowed so much dirt to pass through that the small filter became clogged before lunch. The same outcome occurred with oiled foams on this unit. We discontinued the tests on the large pieces almost immediately but continued with service trucks, foremen's vehicles, and my own company car. Analysis results continued showing markedly increased wear rates for all the vehicles, mine included. Test concluded, switched back to paper/glass and all vehicles showed reduction back to near original levels of both wear metals and dirt. I continued with the K&N on my company car out of stubbornness and at 85,000 miles the Chevy 305 V-8 wheezed its last breath. The top end was sanded badly; bottom end was just fine. End of test. I must stress that EVERYONE involved in this test was hoping that alternative filters would work as everyone was sick about pulling out a perfectly good $85 air cleaner and throwing 4 of them away each week per machine... So, I strongly suggest that depending upon an individual's long term plan for their vehicles they simply run an oil analysis at least once to see that the K&N or whatever alternative air filter is indeed working IN THAT APPLICATION... It depends on a person's priorities. If you want performance then indeed the K&N is the way to go but at what cost??? And no, I do not work for a paper or glass air filter manufacturing company nor do I have any affiliation with anything directly or indirectly that could benefit George Morrison as a result.. > > >> ...Air filter oil sure doesn't make for a good fuel additive!!! ;-( > > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > > address with the letter 'x') > This part is from a gentleman who actually TESTED K&N in real world > applications. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > savings, and of course engines as these would filter dirt better than > paper. (yes, I had read the K&N ads and was a believer) I gather this is what happens when a bean counter is put in charge of an operation where a little technical engineering background might not have been a bad idea... This account sounds too pat or just silly. > > This part is from a gentleman who actually TESTED K&N in real world > > applications. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > an operation where a little technical engineering background might not > have been a bad idea... This account sounds too pat or just silly. No this is what happens when you believe the K&N hype and try to save some money by believing how great the K&N is. Then you test them and find out that it is a big load of crap. You may think it sounds silly but it is a true story of someone doing a real field test instead of listening to the "engineers" that are at K&N. > this is what happens when you believe the K&N hype and try to save some > money by believing how great the K&N is. Then you test them and find out > that it is a big load of crap. You may think it sounds silly but it is a > true story of someone doing a real field test instead of listening to > the "engineers" that are at K&N. I think the "engineers" at K&N should get together with the "engineers" at Scamsoil, Splitfire and whoever owns Slick-50 this month. The lot of them could have a big ol' time. I bet the fish stories would be terrific. They could form a social group for pretend-engineers whose best talents lie in lying. They could call it SEMA, perhaps. I think the "engineers" at K&N should get together with the "engineers" at Scamsoil, Splitfire and whoever owns Slick-50 this month. The lot of them could have a big ol' time. I bet the fish stories would be terrific. They could form a social group for pretend-engineers whose best talents lie in lying. They could call it SEMA, perhaps. Don't forget the "Tornado" ha ha. Just watch "Mythbusters" to find out about that one :) . MB you could be the m.c. > > this is what happens when you believe the K&N hype and try to save some > > money by believing how great the K&N is. Then you test them and find out [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > could form a social group for pretend-engineers whose best talents lie in > lying. They could call it SEMA, perhaps. I think you misunderstood me. The fellow who was supposedly in charge of an operation that used $30,000 air filters a week was going by what he heard from ads or even engineers at the K&N company itself? That sounded patently absurd or tremendously incompetent. Come on, if he had any engineering or scientific or any technical background, he would understand "bias." Bias occurs all the time, regardless of the haloes around even so-called doctors or scientists [see huge problems with FDA and NIH]. If they are working for the company, you take their statements with a huge grain of salt as self-serving. I find it difficult to believe someone would make a huge business decision based on a company that is selling the product. He could at least ask the guys next door or independent mechanics or independent labs or even the labs where he had the oil analyzed. They probably knew about K&N filters since they were doing the analysis of the oil in the first place. > I think you misunderstood me. The fellow who was supposedly in charge > of an operation that used $30,000 air filters a week was going by what > he heard from ads or even engineers at the K&N company itself? That > sounded patently absurd or tremendously incompetent. Come on, if he Reread the report. Based on hearsay, he felt it was worth testing the K&N. They conducted a test; K&N flunked. The only decision they made based on the ads was to conduct a study and see if it was true; for the kind of money he's talking about, that's the only responsible thing to do. SignatureJoseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer