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Car Forum / Driving, Maintenance, Tuning / Maintenance and Repair / September 2005

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DO-IT-YOURSELF WHEEL ALIGNMENT

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Syl - 17 Sep 2005 21:17 GMT
Hi!

Did somebody have some informations to self align wheels...
-Web sites
-Books
-Ect...

Thanks.
Shep - 17 Sep 2005 21:52 GMT
You can get a very general idea of toe in with a tape measure, by measuring
the distance between the front of the wheels to the rear of the wheels
subtract the difference to get toe in or out, not accurate and difficult on
some cars. Camber gages can check camber using a magnetic head on the wheel
hub, again not precise because the wheels must be dead straight ahead.
Google your quest for additional info.
> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thanks.
Jon C - 18 Sep 2005 02:30 GMT
> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thanks.

Isn't it worth the $50 to get the local shop to get it exactly right...?
shakiro - 18 Sep 2005 19:08 GMT
>> Hi!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Isn't it worth the $50 to get the local shop to get it exactly right...?

If there is one ...
Sometimes I'm on (not 'in' because it's a bunch of islands) The
Philippines, and there in the middle of nowhere there's nobody to align my
truck, let alone the automatic tools to do it.

shakiro
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Sep 2005 19:25 GMT
> If there is one ...
> Sometimes I'm on (not 'in' because it's a bunch of islands) The
> Philippines, and there in the middle of nowhere there's nobody to align my
> truck, let alone the automatic tools to do it.
>
> shakiro

I know what you mean,Shakiro.. Had a grass hut 4 wheel align my Passat in
the nether parts of Brasil,
with string, etc.  It worked okay.

By the way, by daugher in law is from Cavite (or Cabite)..  Are you near
there?
shakiro - 18 Sep 2005 21:27 GMT
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:25:43 +0000, HLS wrote:

>> If there is one ...
>> Sometimes I'm on (not 'in' because it's a bunch of islands) The
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I know what you mean,Shakiro.. Had a grass hut 4 wheel align my Passat in
> the nether parts of Brasil,

Where in Brasil? Fala portugues?

> with string, etc.  It worked okay.
>
> By the way, by daugher in law is from Cavite (or Cabite)..  Are you near
> there?

Sounds familiar, at the mo I'm in Europe though. Cavite (they pronounce
the 'v' as a 'b' because of the Spanish occupation of some hundreds of
years) sounds familiar, but when I'm there, I'm on Mindanao, and Cavite is
on the other big island, Luzon, near Manilla and Quezon City.

shakiro
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Sep 2005 22:07 GMT
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:25:43 +0000, HLS wrote:

> Where in Brasil? Fala portugues?

Eu morei no Salvador, Bahia ao norte de Rio de Janeiro. Falo, mas faz muito
tempo, e tenho
esquecido muito.
shakiro - 18 Sep 2005 22:55 GMT
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:07:04 +0000, HLS wrote:

>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:25:43 +0000, HLS wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> tempo, e tenho
> esquecido muito.

Ah! Muito legal amigo! Gostei muito de Salvador, Pelourinho e tal :)
E o que eh que a bahiana tem?

grande abraco,

shakiro
HLS@nospam.nix - 19 Sep 2005 01:23 GMT
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:07:04 +0000, HLS wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> shakiro

Ela tem cora(s)ão, belleza, e a melhor bu(s)eta en todo o mundo...
Gostei muito de Salvador tambem:>)
shakiro - 19 Sep 2005 06:17 GMT
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:23:59 +0000, HLS wrote:

> "shakiro" <shakiro@shaka.khan> wrote in message

[snip>

>> Ah! Muito legal amigo! Gostei muito de Salvador, Pelourinho e tal :)
>> E o que eh que a bahiana tem?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Ela tem cora(s)ão, belleza, e a melhor bu(s)eta en todo o mundo...
> Gostei muito de Salvador tambem:>)

Isso, ela tem 'o jeito' :)

