OK, so I'm an engineer, not a chemist... but while stuck in traffic
today behind yet another oil-burning minivan (guess the mfgr - go
ahead) was idly wondering about something. Oil is basically a
hydrocarbon, yes? So why, in this day and age of emission controls and
oxygen sensors and closed-loop engine controls does an oil burner still
emit voluminous clouds of noxious smoke? Would it not be possible to
design a lubricant that meets the appropriate lubricant specs but also
burns cleanly in a gasoline or Diesel ICE? Would be a lovely way to
keep older vehicles on the road without destroying the environment or
offending fellow commuters... Especially with Diesels I don't see the
big issue, I thought a Diesel could run on damn near anything with an
appropriate cetane rating. In fact, I've heard tell of Diesels
"running away" when an older engine with a leaky head ingests enough
oil to keep the process going without any actual fuel being introduced.
anyone with more knowledge or expertise care to comment?
nate
mst - 14 Sep 2005 01:19 GMT
> So why, in this day and age of emission controls and
> oxygen sensors and closed-loop engine controls does an oil burner
> still emit voluminous clouds of noxious smoke?
I think you're confusing the "cloud" of smoke with
"noxious smoke". Think about diesel engines - many
output smoke as a daily routine.

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pater - 14 Sep 2005 02:06 GMT
pater - 14 Sep 2005 02:09 GMT
Heard of using synthetic in such situations, higher flash point,
allegedly less or no smoke. A "runaway" diesel is usually the result of
blowby (rings).
Don Stauffer - 14 Sep 2005 14:48 GMT
> Heard of using synthetic in such situations, higher flash point,
> allegedly less or no smoke. A "runaway" diesel is usually the result of
> blowby (rings).
There are two kinds of diesel smoke- bluish white smoke, which is oil
vapor with same cause as blue-white smoke in SI engine. However, black
smoke is due to incomplete combustion in combustion chamber.
=AB Paul =BB - 14 Sep 2005 02:34 GMT
> OK, so I'm an engineer, not a chemist... but while stuck in traffic
> today behind yet another oil-burning minivan (guess the mfgr - go
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> nate
Thinking back to my courses in organic chemistry:
Any good antifriction material will act the same way - molecules
slipping over each other. The larger the molecule the better the
antifriction ability. It takes energy and oxygen to break down and then
oxidize the smaller parts. Injecting oxygen into the system at several
hot points should oxidize the broken HC molecules...
Hmmm... sounds like a catcon witn an AIR system.
Daniel J. Stern - 14 Sep 2005 04:39 GMT
> OK, so I'm an engineer, not a chemist... but while stuck in traffic
> today behind yet another oil-burning minivan (guess the mfgr - go
> ahead)
It was a Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth with a 3.0-litre Bitsushitti V6 engine
and less than 70k miles on it.
> So why, in this day and age of emission controls and oxygen sensors and
> closed-loop engine controls does an oil burner still emit voluminous
> clouds of noxious smoke?
The O2S and the rest of the closed-loop engine management system has no
effect on the amount of smoke produced by an oil-burning engine. The
catcon consumes a great deal of the smoke, but a great deal more still
remains.
> Would it not be possible to
> design a lubricant that meets the appropriate lubricant specs but also
> burns cleanly in a gasoline or Diesel ICE?
No.
> Would be a lovely way to keep older vehicles on the road without
> destroying the environment
Better and less expensive: Fix the older vehicles so that they don't burn
oil.
> I've heard tell of Diesels "running away" when an older engine with a
> leaky head ingests enough oil to keep the process going without any
> actual fuel being introduced.
Well mostly when they ingest enough oil via worn-out rings, yes. Briggs &
Stratton lawnmower engines can run on a dry fuel tank, too, when the
engine's worn enough and the oil's contaminated enough.
Kruse - 14 Sep 2005 14:28 GMT
Daniel J. Stern wrote:> >
> Well mostly when they ingest enough oil via worn-out rings, yes. Briggs &
> Stratton lawnmower engines can run on a dry fuel tank, too, when the
> engine's worn enough and the oil's contaminated enough.
Long before there was such a thing as the EPA, Detroit was making the
two-stroke
diesel. This engine put out lots emissions, made huge amounts of noise
and never failed to pass up the diesel pump. Anyway, these engines were
notorious for sucking oil past the rings and running wide open without
having a drop of diesel in the fuel tank. The manufacturer was smart to
put an air flapper in the intake so that the operator could shut off
the air to stop the engine in an emergency.
So, yes, it can easily happen.