skype: jjpfeifferjr > > I think you misunderstood me. The fellow who was supposedly in charge > > of an operation that used $30,000 air filters a week was going by what [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the kind of money he's talking about, that's the only responsible > thing to do. Au contraire, it was not responsible, highly irresponsible for a director of operations to base a large test on hearsay. Could he not take one truck and one car for one week or two weeks at first? I used to work in the desert with large machinery, a mining operation. There's a body of experience and previous literature on dust, dirt, and big earth movers. This brings back a memory at the end of the day they'd spray down the machines with a fine mist. It was not plain water but a type of oil? Kerosene? In any case, it's good he did a test. I was just playing skeptic that the story was true in the first place. Maybe part of it. Maybe he did just do the company car and one truck and being from maybe Texas, the story gets, uh, embellished... > In any case, it's good he did a test. I was just playing skeptic that > the story was true in the first place. Maybe part of it. Maybe he did > just do the company car and one truck and being from maybe Texas, the > story gets, uh, embellished... Yeah, there is room to doubt the story really happened. I'd want a larger sample set than just one vehicle, though. SignatureJoseph J. Pfeiffer, Jr., Ph.D. Phone -- (505) 646-1605 Department of Computer Science FAX -- (505) 646-1002 New Mexico State University http://www.cs.nmsu.edu/~pfeiffer skype: jjpfeifferjr >I think you misunderstood me. The fellow who was supposedly in charge >of an operation that used $30,000 air filters a week was going by what >he heard from ads or even engineers at the K&N company itself? That >sounded patently absurd or tremendously incompetent. I hate to say it, but that degree of incompetence seems to be about the rule at a lot of industrial operations. The guys who make the decisions have degrees in business rather than engineering, and the end result are things like this. I saw a dye plant recently where they didn't have a single qualified chemist on staff, just people who followed recipes. --scott Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." > > This part is from a gentleman who actually TESTED K&N in real world > > applications. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > an operation where a little technical engineering background might not > have been a bad idea... This account sounds too pat or just silly. Actually there are two answers for those kinds of environments. The first are washable electrostatic filters, these are getting popular in furnace applications and they really do work. However they clog up lightening fast and have to be constantly washed. There are also electronic electrostatic filters which also work but like the passive ones, they also clog up lightning fast and have to be washed out constantly. The second answer is obvious - use a custom designed prefilter that is physically much larger. Use the same filter for all the vehicles (except the cars of course) Since your buying these in bulk you can probably get them dirt cheap, and you also really don't care if they have great filtering efficiency since the goal is to simply cut down a good percentage of the dust before it reaches the main filter. Operation of motor vehicles in extremely dusty environments has been done before and a lot has been learned about doing it - this guy just needs to do some research. Ted >From the looks of that test AC Delco is the way to go. Unless you're running a Dragster I don't see why anyone would think that some high perf filter is going to make a difference, especially at the expense of filtering ability. But then agin, people are still buying that "Tornado" off television promising a ridiculous 20% more HP. Did anyone see the "Mythbusters" test on that device? MB > But then agin, people are still buying that "Tornado" off television > promising a ridiculous 20% more HP. Did anyone see the "Mythbusters" > test on that device? It's sad that Mythbusters would *have* to do a show on it. But then, they stopped teaching science, logic and critical thinking in US schools long ago. > > But then agin, people are still buying that "Tornado" off television > > promising a ridiculous 20% more HP. Did anyone see the "Mythbusters" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > stopped teaching science, logic and critical thinking in US schools long > ago. I know! The documented HP improvements on all cars, boats, planes, and bicycles -- thanks to the Tornado -- is pure fact, not myth. It should have been disproven on a show called Factbusters. To be fair, *any* power/efficiency improvement resulting from the installation of a remarketed TurbieTwist hair care product is pretty astounding. Toyota MDT in MO I know! The documented HP improvements on all cars, boats, planes, and bicycles -- thanks to the Tornado -- is pure fact, not myth. It should have been disproven on a show called Factbusters. ======= Are you saying you believe that ridiculous hype? I can't tell what you;re trying to say. Ridiculous it is that anyone thinks that that turbulence or tornado spin is going to hold after passing over the throttle plate. Even if it did it woudn't result in anyting because most direct injection cars and EVEN carburated for that matter get much of their mixture from the cyl intake draw not pre-intake. What it ends up doing is DECREASING HP because it blocks a part of the intake. MB from what i can tell, you are both in agreement... that the tornado thingie is bogus... irax. > I know! The documented