What were you doing there? I've been visiting Brasil for various years as
a holiday location, made a lot of friends and in 2000 travelled
around for 5 months on a (very) long holiday.

shakiro
HLS@nospam.nix - 19 Sep 2005 13:18 GMT
> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:23:59 +0000, HLS wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> shakiro

I lived there for over a year, working in the chemical industry.  They
indeed have the 'jeito'.
It is very dangerous there now, a friend tells me.  Shame, because it is a
wonderful place
with spirit, lust for life.
shakiro - 19 Sep 2005 18:33 GMT
On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 12:18:43 +0000, HLS wrote:

>> On Mon, 19 Sep 2005 00:23:59 +0000, HLS wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> wonderful place
> with spirit, lust for life.

Yes, it's a wonderful place, but if you take care of where (and especially
when) you go, nobody will hurt you.
Same goes for Rio, Sao Paulo, Recife, Manaus, Fortaleza etc.
Wonderful people...

shakiro
Rex B - 21 Sep 2005 21:13 GMT
>> Hi!
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Isn't it worth the $50 to get the local shop to get it exactly right...?

Every $50 alignment I've witnessed was a thinly-disguised ploy to sell
unneeded repair.  Also, if you want your car aligned to non-OE specs,
for performance reasons, many shops will not touch it.
HLS@nospam.nix - 21 Sep 2005 21:18 GMT
.

> > Isn't it worth the $50 to get the local shop to get it exactly right...?
>
> Every $50 alignment I've witnessed was a thinly-disguised ploy to sell
> unneeded repair.  Also, if you want your car aligned to non-OE specs,
> for performance reasons, many shops will not touch it.

Not in this little town to the east of you, Rex.  Costs $48 in an
independent
shop which I have used several times with good results.
Rex B - 21 Sep 2005 22:30 GMT
> .
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> independent
> shop which I have used several times with good results.

I'll agree with that. The last time I paid for an alignment was at an
independent frame shop in Greenville Texas. I asked for 1-degree neg
camber on my Astro, and that's what I got, for less than $50.   I think
generally if you go to an independent, you are more likely to get what
you pay for.
   When I was autocrossing, it was easy to find a good alignment guy -
just ask around at any event.
chris - 22 Sep 2005 16:37 GMT
>>> Hi!
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> unneeded repair.  Also, if you want your car aligned to non-OE specs,
> for performance reasons, many shops will not touch it.

True with Sears. Got two new radials and an alignment. 10,000
miles later the right side tire had innermost tread worn bald.
HLS@nospam.nix - 23 Sep 2005 00:32 GMT
> True with Sears. Got two new radials and an alignment. 10,000
> miles later the right side tire had innermost tread worn bald.

Now that you mention Shitteaux Sears, my daughter took her Nissan
there several years ago for an alignment.  They told her he car couldn't
be aligned because the frame was bent, and charged her the fee anyway.

This is when I found the frame shop in Houston.  Took the car there, and
Virgil aligned it with no problem.  He said Sears was full of crap..they
just
didn't know how to do the job.  Now, this frame shop COULD have bent
the frame and realigned the chassis if needed, but it was NOT needed.

Sears swallows.
shiden_kai - 18 Sep 2005 06:02 GMT
> Did somebody have some informations to self align wheels...
> -Web sites
> -Books
> -Ect...

Go out and get a second job for one day.  Take the money
that you make on that one day and get an alignment done
at a shop.  There....that's the best info you will get.  Anyone
who tells you to go get a tape measure or any other sort of
half assed measuring tools is just wasting your time.

Ian
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Sep 2005 13:54 GMT
 Anyone
> who tells you to go get a tape measure or any other sort of
> half assed measuring tools is just wasting your time.
>
> Ian

Someone posted recently that alignment could in fact be done reasonably
accurately with simple tools.