Steve - 14 Sep 2005 16:13 GMT
> Long before there was such a thing as the EPA, Detroit was making the
> two-stroke
> diesel. This engine put out lots emissions, made huge amounts of noise
> and never failed to pass up the diesel pump.
Or the oil can. I did a job on an all-Detroit Diesel powered research
ship a number of years ago. Two 12-v-71 generator engines, an 8-v-71
pierside/backup generator, two 12-v-71 thruster engines, a number of
3-71 inline threes and6-71 inline sixes for hydraulic pumps and cranes,
and a 12-v-149TI quad-turbo 4-stroke for the main thruster. I heard
that "Detroit Diesel scream" in my nightmares for months afterward.
Nothing grates on the nerves quite like that racket. Anyway, the ship's
engineer confided that the in-port generator engine (the 8-V-71,
basically a Grehound bus engine hooked to a generator) burned about 5
GALLONS of lubricating oil per day. The 12-V-71s burned around 7-9
gallons of lubricating oil each per day.
Don Stauffer - 14 Sep 2005 14:46 GMT
> OK, so I'm an engineer, not a chemist... but while stuck in traffic
> today behind yet another oil-burning minivan (guess the mfgr - go
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> nate
One problem with this is that most of the oil emission is NOT from
burning oil, it is oil vapor. We use the term "burning" somewhat
colloquially. Pour cooking oil on a hot frying pan. See the somewhat
bluish white vapor? Most of it is not combusted (burned) oil.
What happens to most of the oil in an SI engine is that the oil reaches
the boiling point after touching hot metal, boils off, comes out the
exhaust or breather, and cools enough to start condensing in very small
droplets.
Situation in a diesel is different. Here, the fuel (oil) is indeed
partially (actually- mostly) burned, but some carbon particles remain.
Believe me the industry has spent many man years- probably man
centuries- trying to reduce or eliminate smoke (carbon particulate
emission). If you can come up with a way, you can achieve fame and
fortune, but it is not an easy task.
Back to spark ignition- if you can come up with a lubricant that will
lubricate as well as oil, but has a boiling point higher than any metal
temperature it is likely to achieve, this would be a great thing.
However, years of trying so far haven't worked. This is one of the main
roadblocks keeping people from productizing adiabatic engines.
shakiro - 15 Sep 2005 00:10 GMT
[snip>
> Situation in a diesel is different. Here, the fuel (oil) is indeed
> partially (actually- mostly) burned, but some carbon particles remain.
> Believe me the industry has spent many man years- probably man
> centuries- trying to reduce or eliminate smoke (carbon particulate
> emission). If you can come up with a way, you can achieve fame and
> fortune, but it is not an easy task.
Peugeot designed and patented something as simple as a filter.
It works fabulously well, only most car manufacturers chose not to apply
it because it costs a little money.
[snip>
shakiro
John S. - 14 Sep 2005 15:56 GMT
> OK, so I'm an engineer, not a chemist... but while stuck in traffic
> today behind yet another oil-burning minivan (guess the mfgr - go
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> "running away" when an older engine with a leaky head ingests enough
> oil to keep the process going without any actual fuel being introduced.
I don't think visible smoke is the real problem. Even if we would
design a lubricant that would burn invisibly, it would still be burning
and polluting. The real question I think is whether the owners of
vehicles with worn out engines should be required to repair the the
engine or take it off the road.
> anyone with more knowledge or expertise care to comment?
>
> nate
Steve - 14 Sep 2005 16:04 GMT
> OK, so I'm an engineer, not a chemist... but while stuck in traffic
> today behind yet another oil-burning minivan (guess the mfgr - go
> ahead)
Engine by Mitsubishi, no doubt. ;-)
> would it not be possible to
> design a lubricant that meets the appropriate lubricant specs but also
> burns cleanly in a gasoline or Diesel ICE?
Synthetic oils (at least Mobil 1) hardly smoke at all when used in an
oil burner. HOWEVER- who would pay the $$ to feed synthetic oils to an
egregious oil-burning engine? Thats how I even found out that synths
don't smoke. I switched my tired old 300,000 mile '66 383 back over to
conventional oil when oil consumption got out of hand, and it became an
instant smoker. Put it back on Mobil 1 (just to see...) and the smoke
quit. Same grade oil, same RATE of consumption- just no smoke with
synthetic. I retired the engine not long after that and built up a 440
to go in its place.
Aside from that, I'll bet that even though they don't smoke, synthetics
still pollute quite a bit when burned in a gasoline engine. A fluid with
the long-chain polymers needed to lubricate well just isn't going to
burn very completely in an engine optimized for gasoline (I'm not a
chemist either, just an educated guess).