HP improvements on all cars, boats, planes, > and bicycles -- thanks to the Tornado -- is pure fact, not myth. It [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > MB >It's sad that Mythbusters would *have* to do a show on it. But then, they >stopped teaching science, logic and critical thinking in US schools long >ago. Have primary schools ever actually taught science, as in applying the scientific method? I remember my "science" classes being little more than nature & technology classes. I participated in a science fair in middle school, but aside from that, the only pre-college exposure I got to the scientific method that I can recall came when studying for standardized tests. I find that to be a rather sad state of affairs. > Now, as far as the K&N filter oiling is concerned, I wonder if the K&N > filter I got from Autozone came with too much oil or something. After > running it for some time, it got splashed all in the air filter housing > and Throttle Body and on plenum (air box to Throttle Body) gasket. Yes, it was over-oiled. > Hmmm...makes me wonder if K&N thinks that their filter really needs > help, so they keep trying to advertise it and sell it. Well, its their job to sell filters, I guess. And their filters do have a place in offroading and racing. Just not in street cars, and never under the assumption that they actually CLEAN the air as well as or better than OEM-type filters. Falls under the "no such thing as a free lunch" clause. > No experience here, as I'd rather visit a cheap whore than put a K&N on > my car. However, you may wish to peruse this: > http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm Hmmm. Unless you live in a desert or a dust bowl, that's not very realistic to dump dust into a filter and see how much comes out the other side. And here's a quote from the above document: '....all filters were tested using PTI Course Test Dust. Course dust is more commonly used...' If they can't spell, can they count? Or, like, do tests on stuff? > > No experience here, as I'd rather visit a cheap whore than put a K&N on > > my car. However, you may wish to peruse this: > > http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm > > Hmmm. Unless you live in a desert or a dust bowl, that's not very realistic > to dump dust into a filter and see how much comes out the other side. That's quite a realistic representation of an air filter's wretched existence. Anyhow, ISO and SAE know more about air filter testing than you or I do, so questioning the test protocol is pretty laughable. > And here's a quote from the above document: '....all filters were tested > using PTI Course Test Dust. Course dust is more commonly used...' If > they can't spell, can they count? Or, like, do tests on stuff? Dude, *weak*. >> > No experience here, as I'd rather visit a cheap whore than put >> > a K&N on my car. However, you may wish to peruse this: >> > http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm >> Hmmm. Unless you live in a desert or a dust bowl, that's not very >> realistic to dump dust into a filter and see how much comes out >> the other side. >That's quite a realistic representation of an air filter's wretched >existence. Anyhow, ISO and SAE know more about air filter testing >than you or I do, so questioning the test protocol is pretty >laughable. Neither ISO of SAE _know_ very much at all. Beyond being de-facto technical publishing houses and meeting organizers for their members. Yes; that's pedantic! Standards and comments are in effect provided by members and general public; usually from relevant industry. >> And here's a quote from the above document: '....all filters were >> tested using PTI Course Test Dust. Course dust is more commonly >> used...' If they can't spell, can they count? Or, like, do tests >> on stuff? >Dude, *weak*. It does raise the issue of credibility. Can you trust somebody who's not so meticulous in one respect to be meticulous in others? Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! > > No experience here, as I'd rather visit a cheap whore than put a K&N on > > my car. However, you may wish to peruse this: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > using PTI Course Test Dust. Course dust is more commonly used...' > If they can't spell, can they count? Or, like, do tests on stuff? Since it is correct the way it reads. It is a PTI Course that they used to test the filters. That Course specs the dust used. So if the used the Course Test Dust to do the tests what they wrote is correct. >> > No experience here, as I'd rather visit a cheap whore than put >> > a K&N on my car. However, you may wish to peruse this: >> > http://home.usadatanet.net/%7Ejbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm >> Hmmm. Unless you live in a desert or a dust bowl, that's not very >> realistic to dump dust into a filter and see how much comes out >> the other side. >> And here's a quote from the above document: '....all filters were >> tested using PTI Course Test Dust. Course dust is more commonly >> used...' If they can't spell, can they count? Or, like, do tests >> on stuff? >Since it is correct the way it reads. It is a PTI Course that they used >to test the filters. That Course specs the dust used. So if the used the >Course Test Dust to do the tests what they wrote is correct. Ahem http://www.powdertechnologyinc.com/docs/pages/history_PTI_involve.html Look for the word "coarse". Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! another person knocking the ZONE cuz of a airfilter NOBODY TWISTED YOUR ARM ON BUYING IT live and learn WHA WHA WHA But. Autozone was the one who ordered it. Now, I have no idea with distributor they ordered it from. Some distributors could have faulty products. You never know. Apparently, the K&N filter I got probably came with too much filter oil (as it got slathered all over my throttle body, filter housing, and gasket). Another thing: Although the filter was the right shape, it seemed to be a little undersized for my air filter housing. I struggled some to get the thing on right because I couldn't get the lid to go down all the way at first! This is not the only bad experience I had with Autozone. I bought an A/C compressor from them fairly recently (the same one I bought the K&N from), and it was defective. I took it to the shop to have it installed, and the compressor locked up when they finished the installation and the oil/freon charging. The mechanics said the compressor was bad and told me to return it. Another time, an employee was kinda rude to me. Almost 2 years ago, I got two bad thermostats from Autozone. The first one I got stuck closed and my car overheated. The second I got from there seemed ok at first and then started sticking closed causing my temp gauge to go to Hot at times. Then, it failed in the open position as my temp gauge then wouldn't move past C. I replaced it with a Stant and no problems after that. Recently, I had to get another alternator belt. Well, the Zone gave me the wrong belt. But. it did fit but in such a way that it turned my water pump in the opposite direction. I tried that belt. Then I went driving and later on a trip. My temp gauge seemed fine at first but the longer I was cruising, the temp rose to 2/3 mark. When I stopped, the gauge went to 3/4 to H. When I got home from the trip, I took that belt off, returned it, and put my old belt back on. I made sure it was more tight. My car runs cool now. The old belt just wasn't tight enough. > But. Autozone was the one who ordered it. Now, I have no idea with > distributor they ordered it from. Some distributors could have faulty [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > off, returned it, and put my old belt back on. I made sure it was more > tight. My car runs cool now. The old belt just wasn't tight enough. After working at an Advance Auto Parts, which seems to be a small tier above Autozone, I can attest to the poor quality the store has. Not only are the parts bargain-basement stuff but some defective parts that have been returned by a customer make it back onto the shelves. > another person knocking the ZONE cuz of a airfilter NOBODY TWISTED > YOUR ARM ON BUYING IT live and learn WHA WHA WHA Dude, what the hell. What's your problem? He's given us good advice after a bad experience. > > another person knocking the ZONE cuz of a airfilter NOBODY TWISTED > > YOUR ARM ON BUYING IT live and learn WHA WHA WHA > > Dude, what the hell. What's your problem? > > He's given us good advice after a bad experience. Autozone may be a lot of things, but to blame them for a K&N filter that the OP wanted is a bit out of line. Autozone has some shitdreadful products, especially their remanufactured parts if concensus means anything. But they also have some name brand stuff. > Autozone has some shitdreadful products... That's for damn sure! Oh, wait... you said products. I thought you said employees. Toyota MDT in MO no problem a.s wip the dude ramming the zone so screw you and him last i herd this is free speach so their are my 1% if you got a clue what that means and he could have bought it from JEGS? NAPA? OR WHO EVER BUT HE DECIDED TO GO TO THE ZONE face it the guy wanted xtra power buy adding a after market filter witch you must clean all the time sh.t he should have did some research before buying it . instead he decide's to bag the zone cuz they sold it to him WHA WHA WHA YOU BOTH DUMB -ASS'S 23. Masospaghetti Sep 10, 6:05 pm show options Newsgroups: rec.autos.tech From: Masospaghetti <gtg803xREM...@mail.gatech.edu> - Find messages by this author Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 21:05:07 -0400 Local: Sat, Sep 10 2005 6:05 pm Subject: Re: I'm not using a K&N air filter ever again... Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show original | Report Abuse tudysm...@yahoo.com wrote: > another person knocking the ZONE cuz of a airfilter NOBODY TWISTED > YOUR ARM ON BUYING IT live and learn WHA WHA WHA Dude, what the hell. What's your problem? He's given us good advice after a bad experience. > no problem a.s wip the dude ramming the zone so screw you and him > last i herd this is free speach so their are my 1% if you got a clue [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > he decide's to bag the zone cuz they sold it to him WHA WHA WHA YOU > BOTH DUMB -ASS'S Thanks for that clever, mispelled, and top-posted reply. My compliments to your kindergarten teacher. Toyota MDT in MO P.S. Fisher Price makes a newsreader program? I'll be damned! > > no problem a.s wip the dude ramming the zone so screw you and > > him last i herd this is free speach so their are my 1% if you [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks for that clever, mispelled, and top-posted reply. My > compliments to your kindergarten teacher. You mean he made it that far? You know where they hire people at AutoZone from? The Street! My mechanics think so, too. Advance Auto isn't much better either, but my experiences with them are generally a little more on the positive side. NAPA has been the best, and Carquest ok. Their people are knowledgeable. After my fairly recent bad A/C Compressor experience from there, No more Autozone for me. I bought an A/C compressor from there to replace mine. God Almighty!!! That thing was defective. The employees misinformed me about everything. I took the compressor to the shop to have it installed. The mechanics told me that a couple of the threads came stripped