I wouldn't want to risk a set of good tires, and possibly my life, on
anything
but the best, but to understand how such a simple alignment process could
work would be interesting and edifying.
JazzMan - 18 Sep 2005 14:43 GMT
>   Anyone
> > who tells you to go get a tape measure or any other sort of
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> but the best, but to understand how such a simple alignment process could
> work would be interesting and edifying.

Basically you need to set up references to the car, I use
two exactly parallel strings, one on either side of the car,
strung tightly between two pieces of conduit, one at each
end of the car, set at axle centerline height on four
jackstands. Meauring from the string to the centerline
of the car or centerline of the front and rear suspensions,
I get the strings perfectly parallel to each other and with
the car centered between them.

Beforehand, I jack up each wheel individually, keeping the
weight of the car on the suspension, and spin the wheel,
using chalk against the center of
the tread to make a mark around 1/4" wide all the way around
the circumference of the tire. Then, I use a scribe resting
against a jackstand to make a very thin line in the middle
of the chalk by spinning the wheel again. To test that the
scribe line is planar, I spin the wheel yet again and observe
the mark in reference to a fixed object placed adjacent to
the tire tread. If the mark wavers or moves at all then I
rechalk and rescribe. With practice I get it the first time
nine out of ten times. The human eye is capable of seeing
one thousandth's of an inch movement relative to another
non-moving object, that's close enough for an alignment.

Next, I jounce the suspension while
rolling the car forward and backward. This settles out the
suspension. From there, taking measurements for toe to the
scribe marks is easy, with a tape measure marked in 16ths
you can easily get 1/32" resolution by interpolating. To
check camber I use a cheapie camber guage from Sears that
I calibrated against a known perfectly vertical surface.
Now, the cheap guages are only marked in whole degrees, and
with interpolation about the best to expect is 1/2 degrees,
but for the cars I drive that have a tolerance band one
degree wide this is perfectly fine.

Checking castor is a bit more complex, you'll need turn or
swivel plates because what you do is measure the camber change
as the wheel is turned and then calculate the castor from that.
For turn plates I use two pieces of 1/4" steel 12" on a side for
each wheel, with grease between the two plates. This allows the
top plate to slide/rotate against the bottom plate fairly
easily. I used a protractor to verify that I turn the wheels
the same degrees relative to the centerline of the car in each
direction, generally 20° each way from straight ahead. You'll
find the formula on this page: http://quadesl.com/miata_alignment.shtml

There's nothing inherently better with a machine alignment over
doing it yourself. What the machines do is to allow a technician
to align many cars in one day, very quickly, do all the calculations
automatically with no risk of calculation error, and be able to
automatically print out before and after spec sheets. The machines
are wonderful for increasing productivity in the shop, but alignments
were being done long before computers ever existed. A DIY alignment
can be just as good for the tires and handling of a car as a machine
alignment, but it will take many hours to do and every step should be
double checked to reduce the chance of error. The reason I do my own
is because it's a learning experience, I can do it when I have time
rather than rearranging my schedule to fit a shop's hours of business,
and because I enjoy working on my car.

JazzMan
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JazzMan - 18 Sep 2005 14:13 GMT
> > Did somebody have some informations to self align wheels...
> > -Web sites
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Ian

Actually, with a good tape measure, some jack stands, conduit,
fine string, turn plates, a calculator, a good understanding of
how front and rear end geometry works, and half a day he
could do a pretty good alignment. It wuold be a better
use of his time to pay a pro to align it, though.

JazzMan
Signature

**********************************************************
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
**********************************************************
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
**********************************************************

=AB Paul =BB - 18 Sep 2005 16:40 GMT
> > Did somebody have some informations to self align wheels...
> > -Web sites
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Ian

Rant follows:
In 25 years in Houston I have yet to find a shop that has
techs that are capable of doing an alignment or will take the
time to do it correctly.  I put front struts on earlier this year,
took my car to a supposedly good alignment shop and it comes back
with neg camber on the left and pos camber on the right.
I could stand back from the car and see the problem without
aid of machines.  I ended up re-doing the alignment myself in
the driveway.  $75 wasted... again.
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Sep 2005 17:15 GMT
"« Paul »" <"« Paul »"@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> Rant follows:
> In 25 years in Houston I have yet to find a shop that has
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> aid of machines.  I ended up re-doing the alignment myself in
> the driveway.  $75 wasted... again.

There used to be a really good frame shop out on Wallisville Road that could
align just about anything.  They had machines big enough to straighten 18
wheelers,
trailers, etc.  Virgil was one of the better mechanics.

Don't know if they are still there, but will have a look at the phone book
in case
you might need them in the future.

Were not expensive either.
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Sep 2005 18:55 GMT
Rant,
I couldnt find them in the online phone book.  Next time I pop down to
Houston I may go by there
and see if they are still in business.  IMHO, they were some of the best.

Going east on Wallisville Road, you turned left on the first road past the
landfill, and the shop was a block
or two on the right.
=AB Paul =BB - 18 Sep 2005 18:59 GMT
> "« Paul »" <"« Paul »"@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
> > Rant follows:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Were not expensive either.

Great!  Thank you for the info.
Where are you located?
I am off I-10  Fry/Mason in Katy, work in the Heights.
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Sep 2005 20:59 GMT
Where are you located?
I am off I-10  Fry/Mason in Katy, work in the Heights.¨

At one time, I lived in the Sheldon area.  Most recently I commuted to
Houston and lived off Westheimer near Beltway 8.  I retired last October
and live near Nacogdoches, but still come down occasionally for business,
consulting, or just for the wife and I to have a little R&R.
N8N - 18 Sep 2005 19:03 GMT
> > Did somebody have some informations to self align wheels...
> > -Web sites
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Ian

You're implying that there's a competent shop nearby.

I remember arguing with a local shop regarding my '56 Golden Hawk; the
mechanic stated that he couldn't adjust the caster because his
alignment rack said that a '56 Studebaker had non-adjustable caster,
despite the fact that I had a copy of the appropriate section of the
shop manual sitting on the front seat of the car with specs and
adjustment procedures.  Needless to say, when I got my '55 coupe done,
I went to a tire shop with an "old car guy" behind the counter.  (now
there were issues with that as well, but not due to the mechanic...
long story...)

nate
HLS@nospam.nix - 18 Sep 2005 19:24 GMT
There WAS a really good shop in Houston, and I hope it is still there.  I'll
look the next time I drive
down (within the next couple of weeks, most likely).
KjunRaven - 18 Sep 2005 13:56 GMT
"Syl" <syl.news2@sympatico.ca> wrote in news:fR_We.4549$6Z1.1190137
@news20.bellglobal.com:

> Hi!
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Thanks.

as stated, a tape measure will give a fair estimate on toe-in....ask
friends and family for insight on GOOD align. shop or ask shops in town
that dont have a front end machine who they TRUST (they have to get there
aligns. somewhere after parts replacements and then they have to stand
behind the job).....as far as quicky algn shops (sears, firestone, etc.)
from what ive seen most of there techs should be flipping
burgers..........IMHO, kjun
Mark - 24 Sep 2005 05:10 GMT
For toe in toe out....

set up a laser pointer  so that it shines a beam across the front of
the car about 1 foot off the ground

mount a mirror on a STRAIGHT piece of pipe

hold the pipe against the sidewall of the left tire and align the laser
pointer so that the mirror reflects the beam directly back at the laser
pointer

No do not move the laser pointer

move the pipe to the right wheel and hold the pipe againstsidewall of
the tire

If the two tires are parallel, the laser pointer beam will again
reflect directly back to the laser pointer when the the pipe is held
against either wheel

adjust the toe as needed

avoid holding the pipe against the bottom of the tire due to buldge

pipe must be straight for this to be accurate

with a little geometry you can figure out how many inches of beam
deflection  correspond to how many degrees

Many cars are aligned for a slight toe in when stationary

Mark
 
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