as they were able to take some metal filings out of the thread holes. They rethreaded them anyway. Then they installed the compressor/oil. After the installation, they charged it with oil/freon, but the thing locked up on them. So, they told me the thing was bad and told me to return it to "the Zone" for a refund. There's more. I got two bad thermostats, and they gave me the wrong alternator belt from there one time. The wrong belt caused my engine to overheat as did the two defective thermostats at another time. > no problem a.s wip the dude ramming the zone so screw you and him > last i herd this is free speach so their are my 1% if you got a clue [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > He's given us good advice after a bad experience. >no problem a.s wip the dude ramming the zone so screw you and him >last i herd this is free speach so their are my 1% if you got a clue Free speech is at best entertaining if what you say is incomprehensible. >what that means and he could have bought it from JEGS? NAPA? OR WHO >EVER BUT HE DECIDED TO GO TO THE ZONE face it the guy wanted xtra >power buy adding a after market filter witch you must clean all the >time sh.t he should have did some research before buying it . instead >he decide's to bag the zone cuz they sold it to him WHA WHA WHA YOU >BOTH DUMB -ASS'S I don't think you'll ever make it out of the petri dish. Signature/"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia \ / ASCII ribbon campaign | I'm a .signature virus! X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature / \ and postings | to help me spread! > >what that means and he could have bought it from JEGS? NAPA? OR WHO > >EVER BUT HE DECIDED TO GO TO THE ZONE face it the guy wanted xtra [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I don't think you'll ever make it out of the petri dish. Just to be sure, leave his residence (scientific microscope) out in the sun so the focal lens gives him a really good crispy tan... Toyota MDT in MO > Anyone care to chime in on your experiences with K&N air filters good > and bad? Ran one for rougly 170,000 miles on a Chrysler 3.5L v6. Still running fine with a total of 230,000 miles on the engine- no oil consumption between changes. Does it prove anything? No. Does a K&N filter as well as paper? Hell no. Would the engine last EVEN longer if I'd used paper? Its going to make 1/4 million miles EASY, and if I keep the car long enough will likely make well over 300,000 miles without opening the engine at all. Who gives a flip at that point? Would I recommend a K&N? Not likely, and then only in certain circumstances. If your car has a really restrictive/undersized air filter, then it *might* be a performance benefit at wide-open throttle and max RPM. Otherwise, just by good Purolator paper filters and be happy. <<snip>> I now go to NAPA for parts instead of Autozone because I was > told that AutoZone hires people from the street, and Advance Auto > doesn't seem much better than AutoZone. <<snip>> NAPA hires people off the street too. Go into one with your hair combed and wear a clean shirt. Ask for an application for employment. Go home and answer the phone when it rings. Decide if you really want to work in an auto parts store. There is no official certification required to work at NAPA. They just have to like what they see in an interview - just like everywhere else. I worked at a NAPA store when I was still in high school. I was hired when I handed my application to the manager (who I'd never met before)... didn't even have to wait for a phone call. Cheers, - JJ Wasn't really sure about that. Maybe all of them hire people from the street to some degree. My mechanics were kinda biased I guess about that because they support NAPA. They "always" use Napa parts when they do vehicle repairs. I think one of the reasons why they themselves thought AutoZone hired people from the street was because of my bad A/C Compressor experience. I bought the compressor from Autozone, and it was found defective by the mechanics when they installed it (it locked up on them). On the other hand, my father doesn't think too highly of Autozone either and thought that they hired people from the street as well. He does think real highly of Napa and Advance Auto, though. I started think that way of Autozone myself, too, because of my bad alternator belt, thermostats, K&N filter, and A/C compressor experiences. > <<snip>> > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Cheers, > - JJ >thought that they hired people from the street as well. He does think >real highly of Napa and Advance Auto, though. I started think that way >of Autozone myself, too, because of my bad alternator belt, >thermostats, K&N filter, and A/C compressor experiences. I went through three Autozone "Duralast" ball joints before demanding my money back and buying a pair of Moogs at O'Reilly (for almost 2X the price). Haven't had a problem since. Aside from that debacle I've had pretty good luck with Autozone parts as I can recall. That may be because I usually end up buying brand name parts from them just because they have the best price and decent warranty support. I do try to avoid going there first for anything but the most basic chemicals, screws, etc, because of exactly what was mentioned - the employees are, with the occasional exception, clueless. i aint going to disagree and i am not going to agree either because have a K&N air filter in my car and when i put it in you felt th difference not a big one right enough but it did help cheers anyway and all of the graphs basicly said that K&N are **** lo but then ill get a different one and see if it is bette -- mike |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.